Triad Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[KJHburg]

I disagree this road was and is still needed.  It was not widened but may safer.  Plus it was already below grade through most of downtown so it would have had massive infill of dirt to make it even with the rest of the surrounding land.  The traffic counts in the last year are not really fair comparisons as so many are still working from home and so forth and university students were not attending in person last spring.    I think it is vital roadway through the city.  

[jthomas]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:08 PM, nicholas said:

Still think it was a huge missed opportunity to not remove BUS 40 from downtown W-S.  Shutting down the highway for two years did not cripple the surrounding infrastructure, and from looking at traffic counts it appears that the bulk of BUS 40 traffic (about 60k cars a day) is solely within the confines of downtown, then drops off massively in both directions before reaching major interchanges that add additional traffic.

This x1000. It could have been converted to a surface boulevard from Peters Creek to the 52 interchange, which would encourage pedestrian connectivity between the downtown core and the Old Salem area. While I agree that the rebuild is far safer and more attractive than the previous iteration of the highway, it is redundant as a through route. We really should not be encouraging or facilitating through traffic - especially trucks - through urban cores. We are just now entering the era of urban freeway removal, and unfortunately this investment leaves Winston-Salem stuck with this freeway for another generation. I believe this will look like more of a mistake with each passing year.

On the same note, I think that US 52 should be converted to boulevard or outright removed once the eastern loop around W-S is completed. I would suggest outright removal from the Research Parkway exit north all the way to the Liberty Street/airport exit. It's time to reverse the physical and social destruction of the freeway building/urban renewal era. And beyond that, I think it's time to stop orienting our transportation system around people who live in far-flung areas who commute in to central locations. This is a fiscally insolvent and environmentally destructive pattern of development, and it may be increasingly irrelevant in the post-Covid world.

[nicholas]

On 10/16/2021 at 6:38 PM, KJHburg said:

I disagree this road was and is still needed.  It was not widened but may safer.  Plus it was already below grade through most of downtown so it would have had massive infill of dirt to make it even with the rest of the surrounding land.  The traffic counts in the last year are not really fair comparisons as so many are still working from home and so forth and university students were not attending in person last spring.    I think it is vital roadway through the city.  

Good point on the traffic counts.  However, through I-40 traffic has been routed farther outside of W-S for a long time now, and having the BUS 40 freeway completely closed for two years prior to Covid did not overwhelming adjacent roads, which I think shows that we do not *need* BUS 40 anymore.  Especially since it serves as a sort of barrier between downtown W-S and Old Salem. 

The amount of freeways in NC is getting pretty ridiculous...the core routes such as I-40, I-85, etc are necessary because they directly connect our large cities.  I'd argue that we still need a couple of interstates so that Asheville and Charlotte as well as Charlotte and Wilmington have direct interstate connections.  But I mean look at a map of Greensboro and note the limited-access freeways all over the place INSIDE of the Urban Loop.  You've got BUS-85/I-40...why do we still need that when the southern part of the loop is newer, safer, has higher speed limits, and most obviously is parallel to the old route?  What about Old US 421 which is limited access from the Loop until right before BUS-85...why do we need a freeway through here that doesn't even carry a US highway anymore?  O'Henry Blvd (US 29/70/220) which is limited access from BUS 85 to Cone Blvd (not far from the north part of the Loop).  Wendover Ave which is limited access from Spring Garden St to Battleground (and then a haphazard mess of very crazy exits with driveways sprinkled into the middle of everything the rest of the way out of the city).  US 220 from the Loop to I-40 (just west of the BUS-85 interchange).  Joseph M Bryan Blvd from the Loop to Benjamin Pkwy.  I'm probably missing some but it's getting hard to even keep track anymore, and this is just in one city.

