Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[MZT]

Ridership won't slump at all I think, as long as safety concerns and vandalism are kept under control. Gas will probably stay above $2 a gallon for the rest of our lives.

Edited December 14, 2007 by MZT

[uptownliving]

More here. Also the glass was inserted for a few more of the northern stations of S. End, including the E/W Blvd Station. Trains were very full today, again. In fact, when I left at 7:30, it took forever for a train to come, but found out later that parts of the track were down to one side only for repairs, looks like someone broke another one of the gates and/or they were fixing some of the crossing arms or upgrading them someway. That delayed all the trains this evening twice as long, unfortunatly, and therefor the trains running twice as occupied, which when we left the 3rd St. Station it was packed arm to arm, and really could have benefited from a second train.

Thanks for posting those pics, I was actually at the E/W Blvd station on Thursday but didnt get over to that side of it to see the new artwork. Looks good from your pics.

Regarding the track closure, they are actually making modifications to the Bland and Park Ave crossings. I walked by there on Thursday and they had actually lifted part of the track about a foot off the ground and were making modifications to the concrete crossing. I checked the Charlotte Future website and it looks like by 6am on Saturday (tomorrow) they should be back to having both tracks open.

[monsoon]

Actually the line should be designed for 35,000/day which are the specs that I heard. Surely they should have at least designed the stations for the 2020 ridership of 18,000. At least from the last numbers I saw we are still a good ways from even that number. So this isn't an issue of being surprised by the early ridership numbers.

The station design is a sore point and one of controversy because they had to cut back on them when cats ran the budget over.

[Sabaidee]

I think the ridership will continue to grow along with residents along the LRT and commuters. No one mentions that Charlotte is going to have a continued stream of events, like the CIAA, ACC Tournments, Taste of Charlotte, Speed Street, and so on. I'm sure most of those attending those events will make use of the LRT. The CIAA will be a big test as an additional 100,000 people will venture into Uptown, I think it's best to advertise those park and ride lots to ease some parking congestion during that event.

[roningreensboro]

Just reading the post about ridership, does anyone think that ridership and demand will grow to the point that CATS will have to run the train 24hrs? I think that Charlotte is growing at a rate that it's downtown density, population, etc., will be comparable to other major metropolitans.

[monsoon]

Just reading the post about ridership, does anyone think that ridership and demand will grow to the point that CATS will have to run the train 24hrs? I think that Charlotte is growing at a rate that it's downtown density, population, etc., will be comparable to other major metropolitans.

It should be noted that very few transit systems run 24 hours/day. London and Tokyo both shut down their systems at night and you really can't get any more busy than that. They use this period of time to do track and system maintenance and to clean the trains.

[roningreensboro]

It should be noted that very few transit systems run 24 hours/day. London and Tokyo both shut down their systems at night and you really can't get any more busy than that. They use this period of time to do track and system maintenance and to clean the trains.

The one thing that CATS should probably consider is some of the night buisnesses that stay open past 1am and customers leave at like 3am. If the train ran at least until 4am on certain nights ridership would be at a good level for that time of night. When I visit Charlotte with friends of mine from Greensboro we usually go to a club then to Fuel, or Pita pit afterwards for food and by the time we leave it is 3am. Parking is always a pain and now that the park and rides are avaliable, it is logical now to just park there and take the train in. It would suck though to finish eating and then have no way of getting back to the park and ride. I see where it may not work now but possibly in the future though. Maybe only heavy rail systems like LA, NYC, and Chicago can afford to run 24hrs.

[swh1972]

I haven't ridden the Light Rail outside of Uptown yet, but I was curious about what types of advertising people have seen, or know about being planned along the line. I don't recall there being adds inside the rail or at the stops, but I could have missed them. Boston uses some cool ad techniques inside the tunnels where a series of "frames" of a commercial are placed next to each other, and when the train passes at high speed, they appear to be a movie (kind of like a flip book).

[Seabreeze]

I haven't ridden the Light Rail outside of Uptown yet, but I was curious about what types of advertising people have seen, or know about being planned along the line. I don't recall there being adds inside the rail or at the stops, but I could have missed them. Boston uses some cool ad techniques inside the tunnels where a series of "frames" of a commercial are placed next to each other, and when the train passes at high speed, they appear to be a movie (kind of like a flip book).

I've seen advertisements for Reid's inside of the vehicles and there is a billboard by the interestion of Woodlawn you can see from the train with a Nike advertisement I believe right now. Other than that, haven't noticed much else.

