Devereaux Meadows redevelopment/riverwalk concept

[CapeFearRiver10]

Dude chill I'm not a naysayer...

Heck I gave an idea but someone shot mine down by calling it Mall of America & thats not even what I ask for, but I rather the city be creative than being the 2nd (3rd,4th,5th) city to have this or that

I never said they should not use the land but be creative

[miamiblue]

I don't necessarily see this idea as copying other cities. The fact that there is a natural stream very close to that location that has already been awarded grants for improvement makes it a natural choice IMHO.

Cities need to learn to take advantage of their natural features and protect them in the first place - riverwalks should be automatic if there is a river or stream in a good location. To me, cities that don't/didn't take advantage of their rivers (Tulsa, OK and Charleston, WV are the first to come to mind) are really losing out.

I think that a project like this would not only be good for Raleigh's image and economy, but also for Pigeon House Branch, which is the city's most polluted stream.

[avery]

Look at downtown Greenville, SC and Reedy River:

http://www.greenvilledailyphoto.com/wp-con...ple_900x600.jpg

http://www.greenvilledailyphoto.com/wp-con...son_900x600.jpg

Link: http://www.greenvilledailyphoto.com/index....es/reedy-river/

[DPK]

I've never really looked at Pigeon House, but how much flow does it have? Could it be partially dammed/enlarged to provide more of an "experience"?

[Jones_]

Pigeon House at Peace is probably 10 feet wide and a foot deep. By the time you get to wade its more like 20 feet wide and 2 feet deep (I walked the whole thing last fall) There are at least two cool natural waterfalls (just a babbling 12 inch drop or so though). There is a ton of C&D debris pushed up to the stream edges I'd love to see excavated out...its poking out of the stream banks along most of the stretch I walked. Couple of responses to above comments:

1)It is indeed hard to call this idea copy cat and then present your idea via Youtube.(pot calling the kettle black?

2)The San Antonio Riverwalk has almost no natural feel to its more like venice with restaurants and hotels pushed right up to (fake) blue water with water taxis moving people around. The south of Peace might be something like that but north of Peace should emphasize natural beauty and be something of an oasis in the City.....speaking of the City...

3)Its certainly not too far out to be success. Most people consider this downtown or the edge of downtown proper. I think the location practically ensures its success...and how do you measure success here anyway? There's no fee to visit a City park..its a City amentiy

4) Peace could bridge the creek here if adjacent properties were acquired. The tracks bridge Peace farther up the hill to the east on the other side of Capital. Having walked it several times to gauge the possibilities, it appears it would level Peace out nicely in this area. Oh yeah, the tracks to the west....I think they would be clear without modification too....Good to consider possible deal killers though...

5)Also, my personal preference for downtown is as a livable neighborhood. I don't think big attraction theme parks are compatible with this, though I know some will disagree. My ideas tend to center on being able take care of lifes daily needs, have places to refresh the soul, safe regarding traffic, demographic mix etc....some entertainment yes, such as this park/riverwalk...

All in all I think the city is evolving in a pretty good direction and I think Pigeon House adds a touch that is both lacking and needed.

[ericurbanite]

I think that whole stretch of Capital/Peace along the edge of downtown has a lot of potential!! For now though, there is nothing there which could be some reason to blame for downtowns image over the years. I sure hope there is a developer that has vision/creativity to realize the potential there. Even though the city wants something there, it could be tough finding a developer. I wish I had a lot of money and was a developer, I would bring Dubai's mentality (not that extreme though) to Raleigh!!! haa

[JeffC]

LOL at posting a video of an imaginary indoor theme park created using the Roller Coaster Tycoon III computer game (although I luv the game and have played it in the past)...Somehow, I don't think RCT takes into account zoning and permitting, construction costs, or environmental/site concerns...

[ncwebguy]

The city-owned land (bound by Peace, West, Dorrch, and Capitol Blvd) is a tall but skinny parcel -- 1 to 1.5 blocks east-west by 4-5 blocks north-south, and it tilts a litte in line with the railroad tracks. It is big enough to make an impact, especially as the north gateway into downtown, but not big enough to get crazy, like the Dix property.

The city does *not* own the land north of Dorch or west of West, but if that was part of the project, something nice could come of it. It would take a *lot* of work, but if the parcels bound by Peace/train tracks/Dorch (continued west)/West would allow for a realignment of West next to the tracks (and the tracks could have a trolley connection to State Government and multimodal TTA stations), parking decks on West could support shops/restautrants/hotels overlooking the "river" with lower intensity use (or just parkland) between the river (slightly shifted east) and Capitol Blvd.