Imo, it is fine to build interstates when they allow through traffic to drive from one city to another, or bypass urban areas on the way.  In Greensboro's case, I think the Urban Loop is a good addition because it allows through traffic on a number of different interstates entering the city from different directions, to go around the city and not interfere as much with local residents.  But building interstates/limited access freeways towards city centers mainly for commuters brings very diminished returns...they are expensive, usually cannot keep up with increasing traffic, and serve as barriers separating one part of a city from another.  Also, I think planners are getting way too caught up in the theoretical weight of Interstate signs vs US highway signs vs state highway signs.  State highways came first to form connections from one town to another, and initially were mostly just primary routes instead of the signed state highways that they became later.  In the mid 1920s, US highways were introduced.  These were higher capacity roads built to connect the larger cities from state to state.  In some instances, US highways would run either concurrent with or parallel to existing state highways, but in many cases were built were direct state highway connections were missing as the planing process was from a national view.  Also, US highways began bypassing towns and cities with higher and higher capacity roads, which were starting to resemble what interstate would look like, and seemed to plant a seed in planners that US routes were extremely important and traffic flow was utmost priority.  However, in the 1950s, Interstates were introduced, and since they essentially followed the same framework as the US highways did decades prior, many US highways were being bypassed by new interstates, which became the default through traffic carriers nationwide.  Unfortunately, planners were continuing to treat US highways like interstates within urban areas, leading to interstate-like roads being built for roads that no longer carried the bulk of through traffic, and I think this mindset continues today among many people.  For example: Business US 74 is four lanes all the way through Rockingham despite the newer US 74 bypass (soon to be I-74) carrying most travelers around the city.  So...why does the state continue to maintain 4+ lanes of roadway on Business 74?  Is it just because it's a US route?  There are a lot more examples of this just around the Charlotte area where older US routes have basically outlived their usefulness, but it seems like the US highway sign carries far too much weight in the minds of traffic planners who will not consider other uses for them (perhaps turning them into "scenic byways" in areas where US highways have been superseded by interstates).

Edited October 18, 2021 by nicholas

[nicholas]

On 10/17/2021 at 4:35 PM, jthomas said:

This x1000. It could have been converted to a surface boulevard from Peters Creek to the 52 interchange, which would encourage pedestrian connectivity between the downtown core and the Old Salem area. While I agree that the rebuild is far safer and more attractive than the previous iteration of the highway, it is redundant as a through route. We really should not be encouraging or facilitating through traffic - especially trucks - through urban cores. We are just now entering the era of urban freeway removal, and unfortunately this investment leaves Winston-Salem stuck with this freeway for another generation. I believe this will look like more of a mistake with each passing year.

On the same note, I think that US 52 should be converted to boulevard or outright removed once the eastern loop around W-S is completed. I would suggest outright removal from the Research Parkway exit north all the way to the Liberty Street/airport exit. It's time to reverse the physical and social destruction of the freeway building/urban renewal era. And beyond that, I think it's time to stop orienting our transportation system around people who live in far-flung areas who commute in to central locations. This is a fiscally insolvent and environmentally destructive pattern of development, and it may be increasingly irrelevant in the post-Covid world.

I don't think that the loop will extend south of I-40 (except maybe I-74 on the right side).   Unfortunately I believe that NCDOT is planning on extending I-285 further up US-52 to where it interchanges with the northern part of the W-S Loop, AND that will likely include widening the existing US 52 route through W-S.  Missed opportunities everywhere.  Ideally, if the only option is to build a new interstate in W-S, the W-S Loop should extend from the east side terminus down to I-285, and through traffic/US 52 should be routed onto that.  US 421 should be rerouted onto I-40 to further encourage through traffic to stay on the interstate, and then the current US 421 and US 52 roadways should be eliminated or greatly downgraded from essentially interstates to streets.

[KJHburg]

despite some of y'alls concerns this project the Salem Parkway did win its national award.

 Best of the Best! The #SalemParkway project in City of Winston-Salem, NC - Government was just named the Grand Prize winner in the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO) 2021 America’s Transportation Awards.
Congratulations to everyone involved with this amazing project - representing NC as a true transportation leader!

[KJHburg]

US 421 will be designated as Future I-685 as a part of the recently passed infrastructure bill.  This route goes right by the Megasite that is being considered for a major company possibly Toyota Battery plant.  This might sound trivial but the presence of an Interstate makes a difference in marketing a site like the megasite and others in the area.  

