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Orlando: SoDo (South of Downtown) development


zaadee

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^^

I went there tonight-- around 8pm as well. all I gotta say is this... from the moment you park on the first level, and walk towards the elevator shaft and escalators, only then do you realize that you are somewhere special. Anyone can build a Macy's/Burdines as part of a high density retail PUD and be more impressed with the label of the tenant. But this is a Target. You don't expect anything special from a Target. Everything about this store is first rate. It's probably only the second such store of it's kind in the US. And it is here. As for the interior, it's a Target for God's sake, not Saks.

No developer will chance this kind of capital investment in the middle of a city, where you have a TJ Maxx on the first floor of a 6-7 story residential housing complex incorporated into a much larger high density development. No way. This is fairly unique, which makes it special. Big backing went into this project and we are fortunate that it is here-- it was a coup.

Whatever effect Publix makes on you at Paramount, this is Publix multiplied by a factor of 5, and it's not even in the CBD. I'll tell you, pulling out of SoDo Target and then heading up Orange and ending up at Plaza on Court really has a profound effect on one's perception of Orlando.

I don't care what anyone says, this is perhaps the most profound mixed use/retail addition Orlando has ever seen- Millenia is one thing; it's supposed to be nice. This is creating a south-of-downtown city center of sorts; it is continuing the built-up sector of town that ORHS has been anchoring for years. wow.

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For the record, I'm not anti-town center. I just think there are many impressive town center projects throughout the country and I wouldn't classify SoDo as one of them. Here is an example of one that I think is very well-designed-- it's called Bay Street Emeryville and is located just across the Bay Bridge from San Francisco.

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^^

nevertheless, SoDo is anything but ordinary. that Bay Street project is in the 3rd or 4th largest metro in the US. show me a Target in SF as impressive as this one. that's what this is about. it's about innovative design of the overall project, which includes the anchor store. is the Bay Street AMC more impressive than AMC 24 or the Citywalk or Pointe Orlando cinemas? I don't think so.

my point again is that the project is nice; it makes a statement; it is fairly unique; and it will anchor a revitalization of the neighborhood big time. It's not huge overall, but it's about half the size of Miami's Midtown project by comparison, and it's in a part of town that has no reason to be a host for such a project. that, is what makes it the most impressive. it is reinforcing the development at ORHS and is expanding the development area south of downtown and strengthening its identity.

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nevertheless, SoDo is anything but ordinary. that Bay Street project is in the 3rd or 4th largest metro in the US.

The size of the size of another city's metro area is not relevant to the design flaws of a project in Orlando.

show me a Target in SF as impressive as this one. that's what this is about.

No, it's not actually. I'm sorry but I don't find this SuperTarget to be very impressive. Fortunately, land values in San Francisco are high enough from the crazy density there that there are only 2 Targets within the 6-mile radius of the CBD (and probably even greater than 6 miles but I stretched the ruler just so I won't be accused of being biased), whereas there are 8 stores within a 6-mile radius of Orlando's CBD (and definitely a couple of more if I stretched the ruler as I did with SF). There are, however, urban Target stores located in San Diego, Los Angeles, Pasadena, Glendale, Minneapolis, Washington DC, Pasadena, New York, Miami, and elsewhere.

it's about innovative design of the overall project, which includes the anchor store. is the Bay Street AMC more impressive than AMC 24 or the Citywalk or Pointe Orlando cinemas? I don't think so.

Town centers are a dime a dozen these days. Yes, the idea of a town center is nice, but just like an indoor shopping mall, there are good ones and bad ones. Malls have become so prolific the general idea of one is no longer innovative, when at one time the concept was as much of an invention as the cellular phone. SoDo is just another iteration of a fairly common concept that, in my opinion, failed to reach its full potential and at first glance appears to be overhyped on this forum.

I didn't go into the movie theater at Bay Street when I was there so I cannot use it for comparison. That said, what makes you have any reason to believe it's "less impressive" than a couple of theaters in Orlando? And why does that even matter? I think you're being far too defensive in this discussion.

-----

The subject of big box retail is an interesting one with regards to urban development as these stores were a big reason why post-WWII American downtowns suffered from the exodus of their residents fleeing to the suburbs as retail became decentralized with the advent of shopping malls popping up on the fringes of cities.

