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Land hoarder strikes again!


GRDadof3

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Joe, I appreciate the apology in your email. As I said in my email to you, my concern is for the impression that such language may leave with potential investors, new residents, and interested local residents who look to UP for a pulse of what's happening in Grand Rapids.

When personal attacks are made on people -- other UP members, developers who may not know they are being smeared online, etc., -- well, I'm afraid the energy for finding a solution or next step forward can be lost. I think it is below the image and substance of Grand Rapids and certainly the purpose for Urban Planet.

If people believe personal business decisions can be harmful for a city's growth, I'd like to see a thread on that topic. What are solutions, changes to laws, etc. that can be discussed.

In my personal experience prior to living in GR (and while in GR), I have found that a committed small group of people with positive ideas can accomplish much in the way of urban renewal. Focus, determination and resources are factors in the equation.

Thanks, again, for your response and understanding.

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... the impression that such language may leave with potential investors, new residents, and interested local residents who look to UP for a pulse of what's happening in Grand Rapids.

When personal attacks are made on people -- other UP members, developers who may not know they are being smeared online, etc., -- well, I'm afraid the energy for finding a solution or next step forward can be lost. I think it is below the image and substance of Grand Rapids and certainly the purpose for Urban Planet....

In my personal experience prior to living in GR (and while in GR), I have found that a committed small group of people with positive ideas can accomplish much in the way of urban renewal. Focus, determination and resources are factors in the equation. ...

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So now that we are done hugging each other and responding to *private* emails in the public forum, can we go back to the topic at hand:

Not so Nice* land speculator holds Very Good* urban revitalization non-profit hostage by walking out on a Too Good to Be True* offer from Very Good* non-profit. Not so Nice* leaves Very Good* non-profit on the line w/ a $4000 / month bill and only the option to sue Not so Nice* land speculator.

Not so Nice* is unavailable for comment as he is too busy trying to figure out how to attach frickin' laser beams to sharks heads.**

Joe

* Views expressed by JoeDowntown are solely his thoughts, and may not be factual. No land speculators were hurt in the writing of this message. Anyone offended by the thoughts conveyed in this message should immediate help as JoeDowntown's comments are known to cause permanent and irreparable damage to people who experience fainting spells, have heart conditions, pregnant women or kids under the height of 48 inches.

** This comment is just a flat out lie. JoeDowntown's comparison of Azzar to Dr. Evil should be seen as a weak attempt at humor. If said reader experiences hot flashes, vertigo, soreness, or if the effects last more than six hours, please contact your moderator immediately.

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Joe, I appreciate the apology in your email. As I said in my email to you, my concern is for the impression that such language may leave with potential investors, new residents, and interested local residents who look to UP for a pulse of what's happening in Grand Rapids.

When personal attacks are made on people -- other UP members, developers who may not know they are being smeared online, etc., -- well, I'm afraid the energy for finding a solution or next step forward can be lost. I think it is below the image and substance of Grand Rapids and certainly the purpose for Urban Planet.

If people believe personal business decisions can be harmful for a city's growth, I'd like to see a thread on that topic. What are solutions, changes to laws, etc. that can be discussed.

In my personal experience prior to living in GR (and while in GR), I have found that a committed small group of people with positive ideas can accomplish much in the way of urban renewal. Focus, determination and resources are factors in the equation.

Thanks, again, for your response and understanding.

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I agree to an extent, but sometimes people just need to sound off and aren't trying to change the world, or they are just trying to shine a spotlight on issues that hopefully others will either investigate or for the proper decision-makers to take note and make changes. UP serves as a "letter to the editor", a blog, an online media source, a media rag, a marketing tool, an advocate meeting place, a photo album, a histogram, and an information clearinghouse all at the same time. It's fluid at all times and it's very difficult to "pin down" exactly what UP's mission is. If someone checked in on UP who was thinking about moving here, they would probably be pretty confused by most of the stuff we are talking about because they don't know the properties, parties or issues involved. We are not a highly polished site like what you'd find at The Right Place or the Chamber of Commerce, but I think that's the beauty of it. People today seek the real grit about an area, not a slickly made marketing brochure.

Sometimes focusing on the negative, especially if people feel that these negative issues are impeding downtown's growth as the mecca of our metropolitan area, abusing tax payers, uglifying the urban environment, and/or taking Grand Rapids in the wrong direction, is justified. Expertise on making changes to laws, and how the current laws work, may be more indepth than what is available here from our members. But if enough sabers are rattled, perhaps our elected officials or the person(s) committing the offenses will take note. But like you, even incessant negativity wears on my nerves after a while. It requires a fine balance.

But seriously MiGuyz, not to pick on you but I have yet to meet you at any of our lunch-n-learns (as far as I know), at any of our task force meetings, or at any of our UP events. If you are genuinely asking UP members to be "adults" and affect change, you might be better served to get more involved yourself and see that in fact we are trying to do that very thing. Otherwise, it just appears that you are using this as an opportunity to defend an (allegedly) unscrupulous land-owner. Maybe the criticisms of this person are unwarranted, but man if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and smells like duck.....