From the Triad Biz Journal
 

""Central North Carolina is one step closer to adding another interstate shield to the region. Included in the recently passed federal infrastructure bill is language that will facilitate designating part of U.S. Highway 421 as a future interstate.  Eligible to be badged as Future I-685 is the section of Highway 421 from I-85 south of Greensboro to Sanford, from where it will continue as an as-yet non identified corridor to I-95 just north of Fayetteville.   Seven counties along the route from the Triad to the Triangle have passed resolutions of support endorsing Future I-685. The region’s Metropolitan and Rural Planning Organizations have also given the green light in support of the future interstate designation.""

Federal infrastructure bill allows part of U.S. 421 south of Greensboro to become Future I-685 - Triad Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

[KJHburg]

Came up US 421 into Gboro from Pittsboro heading back to Charlotte.  All these highways is why hopefully by years end 2 major manufacturers will come to the area one at PTI and other at the Megasite (which they really should have a big sign on advertising it) 

[cityboi]

Construction of the Greensboro beltway is in its final leg. The entire loop will be complete by spring 2023. The idea of a highway loop around Greensboro was first proposed in the 1940s. The first leg of the loop opened 20 years ago! Hard to believe, time goes by fast! Official planning for the loop started in the mid 1990s. At the time it was nicknamed "Painter Boulevard"

https://greensboro.com/news/local/final-leg-of-greensboro-urban-loop-is-taking-shape/article_8f945490-6e81-11ec-973a-c786b0d44484.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

Edited January 9, 2022 by cityboi

[DCB]

I can't get over how much faster it is to get from Battleground to Elm now. It used to take a good 15 minutes of navigating those awful 35mph side roads and now it's like a 3-4 minute drive .

[nicholas]

Since I-840 will be completed fairly soon, can we look at eliminating some of the highways inside of the loop?

Like what is the point of O'Henry Blvd (US-29 between BUS-85 and US-70)?  Through traffic coming in on I-85 from Charlotte is already encouraged to follow the southeastern part of the loop, and can just continue onto I-840.  Through traffic coming in from the west on I-40 will just loop around on I-840.  Same for the east.  US-421 traffic coming in from the south can loop around as well.  I think a number of freeways inside the urban loop could be removed with relatively little impact to local traffic.

[GSOstrong]

Since I-840 will be completed fairly soon, can we look at eliminating some of the highways inside of the loop?
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2022_03/1951803209_gsobasemap.thumb.jpg.d7bf23058bcfd56e755a160c7417a410.jpg
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2022_03/2064648400_gsomodifiedmap.thumb.jpg.1a169b4e938d149df7b090b1ee68d484.jpg
Like what is the point of O'Henry Blvd (US-29 between BUS-85 and US-70)?  Through traffic coming in on I-85 from Charlotte is already encouraged to follow the southeastern part of the loop, and can just continue onto I-840.  Through traffic coming in from the west on I-40 will just loop around on I-840.  Same for the east.  US-421 traffic coming in from the south can loop around as well.  I think a number of freeways inside the urban loop could be removed with relatively little impact to local traffic.

I’m sure the people who live in the area of those highways find them very purposeful. I use to live northeast and I used 29 every single day even with the eastern portion of the loop being completed. The loop won’t cut commute times down for everyone. See both sides of the coin and think about how other have to get around from their neighborhoods. Greensboro has a whole city of people to serve to get to and from work, school, etc.


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[KJHburg]

Greensboro's interstate freeway system and other parkways like Bryan and even US 29 on the eastside make this the least congested city in the state.  The city is getting ready to grow a lot faster with Boom Supersonic,  Toyota and the suppliers that will follow them.  Greensboro is a joy to drive in compared to every other major NC city.  No need to remove anything. 

[jthomas]

13 hours ago, nicholas said:

Since I-840 will be completed fairly soon, can we look at eliminating some of the highways inside of the loop?

Like what is the point of O'Henry Blvd (US-29 between BUS-85 and US-70)?  Through traffic coming in on I-85 from Charlotte is already encouraged to follow the southeastern part of the loop, and can just continue onto I-840.  Through traffic coming in from the west on I-40 will just loop around on I-840.  Same for the east.  US-421 traffic coming in from the south can loop around as well.  I think a number of freeways inside the urban loop could be removed with relatively little impact to local traffic.