Now with the popularization of new urbanism and a return of citizens back to downtowns, some of these big box retail stores are moving closer city cores. This is both good and bad. On one hand, these stores are terribly convenient for the residents of the nearby neighborhoods. On the other hand, they also have the potential to stunt the growth of small businesses in the area and may be partially responsible for the downfall of existing businesses. In place of that SuperTarget in SoDo, think about how many small storefronts could line Orange Avenue to offer the same services in a boutique-type setting. You'd have a new grocery store, toy store, several new clothing stores, electronics store, hardware store, furniture store.....the list goes on and on. The market may not be suitable for one of these types of stores to open up downtown on their own because of the lack of pedestrian traffic, but if they were to all to come online at roughly the same time (as in a mall), they would generate enough pedestrian activity to possibly succeed. For now, it's possible that Target and the other big box stores near downtown are actually hurting the retail scene within Orlando's core.

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I think most of us would like to have diffrent stores lining up along both side of Orange Ave, but it wont happend until the leaders of this city put effort into it. But, the mentality of this city so far has been reluctant to change in a drastic way. I dont need Orange Ave to be Saks Fifth avenue, just give me Lincoln Road or to a small extend Park Ave, Winter Park and I will be happy. We used to have Structure, Victoria Secret, Brookstone...in downtown. Bring them back! Store like Barn & Nobles would do great downtown.

Btw, the Bay Street reminds me of Atlantic Station.

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I think most of us would like to have diffrent stores lining up along both side of Orange Ave, but it wont happend until the leaders of this city put effort into it. But, the mentality of this city so far has been reluctant to change in a drastic way. I dont need Orange Ave to be Saks Fifth avenue, just give me Lincoln Road or to a small extend Park Ave, Winter Park and I will be happy. We used to have Structure, Victoria Secret, Brookstone...in downtown. Bring them back! Store like Barn & Nobles would do great downtown.

Btw, the Bay Street reminds me of Atlantic Station.

Leaders of cities do not bring in retail. Citizen makeup does. Until we have the demographics and psychographics to back it up, this is what we will get.

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Let's think about it this way. SoDo is a lifestyle center. The new anchors for this type of real estate product are restaurants. The premise being that while people wait for tables they browse in the stores. It seems like a good amenity base for residents (upon their arrival) that will enable them to dine, shop and bank without leaving the development. Not sexy, but effective.

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I think the design is great but must ask myself as well as the rest of you - would you really spend all the time to park to go to a T.J. Max or Mattress Giant when you can just pull in front of one on Colonial? Besides Target, this place lacks a destination (fine restaurants, movie theatre) that makes the obstacle of parking worthwhile (imo).

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oh boy.

anyone who lives in Orlando just go check out SoDo. Go to the Target. Go at night even. This isn't Chicago or SF. However, I am from Chicago and have friends and relatives currently living in Chicago who come down here and are impressed with the quality of some of the stuff that we have here. I guarantee you they would find SoDo appealing. If SoDo was in Northbrook it would fit in well.

all I know is that SoDo is elevating the status of the neighborhood adjacent to ORHS. That leather couch laden McD's used to be an oasis in the middle of cr*p. Now, it, the Chipotle, the Starbucks look like they are part of a master plan complimenting the work done on SoDo. The Arby's has to go. But what a change it has made.

And this store is not ordinary. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It's in the top echelon of Targets around the US.

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The size of the size of another city's metro area is not relevant to the design flaws of a project in Orlando.

No, it's not actually. I'm sorry but I don't find this SuperTarget to be very impressive. Fortunately, land values in San Francisco are high enough from the crazy density there that there are only 2 Targets within the 6-mile radius of the CBD (and probably even greater than 6 miles but I stretched the ruler just so I won't be accused of being biased), whereas there are 8 stores within a 6-mile radius of Orlando's CBD (and definitely a couple of more if I stretched the ruler as I did with SF). There are, however, urban Target stores located in San Diego, Los Angeles, Pasadena, Glendale, Minneapolis, Washington DC, Pasadena, New York, Miami, and elsewhere.

Town centers are a dime a dozen these days. Yes, the idea of a town center is nice, but just like an indoor shopping mall, there are good ones and bad ones. Malls have become so prolific the general idea of one is no longer innovative, when at one time the concept was as much of an invention as the cellular phone. SoDo is just another iteration of a fairly common concept that, in my opinion, failed to reach its full potential and at first glance appears to be overhyped on this forum.

I didn't go into the movie theater at Bay Street when I was there so I cannot use it for comparison. That said, what makes you have any reason to believe it's "less impressive" than a couple of theaters in Orlando? And why does that even matter? I think you're being far too defensive in this discussion.

-----

The subject of big box retail is an interesting one with regards to urban development as these stores were a big reason why post-WWII American downtowns suffered from the exodus of their residents fleeing to the suburbs as retail became decentralized with the advent of shopping malls popping up on the fringes of cities.

