Orlando: SoDo (South of Downtown) development

[sunshine]

Waterford Lake, Groove, Loop, Dellagio....are all suburban by product. They are nothing more than a glorified strip-mall style shopping center that is gear up for car. Among all those u listed, Waterford Lake, Groove, & the loop are the worst because of the huge parking lots and its location. They are not much diffrent from a Wal-mart.

SODO is different because it is inner city development and it is compact.

[Hisma]

Dellagio is beautiful. I need to take some pictures to show just how it's coming along. Definitely much more than just a glorified strip mall.

[JRS1]

Dellagio is beautiful. I need to take some pictures to show just how it's coming along. Definitely much more than just a glorified strip mall.

I think Dellagio has subterrainian parking under at least part of it;

[neon9]

Waterford Lake, Groove, Loop, Dellagio....are all suburban by product. They are nothing more than a glorified strip-mall style shopping center that is gear up for car. Among all those u listed, Waterford Lake, Groove, & the loop are the worst because of the huge parking lots and its location. They are not much diffrent from a Wal-mart.

Agreed. All this pining for more 'retail development' really baffles me anyway. Don't we have enough places to shop? Now, virtually every major retailer is either closing stores or scaling back expansion plans and we're cheering 'town centers' and strip malls built in the suburbs?

Do we really need more stores selling goods from contractors in Asia via big boxes with a logo on the side here filled with minimum wage employees? I'd much rather see a Nike factory than a Nike Town store come here...but that can't happen of course, because there are no Nike factories.

Sorry, sure this will go over like a turd in a punchbowl, but I had to get it out. I've always thought this obsession with retail development was a little strange and now I'm reading a particularly rabble-rousing book....I'll take this to the 'coffee shop'...

[JRS1]

^^

good point and I agree. we may not have factories, but we do have distribution centers. Publix being the newest proposal near Lee Vista.

My point about listing stuff was not a cry for more, rather, an inventory of some of the types of properties that we do have, which is impressive.

[JFW657]

And speaking of retail strength in Central Fla., I just saw a story this evening about how the Oveido Marketplace Mall is experiencing the lowest occupancy rates of any area mall & that even more businesses are planning to leave after the beginning of next year including the movie theater & Starbucks. While every other area mall has occupancy rates of over 90%, OM's are around 75%.

The odd thing is that this mall is very near Tuscawilla & Winter Springs.... an area not knbown for it's lack of affluence.

You'd think that being so near all those upscale neighborhoods this place would be florishing.

I visited there once & really liked it. I actually wished that it had been built closer because I liked the interior so much.

[facilities man]

And speaking of retail strength in Central Fla., I just saw a story this evening about how the Oveido Marketplace Mall is experiencing the lowest occupancy rates of any area mall & that even more businesses are planning to leave after the beginning of next year including the movie theater & Starbucks. While every other area mall has occupancy rates of over 90%, OM's are around 75%.

The odd thing is that this mall is very near Tuscawilla & Winter Springs.... an area not knbown for it's lack of affluence.

You'd think that being so near all those upscale neighborhoods this place would be florishing.

I visited there once & really liked it. I actually wished that it had been built closer because I liked the interior so much.

The Oviedo mall struggles because it only has half a market. It is built on the Eastern edge of developement in Seminole County. Very few people live East of the mall. It draws entirely from Winter Springs and Oviedo. That isn't a big enough market to support a mall. At least just yet. The market will slowly grow and probably support it in 10 or so years, but it will probably take even longer to recover because its getting a bad retail reputation. Even after the population grows enough to support it it may take a few years to recover.

[JFW657]

The Oviedo mall struggles because it only has half a market. It is built on the Eastern edge of developement in Seminole County. Very few people live East of the mall. It draws entirely from Winter Springs and Oviedo. That isn't a big enough market to support a mall. At least just yet. The market will slowly grow and probably support it in 10 or so years, but it will probably take even longer to recover because its getting a bad retail reputation. Even after the population grows enough to support it it may take a few years to recover.

I've also heard that part of the problem is that a lot of the stores that they have are geared to a different demographic than the people who shop there.

There are a lot of residential neighborhoods & apartment complexes along east Aloma & University Blvd. that are close enough to that mall to support it if there were things there they wanted.

Anyway, I hear they are in negotiations with a big box store to move in there & hopefully revive the place.

[spenser1058]

And speaking of retail strength in Central Fla., I just saw a story this evening about how the Oveido Marketplace Mall is experiencing the lowest occupancy rates of any area mall & that even more businesses are planning to leave after the beginning of next year including the movie theater & Starbucks. While every other area mall has occupancy rates of over 90%, OM's are around 75%.

The odd thing is that this mall is very near Tuscawilla & Winter Springs.... an area not knbown for it's lack of affluence.

You'd think that being so near all those upscale neighborhoods this place would be florishing.

I visited there once & really liked it. I actually wished that it had been built closer because I liked the interior so much.