I fully agree about O'Henry Boulevard. It is a substandard, dangerous, and redundant freeway that damages and divides the communities it passes through. I would like to see it reconstructed as a slow-speed surface boulevard, complete with wide sidewalks, protected bike lanes, and on-street parking. This redesign could serve as a catalyst to heal some of the past urban planning sins in east Greensboro. I would do this redesign from the Summit Avenue intersection all the way down to 40/85. Conversely, the section of 29 north of Summit should be fully limited access, which would involve eliminating some intersections between Cone and 840.

Sometimes I also think about removing the Wendover "freeway" between Holden and Battleground, although I'm less certain about that idea. Wendover is pretty useful for crosstown travel. But in an ideal world, crosstown travel would be far less necessary, because development patterns would allow people to shop and dine in their own neighborhood, rather than needing to drive to a big box store on the edge of town.

[rancenc]

I-74 project as been awarded for construction through Forsyth County.

https://www.ncconstructionnews.com/spanish-multinational-wins-261-8-million-i-74-contract-in-forsyth-county/

[rancenc]

Interchange improvement at major junction in High Point.

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nc/triad/news/2022/03/08/high-point-to-replace-nearly-70-year-old-bridge-and-modernize-interchange

[cityboi]

This is a perfect example as to why Winston-Salem's highway infrastructure really needs to be upgraded.

https://www.wxii12.com/article/horrible-traffic-headaches-anger-paul-mccartney-fans/40067787

[GSOstrong]

This is a perfect example as to why Winston-Salem's highway infrastructure really needs to be upgraded.
https://www.wxii12.com/article/horrible-traffic-headaches-anger-paul-mccartney-fans/40067787

Wow, the city really tried to blame a thunderstorm? Lol that is HILARIOUS!!!! Winston traffic is terrible when it’s sunny but they try to blame it on that? Come on now lol they have to do better. Why can’t they just accept they need to do better and spend the money for new highway infrastructure?


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[cityboi]

53 minutes ago, GSOstrong said:

Wow, the city really tried to blame a thunderstorm? Lol that is HILARIOUS!!!! Winston traffic is terrible when it’s sunny but they try to blame it on that? Come on now lol they have to do better. Why can’t they just accept they need to do better and spend the money for new highway infrastructure?


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Yeah we are talking about Paul McCartney. People around the country came to see him. Salem Pkwy and Highway 52 just can't handle that kind of traffic. The highway infrastructure is decades behind. It was so bad people were saying they'd never come back there for an event. Greensboro, Raleigh and Charlotte have the infrastructure to handle it. Local representatives need to lobby for more state and federal funds. I wonder if there is a way to widen Highway 52?

Edited May 22, 2022 by cityboi

[GSOstrong]

Yeah we are talking about Paul McCartney. People around the country came to see him. Salem Pkwy and Highway 52 just can't handle that kind of traffic. The highway infrastructure is decades behind. It was so bad people were saying they'd never come back there for an event. Greensboro, Raleigh and Charlotte have the infrastructure to handle it. Local representatives need to lobby for more state and federal funds. I wonder if there is a way to widen Highway 52?

Wonder why the decided on a venue in Winston then and not the other 3 larger cities here and I’m sure they can widen it but probably only in sections just like here on battleground. I wish battleground was 3 lanes the whole way to downtown but there just isn’t enough real-estate to do so. Does Winston have plans to build a loop around the city?


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[HRVT]

22 minutes ago, GSOstrong said:

Wonder why the decided on a venue in Winston then and not the other 3 larger cities here and I’m sure they can widen it but probably only in sections just like here on battleground. I wish battleground was 3 lanes the whole way to downtown but there just isn’t enough real-estate to do so. Does Winston have plans to build a loop around the city?


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One is currently under construction, though that probably wouldn't have helped much last night.

 

How many people were at this concert? I know WF can draw 30k+ for football. Was this like 50k+ people?

[GSOstrong]

One is currently under construction, though that probably wouldn't have helped much last night.
 
How many people were at this concert? I know WF can draw 30k+ for football. Was this like 50k+ people?

Truist field capacity is a little over 30k so I’m sure somewhere around that number


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[HRVT]

2 minutes ago, GSOstrong said:

Truist field capacity is a little over 30k so I’m sure somewhere around that number


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Right... but I think people were on the field too... but I'm sure some seats were unusable.