I certainly don't condone threats of violence against anyone, but I have to confess I didn't realize people were talking about The Christmas Carol. :blush: And Joe was joking.

That's my dissertation for today.

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So now that we are done hugging each other and responding to *private* emails in the public forum, can we go back to the topic at hand:

Not so Nice* land speculator holds Very Good* urban revitalization non-profit hostage by walking out on a Too Good to Be True* offer from Very Good* non-profit. Not so Nice* leaves Very Good* non-profit on the line w/ a $4000 / month bill and only the option to sue Not so Nice* land speculator.

Not so Nice* is unavailable for comment as he is too busy trying to figure out how to attach frickin' laser beams to sharks heads.**

Joe

* Views expressed by JoeDowntown are solely his thoughts, and may not be factual. No land speculators were hurt in the writing of this message. Anyone offended by the thoughts conveyed in this message should immediate help as JoeDowntown's comments are known to cause permanent and irreparable damage to people who experience fainting spells, have heart conditions, pregnant women or kids under the height of 48 inches.

** This comment is just a flat out lie. JoeDowntown's comparison of Azzar to Dr. Evil should be seen as a weak attempt at humor. If said reader experiences hot flashes, vertigo, soreness, or if the effects last more than six hours, please contact your moderator immediately.

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I agree to an extent, but sometimes people just need to sound off and aren't trying to change the world, or they are just trying to shine a spotlight on issues that hopefully others will either investigate or for the proper decision-makers to take note and make changes. UP serves as a "letter to the editor", a blog, an online media source, a media rag, a marketing tool, an advocate meeting place, a photo album, a histogram, and an information clearinghouse all at the same time. It's fluid at all times and it's very difficult to "pin down" exactly what UP's mission is. If someone checked in on UP who was thinking about moving here, they would probably be pretty confused by most of the stuff we are talking about because they don't know the properties, parties or issues involved. We are not a highly polished site like what you'd find at The Right Place or the Chamber of Commerce, but I think that's the beauty of it. People today seek the real grit about an area, not a slickly made marketing brochure.

Sometimes focusing on the negative, especially if people feel that these negative issues are impeding downtown's growth as the mecca of our metropolitan area, abusing tax payers, uglifying the urban environment, and/or taking Grand Rapids in the wrong direction, is justified. Expertise on making changes to laws, and how the current laws work, may be more indepth than what is available here from our members. But if enough sabers are rattled, perhaps our elected officials or the person(s) committing the offenses will take note. But like you, even incessant negativity wears on my nerves after a while. It requires a fine balance.

But seriously MiGuyz, not to pick on you but I have yet to meet you at any of our lunch-n-learns (as far as I know), at any of our task force meetings, or at any of our UP events. If you are genuinely asking UP members to be "adults" and affect change, you might be better served to get more involved yourself and see that in fact we are trying to do that very thing. Otherwise, it just appears that you are using this as an opportunity to defend an (allegedly) unscrupulous land-owner. Maybe the criticisms of this person are unwarranted, but man if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and smells like duck.....

I certainly don't condone threats of violence against anyone, but I have to confess I didn't realize people were talking about The Christmas Carol. :blush: And Joe was joking.

That's my dissertation for today.

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I certainly encourage talking about what can be changed in Grand Rapids, including the negative issues. My point continues to be that personal attacks are inappropriate. If people need to "sound off" in a way that attacks others, including fellow UP members, it can be done elsewhere.

Ad hominem arguments seldom create the change desired. I am not questioning the motivation or desire of JoeDowntown or others. I am stating that personal attacks are not productive and can be counter-productive. The Christmas Carole reference does not stand alone in poorly chosen comments. And by the way, they are against UP rules as stated on the Rules page.

You are correct, I don't believe we have met. I have worked diligently and successfully in my life to save historic buildings, change neighborhood dynamics and improve the quality of life for many city residents. I have contributed much in this city and more in others to bring about positive change. I am trying to lead discussion away from personal attacks.

Maybe the next Lunch-and-Learn should be about affecting positive change, dealing with City Hall, and putting pressure on companies or individuals who are holding up progress. I know it can be done legally and more effectively than name calling.

I'm done discussing the appropriateness of personal attacks because there is no defense for them. I will continue to raise my point to moderators if I continue read them on this board.

We should discuss the best ways to motivate this developer to keep his agreement. Do citizens need to notify the city about property issues? Has anyone contacted the mayor or city council to plead the case and put pressure on the developer? Have the adjacent neighbors been contacted? Are they willing to create a protest and get some on-air TV News coverage? Will the court process already mentioned be the most efficient?

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Interesting...

...you will find that there are movers and shakers....in other words, people who talk and people who get things done. The latter unfortunately get beaten down in every aspect whether you like it or not...on the front lines or behind the scenes at the highest level.

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Kudos to MiGuyz, I am with you.