Oviedo Marketplace is not alone in the struggling mall category, I understand. An older friend of mine who does the morning senior walks around West Oaks Mall in Ocoee frequently reports additional store closings each time we chat. Even more interesting for those of us who remember the demise of retail in downtown Orlando, he reports the increase of wig shops and tattoo parlors, which of course were noted in Mayor Bill's famous words bemoaning the depths to which downtown had fallen as he took office.

Look for a continued struggle for enclosed malls as the energy costs required to maintain them continue to rise and as retail continues to change to reflect the habits of a much busier society. It was interesting to note that mass merchandisers like JCPenney are increasingly locating new stores in outdoor centers like Kissimmee's Loop, and even upscale merchants like Brooks Brothers are locating in similar projects like Wiregrass Commons in the 'burbs north of Tampa (a project which is emptying out nearby University Square Mall much like Fowler Groves is affecting West Oaks).

Also a tidbit about Oviedo Marketplace vs. Waterford Lakes: those two centers developed about the same time and a war took place as to who would snag the department store anchors (back when people cared about department store anchors). Waterford was originally planned as an enclosed mall, but switched gears and became one of the first local big box centers in that dustup. Close to 20 years later (if I remember correctly), it's interesting to see how that came out.

[JRS1]

Also a tidbit about Oviedo Marketplace vs. Waterford Lakes: those two centers developed about the same time and a war took place as to who would snag the department store anchors (back when people cared about department store anchors). Waterford was originally planned as an enclosed mall, but switched gears and became one of the first local big box centers in that dustup. Close to 20 years later (if I remember correctly), it's interesting to see how that came out.

more like 10 years later. they both opened around 1998ish;

Oviedo Marketplace was always busy when it opened; I think this downturn is what's really tightening the screws...

[spenser1058]

more like 10 years later. they both opened around 1998ish;

Oviedo Marketplace was always busy when it opened; I think this downturn is what's really tightening the screws...

Thanks for that - I meant "10" there but obviously I can't type. Anyway, I found this article from the Sentinel in 2002, which I accessed via an archive:

'Ironically, Simon at first wanted to build a regional mall where the town center now stands. The company dropped that idea in 1997 after rival developer Rouse Co. was the first to sign major anchor tenants for its Oviedo Marketplace, five miles north of Waterford Lakes.

"In the end, that was probably a good turn of events for Simon," said David Marks, president of Marketplace Advisors, a development consulting firm based in Maitland. "I'm sure Waterford Lakes Town Center has been more productive for them in terms of sales per square foot than a mall would have been." '

The link to the full article can be found at:

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summa...286-8652425_ITM

(requires a library card number from your local library to access, apparently)

[bic]

New retailers named for SoDo opening

Orlando Business Journal Article

[Theflytyr]

New retailers named for SoDo opening

Orlando Business Journal Article

Do we really need another Mattress Store?????

[FLheat]

Do we really need another Mattress Store?????

Agreed, for such a nice looking development, I am kind of disappointed with the mix of retail. I see myself only patronizing Target and possibly Taco Bell (if traffic is not going to be a nightmare). Perhaps if the commuter rail or the Lymmo extension was in place, I may spend some more time there, but it doesn't sound like anything has a real 'wow' factor.

[neon9]

Do we really need another Mattress Store?????

I think it's mandatory for every new strip mall/power center.

Now THAT's a boring job....(selling mattresses in a small space like that)

[i_cre8]

Do we really need another Mattress Store?????

Exactly! I don't get it. Is there really that big of a market out there for mattresses? Why are there so many of these stores? Mattress Giant, Mattress King, Mattress One, Mattress Factory, Mattress Barn. And they have commercials on TV ALL THE TIME!

[bic]

I just came back from a quick drive through SoDo and I have to say that for as much attention as the development is getting on this site, it really failed to impress me. It's no better than any of the other urban town centers I've seen and in some regards, it's actually worse-- the setback from Orange Avenue, wide "main street" through the center of it, and front-in parking (as opposed to parallel) detract from the urban feel the complex is going for. I also didn't realize how far it was from the central business disctrict....it's not close at all.

The news blurb I linked to above also doesn't help matters, showing that much of the retail found in SoDo will not be much different from that found in every strip mall across town. Rather than have the centerpiece of this development be something fun or unique, it appears to be a SuperTarget. Great...

[Jaybee]

Bic, you just don't get it... thenstead of a strip mall, you got a different urban form in SODO. You may not be impressed with the tennant roster, but this forum is for discussing urban design issues, not which stores are cool. There are reasons for the setback from Orange - long term leases of the front tennants; in fact, it was owned by a different party entirely than the rear. Hopefully, most of the people on the list are from a professional architecture, city planning, legal, engineering, developer-type of background. Those people will realize that it's a coup.