Now with the popularization of new urbanism and a return of citizens back to downtowns, some of these big box retail stores are moving closer city cores. This is both good and bad. On one hand, these stores are terribly convenient for the residents of the nearby neighborhoods. On the other hand, they also have the potential to stunt the growth of small businesses in the area and may be partially responsible for the downfall of existing businesses. In place of that SuperTarget in SoDo, think about how many small storefronts could line Orange Avenue to offer the same services in a boutique-type setting. You'd have a new grocery store, toy store, several new clothing stores, electronics store, hardware store, furniture store.....the list goes on and on. The market may not be suitable for one of these types of stores to open up downtown on their own because of the lack of pedestrian traffic, but if they were to all to come online at roughly the same time (as in a mall), they would generate enough pedestrian activity to possibly succeed. For now, it's possible that Target and the other big box stores near downtown are actually hurting the retail scene within Orlando's core.

The makeup of that area of Orange Ave. has already changed quite a bit since SoDo has been under construction. Most of the buildings that do line Orange in that area have repainted or redone, and all other new developments line the avenue, such as Chipolte, the strip near Starbucks and the older buildings. I think the developer named it SoDo for a reason, because it's an urban sounding name and it will be the center of the neighborhood. That area has always had potential, even more so now that Wadeview Park area has been renovated and don't forget the area's first Panera Bread, when it was new and trendy was on Michigan. And if the real estate market and the whole economy wasn't in the shape it's in their would probably be more dense development in the area residentially. There are those new townhomes that line Michigan St. and those townhomes the eventually may build out to Orange lining the streets across from Pulse nightclub, also off of Kaley near Orange there are several multi-family units recently built. The Einstein Bagel at Kaley fronts Orange, used to be an old store and gas station. If you check out the people frequenting the business on East Colonial, minus Fashion Square, like Pei Wei, Target, LA Fitness, Barnes and Noble, etc. they are much more "urban looking" lately due to the number of residents moving downtown. I'm sure a large percentage of those residents live on the southside of downtown also and will change their dining and Target shopping habits to the SoDo area. San Fran and Chicago have been big cities for years. We're talking about Orlando, a city that is just reaching urban status. I'm sure when San Fran had 230,000 people within it's city limits (which are small, like Orlando) that development with the AMC theater, would not be what it is. Your right, the size of a metro area has no relevance in this case, but San Fran's 900,000+ residents in comparison to 230,000 is a big difference. Let's wait and see what the SoDo area has going for it 30 years from now, now that this center of development has been planted. Look how long College Park has taken to get to where it is now. And how come San Francisco gets to be referred to as if the entire city is the downtown? How far is that development from the "real" CBD of San Francisco? Remember, the mayor has pretty much said and I think it's true, that downtown is from hospital to hospital. Why the negativity, we should be excited about this project, look what was there before. At least the city of Orlando's population is increasing and not as stagnant as most cities, such as San Francisco. There is nobody running off to the suburbs here and never has been. Ask how many people in our suburbs ever lived downtown? Probably less that 1 or 2 percent, if that. So welcome SoDo and TJ Maxx!!

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I think the design is great but must ask myself as well as the rest of you - would you really spend all the time to park to go to a T.J. Max or Mattress Giant when you can just pull in front of one on Colonial? Besides Target, this place lacks a destination (fine restaurants, movie theatre) that makes the obstacle of parking worthwhile (imo).

I would suggest taking a more "wait & see" attitude about the retail destinations in SoDo until the place fills up.

There are a lot of vacancies still to be leased, so maybe a couple of worthwhile places will go in there.

I don't know what that would be, however.

All I know is that I'm disappointed with the prices & selection at the Super Target grocery store.

It's no better than what we already had at Publix & Albertson's.

Super Wal Mart has em beat in that dept.

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Hey look..... a supertarget is better than this...

'pic of super wal-mart'

I'll drink to that.

Good points by both JRS and bic.

Anyone know what the rents are at this place? I assume they are apartments?

Kind of funny that the residential density nearby is quite low...and the industrial to the west...the tallest buildings I know of are the townhomes to the east on Michigan. A friend of mine lived off of Michigan just about a mile to the east and they were just extending sewer to her house 2 years ago.

