One Glenwood

[plus2]

On a recent trip to Philadelphia I noticed a new condo building that looks similar to the Paramount but is 30 stories tall. Maybe we will get something like this... Symphony House

[RALNATIVE]

Certainly, One Glenwood will dwarf everything in that area, but we need to be mindful of the 'highest and best use' and look at this area for what it might become, rather than what it is.

[ncwebguy]

"Highest and best use" was used a few short years ago at a design charette in the old convention center to make the case for tearing the building we were in down to make room for an underground parking deck and site 1.

Now another "A-1" corner has risen at the Hillsborough/Glenwood corner, thanks to developments along/near both streets -- Paramount, 510, West, 222, etc. along Glenwood and Cambell Law, the Hillsborough, Hue/Morgan at Dawson, Quorum, Aloft/Hampton Inn, and the Marsh Woodwins/Flex block. It just fits, and hopefully will inspire the Boulevard Centro group to develop their parcel in a few years or work with this team and create a combined mega block. How long will Shelton's Furniture and the other nearby Morgan Street buisnesses last? Morgan will probably lose its on-street parking to handle the traffic generated by all this.

This project could easily be in the lower/mid 20 stories, and still have "stepping down" room along Hillsborough, transitioning to the State Employees Credit Union building and apartments across from St. Mary's. That should not happen all at once, but gives enough room to play with over the next 10-20 years -- the amount of time the next comprehensive plan will cover.

[dmccall]

HEy, this is exciting!!! I"d personally rather have 10-story buildings on either side fo Glenwood than one 20-story building. Better yet, both sides of Morgan from Moonlight to the bridge, up Glenwood to Hillsborough would do great at 6-7 stories with street level retail to create a neighborhood.

The real problem is that the Sandmans probably spent a fortune on that one little parcel and want to get the most bang for their buck. Hopefully a project like this isn't so big that either it can't be built or it soaks up all of the demand (like First Union and Hannover II did with office space in DT 15 yrs ago).

IIRC the Sandmans own the Clarion and the Velvet Cloak among other properties. They are keenly interested in the Hillsborough St. corridor and are another fairly old Raleigh family right in the downtown game (though they aren't ITB Carolina Country Club members like others I pointed to in my previous tipping-point observations).

We may have all been crying about a lost opportunity on this site a couple of years ago, but sometimes a better project with a more emotionally invested builder will come along. It's great that much of our boom is coming from local owners. They aren't going to just throw something up, get their money, and get out. They have to walk around here the rest of their lives so their pride is on the line. Imagine what John Kane's neighbors and friends would have done if he had converted North Hills to a South Hills-type thing! An out of town investor wouldn't think twice if the numbers looked good.

[cthayes75]

IIRC the Sandmans own the Clarion and the Velvet Cloak among other properties. They are keenly interested in the Hillsborough St. corridor and are another fairly old Raleigh family right in the downtown game (though they aren't ITB Carolina Country Club members like others I pointed to in my previous tipping-point observations).

[Jones_]

HEy, this is exciting!!! I"d personally rather have 10-story buildings on either side fo Glenwood than one 20-story building. Better yet, both sides of Morgan from Moonlight to the bridge, up Glenwood to Hillsborough would do great at 6-7 stories with street level retail to create a neighborhood.

The real problem is that the Sandmans probably spent a fortune on that one little parcel and want to get the most bang for their buck. Hopefully a project like this isn't so big that either it can't be built or it soaks up all of the demand (like First Union and Hannover II did with office space in DT 15 yrs ago).

IIRC the Sandmans own the Clarion and the Velvet Cloak among other properties. They are keenly interested in the Hillsborough St. corridor and are another fairly old Raleigh family right in the downtown game (though they aren't ITB Carolina Country Club members like others I pointed to in my previous tipping-point observations).

We may have all been crying about a lost opportunity on this site a couple of years ago, but sometimes a better project with a more emotionally invested builder will come along. It's great that much of our boom is coming from local owners. They aren't going to just throw something up, get their money, and get out. They have to walk around here the rest of their lives so their pride is on the line. Imagine what John Kane's neighbors and friends would have done if he had converted North Hills to a South Hills-type thing! An out of town investor wouldn't think twice if the numbers looked good.

[dmccall]

Jones,

No confrontation taken. You and I have disagreed on things in the past and you've always been very civil (unlike some of the malcontents at NewRaleigh). I certainly see your point. While we still have plenty of places for new DT projects, there aren't that many so close to the proposed TTA site, so that will certainly be a dense node one day when that all comes together. I just don't want to oversupply the market and then get nothing afterward.

I should have made an "Enter Sandman" joke. Jones' point about Snoopy's reminds me of the Seinfeld when Kramer couldn't sleep because of Kenny Rogers' Roasters' new neon sign. Very funny.

cthayes, you may be right about the Smoots owning the Velvet Cloak. I am a little fuzzy on the recent history of that property. Was it that the Smoots owned it, Sandmans had an option and couldn't make it work, and it went back to the Smoots??? Can't remember the details but I certainly remember that both families were in the picture at one time or another.

[Jones_]

Jones,

No confrontation taken. You and I have disagreed on things in the past and you've always been very civil (unlike some of the malcontents at NewRaleigh). I certainly see your point. While we still have plenty of places for new DT projects, there aren't that many so close to the proposed TTA site, so that will certainly be a dense node one day when that all comes together. I just don't want to oversupply the market and then get nothing afterward.

[ncwebguy]

I walked by the block on Sunday, approaching it from the east via Morgan and then up Glenwood.