I don't know if this needs to be park land, as Fred Fletcher and Halifax Park (and the state government mall) are not far as the crow flies, but disconnected due to both sets of train tracks and Capitol Blvd.

[phoenixnc]

This is really an amazing idea.

I also wish the grid could be corrected in this area (connecting Pilot Mill to Five Points, capital realigned, etc.)

That garbage truck area has always annoyed me because of its proximity to downtown, glenwood south, and seaboard. I wish it could incorporate more of a park area with retail along West Street and possibly Capital, but I am not sure exactly what the land boundaries are.

[Jones_]

With a developer in hand you could see something sooner rather than later because I saw the "groundbreaking" of the new trash truck area at Raleigh Blvd/Westinghouse not too long ago...tents and sweet tea with all the officials talking it up. The "big idea" charette (sp) also talked about flyovers connecting the Pilot Mill area to Five Points either via Wade or Fairview. In my drawing I expected nimbyism so also sold it as bike/pedestrian connections only. I think Deveraux street (one of those anyway) used to connect across the tracks to West from Glenwood, but the residents of that street would never allow it to be reconnected. I am sure the Cotton Mill would love to have access to the rest of downtown without having cut through Jersey Mikes or loop up to Fairview and back south again. Unfortunately Pilot Mill, The Cotton Mill and the railroad tracks set the stage for this area to become a light industry/warehouse type area....these mills and tracks being the very things that give the area potential to be more than that (mills redeveloped, TTA station coming eventually)....

[dmccall]

I'd love to see Fairview connected to the Mordecai area.

Neighborhoods have always held too much power when it comes to improvements like these flyovers. They have knee-jerk reactions about "too much traffic", however they have no clue how much better their lives would be if they didn't have to rely on Peace St. or some other major artery all the time. I live near the Yadkin/Beltline underpass and it is an incredible convenience for hundreds and hundreds of families.

This the the problem with minimum access roads, bodies of water, and railroads. They impose a serious sieve to everything moving perpendicular. People on "quiet" streets should realize that the more connections there are, the more quiet the streets will be. Hayes Barton has a ton of way in and out, and no street, except for St. Mary's, feels any sort of dangerous pressure. Limit the ways in and out and you have heavy traffic on the major roads.

[phoenixnc]

I'd love to see Fairview connected to the Mordecai area.

Neighborhoods have always held too much power when it comes to improvements like these flyovers. They have knee-jerk reactions about "too much traffic", however they have no clue how much better their lives would be if they didn't have to rely on Peace St. or some other major artery all the time. I live near the Yadkin/Beltline underpass and it is an incredible convenience for hundreds and hundreds of families.

This the the problem with minimum access roads, bodies of water, and railroads. They impose a serious sieve to everything moving perpendicular. People on "quiet" streets should realize that the more connections there are, the more quiet the streets will be. Hayes Barton has a ton of way in and out, and no street, except for St. Mary's, feels any sort of dangerous pressure. Limit the ways in and out and you have heavy traffic on the major roads.

[Captain Awesome]

Driving through that area during this evenings storms, I got the impression that the 'river' that would build could be pretty neat. The creek had swelled considerable because of the storms giving it a much more substantial look. Additional dredging and maybe widening not only would be aesthetically pleasing but seems like it would help the flood prone areas further up 'creek' on Atlantic and Wake Forest.

[mingusb1]

Hello, this is my first post on urbanplanet, and I look forward to learning a lot more from this site.

Regarding a "riverwalk", the key ingredient is missing here in downtown Raleigh--a river. I have lived here for a few years and have been getting to know the city and area. One thing I have felt is that it doesn't have a "homey" feel to it like other cities I am familiar with, and I believe this is in part because it lacks a major water feature as a hub. I am from the Minneapolis area originally, and have also lived in cities and towns in OR, WA, MT, and CA that are situated on rivers and/or coastal bays. The bottom line is that downtown Raleigh is situated in a headwaters position in the Neuse Basin, so no major stream features occur. So, we just don't have "riverwalk hydrology" in the downtown area.

Regarding potential stream restoration along Pigeon House, it is an interesting idea, but a risky one in terms of cost/benefit. The stream drains an area with extremely high impervious cover, is extremely constrained by roads and infrastructure, and essentially functions itself like a storm drain. Even if the money and political will were mobilized for a project to "daylight" sections of the channel, re-shape the banks and floodplain, plant native vegetation, etc. you would always have the limitations of a very "flashy" rainfall/runoff relationship, high levels of pollution, and exotic invasive species.