But if the number in attendance is anywhere near the 30k capacity (ie: <40k) then it makes last night's failure all the more baffling.

[cityboi]

2 hours ago, HRVT said:

Right... but I think people were on the field too... but I'm sure some seats were unusable.

But if the number in attendance is anywhere near the 30k capacity (ie: <40k) then it makes last night's failure all the more baffling.

My guess is that it was probably more than 30,000. Like you said there was seating on the field. The big outdoor amphitheaters in Charlotte and Raleigh could have easily handled it they are close to the interstates. But it was a logistical failure in Winston-Salem and blaming it on a storm that quickly moved through was ridiculous. Part of it probably has to do with that fact that Winston-Salem rarely has events of that size and it was a little bit of a learning curve for the city. Even smaller concerts around 15,000 to 18,000 which is common at the Greensboro Coliseum is rare in Winston-Salem. The Triad does need a very large amphitheater similar to the ones in Charlotte and Raleigh for events north of 30,000 people but near I-40 and in the center of the Triad. Maybe in Triad Park.

Edited May 22, 2022 by cityboi

[DownEast]

Well, the Northern Beltway will help alleviate the thru traffic that uses 52, which is probably the majority, by taking it around the city. Why would the police say the city doesn't have the infrastructure? Just seems like a weird response. Do police not help direct traffic there. 52 is the closest freeway, but parking seems far off and if you're sitting through that many light changes at Patterson/Indiana, it seems the issue was with the efficiency at which police were able to direct/fill parking lots. Football games are easy. Folks show up early and over a more spread out period of time to tailgate and whatnot. I thinks its more likely the traffic planning could have been better. Certainly not the weather or infrastructure's fault. It wasn't the Olympics.

WS has also been steadily upgrading and improving transportation system. Its just when looking at Greensboro's highways, all metros pale in comparison.

Edited May 23, 2022 by DownEast

[nicholas]

On 5/22/2022 at 1:32 PM, cityboi said:

My guess is that it was probably more than 30,000. Like you said there was seating on the field. The big outdoor amphitheaters in Charlotte and Raleigh could have easily handled it they are close to the interstates. But it was a logistical failure in Winston-Salem and blaming it on a storm that quickly moved through was ridiculous. Part of it probably has to do with that fact that Winston-Salem rarely has events of that size and it was a little bit of a learning curve for the city. Even smaller concerts around 15,000 to 18,000 which is common at the Greensboro Coliseum is rare in Winston-Salem. The Triad does need a very large amphitheater similar to the ones in Charlotte and Raleigh for events north of 30,000 people but near I-40 and in the center of the Triad. Maybe in Triad Park.

I was at the concert.  There were probably a little under a thousand seats blocked off at the very edge of the stadium due to how the stage was located, but that was more than offset by the seating on the field.  Very few empty seats that I could see, but I know there were a lot of people unable to attend (after spending over $1000 in tickets) due to an absolutely catastrophic mismanagement of parking.  Fortunately (despite the rain) I was on my motorcycle and was able to park in some random lot not too far from the stadium, probably wasn't supposed to do that but there was no way I would have made it into the stadium in time otherwise. 

W-S managing to land a Paul McCartney concert, which was his only show combined between NC, SC, GA, and VA (as well as 1 of only 13 stops in the entire country), was a massive scoop, arguably the biggest event in city history.  However I fear it may be their last major show for some time.  Heard lots of people complaining about parking, and have seen reaction on news and Reddit where people are saying they'll never come to W-S again.  I got to W-S at about 6:30pm and was stuck in traffic on University Pkwy for nearly 2 hours, during which it moved maaaaaybe half a mile.  I don't go to a lot of massive concerts, but I know traffic isn't supposed to be that bad.  Especially considering the stadium is accessible by N University Pkwy, S University Pkwy, Reynolds Pkwy, Coliseum Dr, and 27th St, all of which are at least four lanes.  I mean Garner's annual orchestra/fireworks celebration draws probably upwards of 10k people every July, and even with literally just one entrance served solely by two-lane back roads, they keep traffic moving far better than the disaster that was Truist Field parking on Sat night.