It could be a mutual benfefit for One Glenwood and Snoopys and/or Char Grill if the cheap eats places were the ground floor tenants of the building. They could have a part indoor/part outdoor set up like Mellow Mushroom to allow for more seating, etc. Snoopy's opened a place with indoor seating on Spring Forest, so why not here? Whether or not a "new" Snoopys would be the same is a tough call. The other Char-Grills around town don't feel the same as the Hillsborough Street location.

Also, it would put them a little closer to the multi-modal station. There will probably be a snack bar/newstand in the station, but the "good stuff" is usually on the streets outside.

With the twin hotel project, the convention center, Campbell Law Center, the Hillsborough, etc. all going on nearby, there is no reason to think that the area only needs 20 stories for office/condo/apartment/hotel for the next 4-5 years. 222 Glenwood is seven stories, and it doesn't feel like it dwarfs 518 West Jones or the houses across the street, though eleveation helps some there.

If this was a "pioneering" project for downtown, I too would say it's too much too soon. The Hannover and First Union/Wachovia towers "ate up" the Class A office market because no other business were looking at downtown Raleigh at the time. But once they were built, there were no OTHER Class A office space available downtown. Then momentum died down during the post-Wall Street crash/Gulf War I/early 90s recession. New Class A office space and residences were built outside of the central business district when the conservative councils showed no interest in spending any money downtown and let developers ignore the comprehensive plan to build whatever wherever.

For Velvet Cloak, I remeber there being some option to covert part of the hotel to condos, but I don't know the names involved or if it ever happened. The balance of local owners vs. the amount of money and knowhow needed to pull off something big is a fine balancing act. Look no further than the Reynolds and 301 Hillsborough to see how having local roots only gets you a series of delays to keep it from going to some out of town/out of touch developer.

[ChiefJoJo]

Shots of the site from Sunday--can you imagine a 20-30 story building there?

from Glenwood & Morgan St:

from Hillsborough St:

[JeffC]

Shots of the site from Sunday--can you imagine a 20-30 story building there?

from Glenwood & Morgan St:

from Hillsborough St:

[Jones_]

Anyone know the history of this parcel? The parking lot those white trucks are sitting in is a perfectly square below grade "indention" that looks like the basement of some now demolished large building...it does not look like a natural terrain feature, though I guess Morgan and Glenwood may have been raised at various times over the years...

[st8fan]

Mixed-Use Tower

I bookmarked Little Consulting's website a long time ago after I noticed there work here in Raleigh and elsewhere. As of recently, this project has popped up in there "On the Boards" section. Never seen it until today. In the description it says "near Union Square" which made me think it was the Reynold's tower design. The design is similar in shape and window attributes on that one side. Now that the aforementioned is a goner, I'm guessing this is either the firm trying to sell off the design OR this could be the tower thought of for Glenwood Ave. and Hillsborough St. The Charlotte company (where Little Consulting is headquartered) that owns the land said they were placing it on the back burner for the time being. Could this actually be something to look forward to in the next few years?

Someone help post the pictures

[Jones_]

I am a little perplexed myself, but think 39 stories was the tallest proposal for the "Raleigh" and you are looking at the Morgan Street Bridge in the rendering. Its not really all that near Union Square, but when did marketers ever get anything exactly right? (Midtown for Soleil...silly West slogans..)

[st8fan]

I am a little perplexed myself, but think 39 stories was the tallest proposal for the "Raleigh" and you are looking at the Morgan Street Bridge in the rendering. Its not really all that near Union Square, but when did marketers ever get anything exactly right? (Midtown for Soleil...silly West slogans..)

[Gard]

Interesting....I hadn't see, nor heard of that tower before. I imagine that the tower was put on paper around the same time that the economy tanked, so they didn't bother announcing anything about it as of yet, at least until they can secure financing. I hope it comes to fruition, as its a pretty tower . I like the idea of a roof garden too.

[RALNATIVE]

Beautiful rendering. Would be nice to see this actually happen in Raleigh. Does anyone have the cojones to inquire with the design firm about the specifics?

[dmccall]

Sounds like they are describing the Edison. (four quadrants, near a square, etc).

[Euphorius]

The four quadrant idea sounds similar to the Edison. But, they specifically mentioned Union Square. I would think the Reynolds tower would be closer to Union Square than The Edison.

[DPK]

You're all wrong, although good guessers. I contacted them and got this reply:

// removed email due to request

And on that note, I guess I'll shut up about it.

[Gard]

Well its nice to know that developers are still planning projects for downtown despite the economy at least.

[Euphorius]

You know...after looking at the picture above I am wondering if this could be something that is being planned on the lot where Flex is. If that is the Morgan St. bridge beside it, then that is definitely the lot. The file is named onegw. One Glenwood. That would seem right to me.

[ncwebguy]

Not talking about this specifically, but something like it could go on the Hillsborough/West/Morgan/tracks lot or Hillsborough/Glenwood/Morgan/Boylan. It seems too big for the Hillsborough/Glenwood/Morgan/tracks "signs tommorow" block.

It would be a nice compliment to the Aloft/Hampton Inn combo, though that is shelved by the economy *and* decreasing hotel industry, though Glenwood South and downtown will need hotel rooms at some point.

[DPK]

You know...after looking at the picture above I am wondering if this could be something that is being planned on the lot where Flex is. If that is the Morgan St. bridge beside it, then that is definitely the lot. The file is named onegw. One Glenwood. That would seem right to me.

[Spatula]

I hope they move it to the empty reynolds site. No sense making a new hole over existing buildings when we already have this other blight.