The bottom line is that you could make the stream look better, but it would cost a lot of money and effort and the result may only really be a cosmetic improvement. However, I am watershed scientist not trained in urban design/planning, so this cosmetic improvement may, by itself, be of real worth. However, if you did all of this, you would have a headwater urban stream, not a river.

Anyway, I look forward to further discussion.

[Gard]

^^^

Welcome to UP and thank you for sharing your expertise as a watershed scientist .

[jfmecca]

Yeah, but Headwater Urban Streamwalk isn't quite as sexy.

[Jones_]

Hello, this is my first post on urbanplanet, and I look forward to learning a lot more from this site.

Regarding a "riverwalk", the key ingredient is missing here in downtown Raleigh--a river. I have lived here for a few years and have been getting to know the city and area. One thing I have felt is that it doesn't have a "homey" feel to it like other cities I am familiar with, and I believe this is in part because it lacks a major water feature as a hub. I am from the Minneapolis area originally, and have also lived in cities and towns in OR, WA, MT, and CA that are situated on rivers and/or coastal bays. The bottom line is that downtown Raleigh is situated in a headwaters position in the Neuse Basin, so no major stream features occur. So, we just don't have "riverwalk hydrology" in the downtown area.

Regarding potential stream restoration along Pigeon House, it is an interesting idea, but a risky one in terms of cost/benefit. The stream drains an area with extremely high impervious cover, is extremely constrained by roads and infrastructure, and essentially functions itself like a storm drain. Even if the money and political will were mobilized for a project to "daylight" sections of the channel, re-shape the banks and floodplain, plant native vegetation, etc. you would always have the limitations of a very "flashy" rainfall/runoff relationship, high levels of pollution, and exotic invasive species.

The bottom line is that you could make the stream look better, but it would cost a lot of money and effort and the result may only really be a cosmetic improvement. However, I am watershed scientist not trained in urban design/planning, so this cosmetic improvement may, by itself, be of real worth. However, if you did all of this, you would have a headwater urban stream, not a river.

Anyway, I look forward to further discussion.

[miamiblue]

I'm not really sure where else to post this, but I know it has been mentioned here. I snapped a picture of the Fletcher Park water garden progress about two weeks ago.

[mingusb1]

Hello, in discussing urban stream restoration in terms of cost/benefit, I am basically considering the risk of achieving little water quality and fish/wildlife habitat improvements with the great expense of "daylighting", earthwork, retrofitting, etc. Jones133 stated that it takes around 4 inches of rain in a 24 hour period for Pigeon House to flood in the vicinity of Capital and Fenton (Dunkin Donuts). That sounds accurate.

Now, that the channel has such a large capacity, and so infrequently accesses a "floodplain" feature is one of the reasons (in addition to upstream impervious cover) that water quality and habitat are so impacted along the stream reach. Streams do best when they overtop their banks regularly (almost every year). This attenuates downstream flooding and allows sediment and pollutants to be removed from streamflow. Of course, for those building infrastructure in a floodplain it has been in their interest to increase channel capacity and lessen the frequency that the water exceeds the banks and gets out on to the flat. This is often done by ditching and dredging, and streams can also downcut by themselves if, for example, upstream land is disturbed creating more runoff and large/faster flows in downstream channels.

So, we could probably spend a lot to make the Pigeon House channel look better, but the fish and aquatic organisms might not notice the difference. However, as I stated before, it could be of worth for us people. I will defer to other expertise on this point and think this is an important discussion point.

Regarding the Fletcher Park structure, I did not realize that was intended to benefit water quality. I think stormwater management in a network such as Pigeon House is likely the best place to start (rather than doing in-stream/downstream projects), and am interested to see how the science (and art) of retrofitting storm pipes with gardens, wetlands, ponds etc. will evolve. I know there are some really sharp people over at NCSU working on those topics.

Thanks again.

[Jones_]

^ I am not an expert in aquatic habitat but wouldn't a stream that rarely overflows its banks be just as healthy as one that does in its natural state, with the main difference being only in type of aquatic life? I just joined a cleanup of the Creek in Chavis Park and surprise, it had crawfish and other dollar -bill-sized fish in it. Its flood characteristics appear to be similar to Pigeon House. Pigeon House and Chavis both residing in the area of the fall line will have close to saturated dissolved oxygen which naturally mitigates some types of pollution and certainly provides oxygen for vertabrates. So I do think the visual benefit of daylighting the stream has the benefit of restoring the original natural state and the associated life forms should notice...granted stormwater capture and treatment throughout the basin would be needed to fully accomplish this as the Fletcher project is doing (and teh one farther up Glenwood off Harvey Street.