The stores will change (the target may not), but it would be hard to say that this was a the same project as Waterford Lakes. Perhaps you will see the difference and notice it's significant. Besides, back in angled parking is the new parallel...

[bic]

Bic, you just don't get it... thenstead of a strip mall, you got a different urban form in SODO. You may not be impressed with the tennant roster, but this forum is for discussing urban design issues, not which stores are cool. There are reasons for the setback from Orange - long term leases of the front tennants; in fact, it was owned by a different party entirely than the rear. Hopefully, most of the people on the list are from a professional architecture, city planning, legal, engineering, developer-type of background. Those people will realize that it's a coup.

The stores will change (the target may not), but it would be hard to say that this was a the same project as Waterford Lakes. Perhaps you will see the difference and notice it's significant. Besides, back in angled parking is the new parallel...

I get it, I'm not just ecstatic about it like everyone else on here seems to be. Obviously if it was possible, SoDo would be situated as close to Orange Ave. as possible but since the property could not be obtained the developers had to make do. I can still complain about the crappy and uninviting streetscape though.

I may not be an architect, planner or developer by profession but I received my degree in mechanical engineering with a focus on design and the majority of my other college courses concentrated in architecture and urban planning, so this maverick might know a little more than your average joe sixpack (but still not as much as many others on this board).

I also happen to think that the type of stores that go into a development such as this DO matter and although the current list of retailers might blend well into the urban fabric surrounding SoDo, I really can't get excited about a development that is housing "more of the same." SuperTarget, Verizon Wireless, Mattress Giant, Taco Bell, Flippers Pizza, TJ Maxx, etc. are already too common around this town. I guess SoDo disguises them better than the average strip mall so it deserves a lot of praise.

[JRS1]

^^

this type of development takes Orlando to another level. Dadeland North was awesome when built-- still is b/c of the design of it; SoDo is the next best thing density wise. the point is that only in Miami do you see this type of development; the fact that they built it in this orientation in the city limits is amazing. Now, this may be used as a measuring stick for future central city developments or redevelopments.

also, the design of all of the buildings is also nice; the southern face is really nice towards the 'Bell and McD's. The residential is, well, high density with central parking deck residential akin to Lofts at Uptown and CityView-- but, there's a TJ Maxx on the first floor of it to boot.

This moves Orlando forward big time b/c it is a vertically- inclined development, like very few others in the entire State.

[Jaybee]

Well, SuperTarget is open tonight for the soft opening. Channel 6 had a live video at 6:00PM. There is a press release for the weekend below...

http://www.sodo-orlando.com/news/grand-opening.pdf

There was a cake in the shape of the store, and tons of samples throughout the store. Not to mention a checker at every register.

[lamsalfl]

I think this project is a step in the right direction.

1) It's not going to be a catch-all and be the perfect urban development.

2) It can serve as a model for future developments.

3) Serve as an urban anchor south of Downtown for further development to radiate outward from.

4) It's better than what was there a couple years ago.

[JFW657]

Well, I dropped by Super Target tonight around 8 pm & browsed around for about an hour or so.

My opinion.... a very nice store & nicely laid out. Aside from that, with regards to merchandise, selection & prices I was underwhelmed.

Their food prices are nothing to write home about & no better than Publix, certainly not as low as Super Wal Mart, so Super Target won't be taking my grocery business away from either of them.

Same with their clothing, electronics & household appliance prices. About average. Have to keep an eye out for sales.

On a side note, I went up to the rooftop parking lot & checked out the skyline view. Nice. It was dark, so I couldn't tell what was what building-wise, but I think Winnie Palmer kind of blocks out some of the stuff behind it. I look forward to seeing it during the day.

As for the rest of SoDo, the architecture is a tad on the bland side, & there isn't really a lot to it yet, but let's hope they get some good stores that carry stuff that is actually useful & some nice little eateries & other places to hang out.

[JFW657]

4) It's better than what was there a couple years ago.

First prize for understatement of the decade!!!!

[neon9]

Bic, you just don't get it... thenstead of a strip mall, you got a different urban form in SODO. You may not be impressed with the tennant roster, but this forum is for discussing urban design issues, not which stores are cool. There are reasons for the setback from Orange - long term leases of the front tennants; in fact, it was owned by a different party entirely than the rear. Hopefully, most of the people on the list are from a professional architecture, city planning, legal, engineering, developer-type of background. Those people will realize that it's a coup.

The stores will change (the target may not), but it would be hard to say that this was a the same project as Waterford Lakes. Perhaps you will see the difference and notice it's significant. Besides, back in angled parking is the new parallel...

I'm not sure anyone said it was the same project as Waterford Lakes.

It's a big improvement over the nearest strip mall with a Target, just 5 miles away at the Mall of Millenia.

Hey, listing developments is great, I like to read about them also, and this in particular is a good project for Orlando itself....

But a coup?

Maybe if it spurs a commuter rail stop at Michigan, and soon, I'll change my mind