I am/was a newbie to UP and would post a comment every once and a while when I thought I could say something of significance, not wanting to be a posts count builder. Anyway, after getting skewered by another UP member by being called 'lame or just plain ignorant' or something like that, I could have fired back but where does that get oneself? Why lower oneself. Those who know me know different. I been off UP since. The Grand Rapids UP group seems to have grown into a 'good ol boys' club, or worse yet, a cyberculture Lord of the Flies. And you will/may not find some of us at the meet 'n greets; I don't see anything wrong with that. One can contribute in many different ways to society and to a public forum. I spend my dollars daily at many of our urban businesses. I live in urban GR and I am very involved in GR urban neighborhoods both time wise and financially. How many can truly say that? Maybe we should start a count of those who truly spend a significant amount of their time and money and effort and elbow grease in our urban area; bet that count wouldn't get too high. I'll start by saying, "I do"; certainly not the most, but not the least, but I do and I have paid my dues! Enough said.

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Unfortunately it takes more money that most have to 'get in the game'. One thing I've learned is that to get people to see your way you need to align your interests. some people don't care about non-profits, or urban renewal. in that instance, they need a carrot. a choice peice of property, some development interest, etc. In most cities it seems that a few parties control the majority of the real estate. this stems from being in the right place at the right time and haveing the forsight and means to purchase a number of properties thereby controling development. you see it in detroit with the ilitches. there aren't any bigger movers and shakers than that group and they've made more in real estate than they ever did from little caesers. of course they have a real interest in the revitalization of detroit. I didn't know much about this Azzar until now. he seems like a real dirt bag from what I've read here. his interests are in making money, not in improving grand rapids. that is his perogitive and is the way that capitalism works. he needs to be sold that he will never get a better offer for his property in question. he will not relinquish it until he is convinced that this is the best he's going to get. your desperation is apparent and he uses this against you to extract as much as he can. it sounds like the property is nearly useless for development and it is unlikely that he has a lot of other offers coming in. only when he knows that you can walk away and will do so to his detriment will he sell because that's when he is the one with something to lose. he's not in this for charity, i doubt that he is planning for some great family retreat for this location.

it actually seems like lighthouse should have the upper hand in negotiation here. the problem is that a great amount needs to be invested before a deal can be struck. what needs to happen, and it may be too late for this, is a third party(one with grand rapids best interests at heart) that can afford to purchase this property steps in and offers to purchase this. he offers something reasonalble to azzar and tells him to either take it or leave it. when azzar comes back with some shenanigan, he gets a big F*** You. if he is a smart business man(and it sounds like he is) he'll accept the deal because he has nothing better. there is a side deal between lighthouse and this third party to acquire this at cost. the land is purchased from azzar and then sold to lighthouse when financing is completed. this way azzar has no real leverage to screw you with. arranging this may be easier said that done the way it's going now it doesn't sound too easy either but the game needs to be played and sometimes deals need some lubrication.

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That's what I have been thinking jasonsquiresdo. The city or DDA should look at buying up the Azzar properties, and then turn around and sell them via RFP at a discounted price to willing developers (of which there are probably many). What's the difference if the city buys a property for $500,000 and then sells it to a developer for $250,000 (with the stipulation that is MUST be redeveloped within a specific period of time), or gives a developer $250,000 in tax credits if they buy the property at full price? It still creates redevelopment and puts more income tax into city coffers, which is their bread and butter. And then it makes it look a lot more feasible for the developer.
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That's what I have been thinking jasonsquiresdo. The city or DDA should look at buying up the Azzar properties, and then turn around and sell them via RFP at a discounted price to willing developers (of which there are probably many). What's the difference if the city buys a property for $500,000 and then sells it to a developer for $250,000 (with the stipulation that is MUST be redeveloped within a specific period of time), or gives a developer $250,000 in tax credits if they buy the property at full price? It still creates redevelopment and puts more income tax into city coffers, which is their bread and butter. And then it makes it look a lot more feasible for the developer.
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Seems like the City has more leverage than just a purchase offer. And given Azzar's track record, there's no guarantee that a public-sector buyer will have any more success.

Azzar probably has a pincushion adorned with the "sunny Calder" logo (see Grandville firehouse story).

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at least a developer wouldn't have invested a great deal of time and money into something only to have it hijacked at the last moment though. Azzar or his berethen may not sell to the city either. the city though has the resources to walk away from a deal that doesn't make sense. in the interest of business though these deals would go through because if is fair it doesn't make sense for azzar or anybody else to not do it.
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I agree with GRDad; the history is very insightful.

I am also very happy to hear the neighborhood is actively supporting your plans, Dave. I heard from a respected community leader today that he thought Lighthouse is "one of the good guys." I'm sure that is common knowledge around here, but it never hurts to say it again.

Where do the appropriate commissioners stand? (I don't know if the area is in the first or third ward.) Would one be willing to make supportive statement on, say, Wood-TV?

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I agree with GRDad; the history is very insightful.

I am also very happy to hear the neighborhood is actively supporting your plans, Dave. I heard from a respected community leader today that he thought Lighthouse is "one of the good guys." I'm sure that is common knowledge around here, but it never hurts to say it again.

Where do the appropriate commissioners stand? (I don't know if the area is in the first or third ward.) Would one be willing to make supportive statement on, say, Wood-TV?

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