[capitalapts]

Hi and welcome,

I am a licensed environmental engineer, but my hydrology experience is limited to school. I also have a keen interest in history. Melding those two...historically streams in Raleigh have been notorious for flash flooding. Crabtree Creek is written about quite often going back to the 1700's for washing away mills and unwary plantation owners homes. You are right...the amount of urban runoff is pretty high for the watershed. At a glance it looks like this is compounded by funny topography that is both wide basins (like the sandhills) but with more narrow channels and outfalls (like the foothills) central Wake being situated on the fall line from Piedmont to Coastal Plain. The city has is working on a stormwater project in Fletcher Park along one branch of Pigeon House. I believe this water garden is designed to control flash discharges from this point. Observing Pigeon House down near Dunkin Donuts (stream flows north to there) it takes a pretty significant rain event(I think 4 inches in 24 hours is about where I see it break) to spill the banks that far down, and I guesstimate the channel is 200 sqft. Also whatever size culvert is already underground seems to handle the flow fine, and Ornamentea never seems to suffer damage from the small daylighted section adjacent to it.....all this just to say, I think it'd fare ok. Also my idea for shouldering costs was in conjunction with the realigning of Harrington to Peace with maybe a Clean Water Management Trust Fund grant thrown in to help.

[Jones_]

Hmm. I am surprised the two experts are those most opposed to the idea. I am not sure how corps 404 and dwq 401 permits fit into the stormwater progam...I imagine issuance of phase I MS4's (Raleigh's is NCS000245 I think) must include language about this. If anything the NCS permits would seem like they should trump 404 and 401 though I am not sure if the Fletcher project is being constructed within the confines of the permit or not, or if it only functions with regards to the education, and outreach and illicit discharge at construction sites, etc. Regardless...

I don't think an incremental approach is being given any thought here which is what this has to be if Pigeon House is to ever be fully restored(daylighting first, stromwater treatment later). When I say "daylighting", I certainly mean restoration of the channel and a 50' buffer, which is what the Neuse rules require. 50', I assume is enough for typical overland flow to slow and enter the stream via infiltration instead of direct stream discharge, therefore leaving all the yummy N and P in the soil for vegetation. Is any stormwater bmp or restoration worth the cost to the public if its not a dam? Its oh so very hard to link dollars to results, as I am one of the people the EPA relies on in that effort. I coordinate several EPA programs at the State level, one being the State Revolving Fund. I also know a few folks at the Trust Fund....we are sister agencies. I will be in their file cabinets in a few days researching more stuff for the EPA. I anticipate finding a few daylighting projects in the mix. Urban runoff is a greater source of pollution than municipal point source dischargers by far. I don't see how citing flood frequencies discounts the benefits of cracking open the culverts or makes it a dubious project. Its not envisioned to be a San Antonio River Walk... just a grassy path with a stream next to it and some benches...if sun fish and craw fish are living in Chavis Park I am sure that the Pigeon House flow can support that as well. And if Capital gets buried in a tunnel like suggested at the "big idea" charette then that part is licked as well

[ncwebguy]

From the Powerhouse Plaza thread, this N&O article says the land across Peace from Deveraux Meadows was recently purchased by the Powerhouse Plaza developer. Specifically the car wash and oil change/inspection center. I wonder if punching Harrington through to the Capitol Blvd ramp along the east side of the property (the darker pavement in the Google photo) would make putting a tower on that corner more attractive?

They probably won't do anything there till conditions improve *and* the Powerhouse Plaza project is underway/finished, but at least it is owned by someone with an interest in developing in the area.

[Subway Scoundrel]

From the Powerhouse Plaza thread, this N&O article says the land across Peace from Deveraux Meadows was recently purchased by the Powerhouse Plaza developer. Specifically the car wash and oil change/inspection center. I wonder if punching Harrington through to the Capitol Blvd ramp along the east side of the property (the darker pavement in the Google photo) would make putting a tower on that corner more attractive?

They probably won't do anything there till conditions improve *and* the Powerhouse Plaza project is underway/finished, but at least it is owned by someone with an interest in developing in the area.

[jumboman]

From the Powerhouse Plaza thread, this N&O article says the land across Peace from Deveraux Meadows was recently purchased by the Powerhouse Plaza developer. Specifically the car wash and oil change/inspection center. I wonder if punching Harrington through to the Capitol Blvd ramp along the east side of the property (the darker pavement in the Google photo) would make putting a tower on that corner more attractive?

They probably won't do anything there till conditions improve *and* the Powerhouse Plaza project is underway/finished, but at least it is owned by someone with an interest in developing in the area.