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I went to Target this afternoon for the first time and it is a nice looking store (I am going to miss it not having a garden center though). I can assure you that traffic is going to be a real problem until people get used to the lay of the land and some stoplights are added. Getting into SODO is fine and the ramp for Target parking is on the south side of the building and smartly loops up if you drive in from Grant past the front of the store. If you come in from Crystal Lake there is a separate access to the ramp just past the road in front of Target. When leaving, the exit ramp throws you out on Crystal Lake which does not have a stop light on Orange, so I thought I would take the rear exit to Michigan and come back downtown via I4. The problem with this exit is again there is no light so the first person in line of course wants to make a left across Michigan (which is pretty busy) and there is only one lane so a line of traffic builds until the first person can make their left (as happened with me) waiting 5 minutes to make a right on a fairly dead afternoon at 4 PM. I do not understand how their traffic plan got approved.

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I went to Target this afternoon for the first time and it is a nice looking store (I am going to miss it not having a garden center though). I can assure you that traffic is going to be a real problem until people get used to the lay of the land and some stoplights are added. Getting into SODO is fine and the ramp for Target parking is on the south side of the building and smartly loops up if you drive in from Grant past the front of the store. If you come in from Crystal Lake there is a separate access to the ramp just past the road in front of Target. When leaving, the exit ramp throws you out on Crystal Lake which does not have a stop light on Orange, so I thought I would take the rear exit to Michigan and come back downtown via I4. The problem with this exit is again there is no light so the first person in line of course wants to make a left across Michigan (which is pretty busy) and there is only one lane so a line of traffic builds until the first person can make their left (as happened with me) waiting 5 minutes to make a right on a fairly dead afternoon at 4 PM. I do not understand how their traffic plan got approved.

The Target in Waterford closed their garden center about a year and half ago.....I could swear that you would be able to get out of SODO Target on the Grant St side......I thought that was why they widened the road.

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There is an additional ramp to Grant Street, which allows you to go east and/or west. You cannot place a traffic light at Crystal Lake - too close to Michigan. AND, you cannot place a light at Kunze, due to the close proximty to the railroad. The point is, there are 9 points of ingress and egress to the project, not 2 or 3 like a typical suburban project. People will learn the easiest ways to go. And remember, traffic lights actually diminish capacity on roadways. Grant Street was improved to a 3-lane section in front of the project, as well as Crystal Lake, and Kunze.

The only issue I see is the possibility of a future light at Division and Grant... but that infrastructure could be handled by additional development in the area. For that, you all would need to look at the South of Downtown Vision plan for the overall redevelopment of the Commuter Rail station environs.

http://www.cityoforlando.net/planning/city...%20VisionPL.htm

If you get stuck at Kunze behind a bunch of folks taking a left, take a left at W Jersey Street, then a right at Taylor Street to get to a right onto Michigan. Use the street grid to your advantage. That's what it's there for; that's what urbanism is about.

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let me clear up a point from before. the thing about SoDo is that is is a shopping plaza with ofices and residential; no gimmicks; vertical; got great potential for the area; and the Target itself is memorable when you go in via escalator, which makes SoDo more memorable.

not much on entertainment, I agree.

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I went last night for the first time to check it out. My initial response was similar to that of LL Cool J (retro) on the Old Spice commercial. I was so excited and intimidated at the same time I didn't know what to do. Visually the store is amazing. The layout in and of itself make shopping there an experience. The size is massive and from what I can tell they must be expecting to do gang buster business in there because they had more check out lines than I've ever seen. Now the real deal-prices. Even though it is a Super-Target I expected the prices to be slightly inflated due to the location, building, etc. To my surprise the prices were really good, particularly on food. I bought some groceries and saved a substantial amount on many of the items. I know this is urban development thread so I'm sorry for turning it into a review but just like LL in the commercial I'm still trying to get my swagger back after visiting this place.

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Even though it is a Super-Target I expected the prices to be slightly inflated due to the location, building, etc. To my surprise the prices were really good, particularly on food. I bought some groceries and saved a substantial amount on many of the items.

Really???

Because I found just the opposite to be true. I didn't find their food prices to be very low at all.

I know that Wal Mart is considered an ugly word around here, but Super Target is no Super Wal Mart price-wise or diversity of selection wise.

Based solely on first impressions & all the glitz, flash & visual appeal aside, I was disappointed in this place mainly for the reasons of selection & price.

As far as I can tell it's just another Target with the same groceries that have the same average prices as Publix & the rest.

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not to split hairs, but lettuce was like $.49 instead of the posted $1.49. I don't think the draw of this store is the pricing or selection; it's the location and context. electronics and toys had probably the same pricing at other Targets; as for clearance bins, the inventory is brand new so there aren't any. give it time.

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