[mshook]

The one thing that CATS should probably consider is some of the night buisnesses that stay open past 1am and customers leave at like 3am. If the train ran at least until 4am on certain nights ridership would be at a good level for that time of night. When I visit Charlotte with friends of mine from Greensboro we usually go to a club then to Fuel, or Pita pit afterwards for food and by the time we leave it is 3am. Parking is always a pain and now that the park and rides are avaliable, it is logical now to just park there and take the train in. It would suck though to finish eating and then have no way of getting back to the park and ride. I see where it may not work now but possibly in the future though. Maybe only heavy rail systems like LA, NYC, and Chicago can afford to run 24hrs.

All of the fun and nothing good happens after 2AM. I think the fear may be drunken violence, vandolism, lewdness, etc and the cost of the necessary increased police presence.

My friends train in and cab out.

[fulcrumsf]

Just reading the post about ridership, does anyone think that ridership and demand will grow to the point that CATS will have to run the train 24hrs? I think that Charlotte is growing at a rate that it's downtown density, population, etc., will be comparable to other major metropolitans.

I don't think that will ever happen. San Francisco trains stop at around 1am, Frankfurt Germany is around the same time. I believe Toronto, and Chicago are of similar times.

What San Francisco does is provide Night Owl buses to run from around 1am to 5am in place of some of their train routes. With some of the major buses running 24 hours but less frequently during late night. But then again, Charlotte doesn't have any gated platform stations so it would be easier to run at least one train for 24 hours and a couple of major bus lines for 24 hours as well.

[roningreensboro]

^ If you think about it, if Charlotte did this they would start down the path of a 24hr city.

[Nostyle]

I've been riding the rail to work everyday, monday through friday, and I'm glad to see the number of people using the service, but I wondered how busy they'd be on a weekend...so my wife and I decided to head uptown for some lunch today (a cold, miserable, uneventful saturday morning). We grabbed the 10 o'clock train at the 485 station, and to my amazement the train was FULL. On the way in I noticed that a good number of riders were probably parents who wanted to take their kids for a ride, so this ridership is likely to decline over time, but on the way home the train was even MORE packed (standing room only, and barely any standing room for that matter), and the number of kids/families that made up the ridership was far less than on the way in. As we passed by trains heading inbound (while stopped at stations) you could see that those trains were packed too. A man sitting behind me even commented out loud about how full the passing trains were. Our outbound train had a surveyer on it...not quite sure how he does his job, but everytime people would board the train he'd walk about halfway up the car with a clicker in his hand and apparently attempt to get a head count of riders. He had his hands full today with the train being as crowded as it was. I know I wouldn't have been able to keep track.

Looks to me like this line is gonna do just fine in terms of ridership.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Nostyle

[staffer]

Today's Charlotte Observer has an excellent story about NE corridor funding and how high ridership on the South Line will help. High points:

1) Higher than expected ridership on South Line might raise ridership projections for the Northeast Corridor line and make it more financially feasible

2) Projected daily ridership of 9,100 weekday trips has consistently remained above 12,000.

3) The city of Charlotte allocated $500,000 on Monday to pay for an aerial survey of the proposed line, which has to be done when there are no leaves on the trees. That money is an advance on a $27 million preliminary engineering contract for the Northeast Corridor to be finalized in January

Edited December 16, 2007 by staffer

[staffer]

A Charlotte mom has posted an extensive guide to the South Line from a mom's perspective, including safety issues, a journal of a trip with her child, info on stops, parking, etc.

[Nostyle]

^That mom's report concurs with what I was saying about all the kids. My wife and I passed by Founders hall and there were kids everywhere. But again, the train ride home was even more packed, and not nearly as many of those passengers were parents with their kids. It's nice to know that everyone, including worrisome parents, seem to be enjoying the train.

[Sabaidee]

It's good to hear that suburban type moms are eager to take the Lynx. No matter what type of train, light or heavy the platforms will pose a danger to little kids and even adults. Just with light weight, someone can fall onto the track of a subway station. Light rail is still safer than heavy rail if anyone was to fall off the platform, the platforms on heavy rail systems are higher and there's the electrified third rail.

I'm really excited about the Blue Line extension, beside inflation and rising construction materials costs what is responsible for the $750M price tag? It seems like the only aerial structures would be crossing over the frieght rail lines paralleling to Davidson Street/NCRR and possible tunneling or aerial structure over Harris Blvd adding to the hefty price tag.

[monsoon]

.....

I'm really excited about the Blue Line extension, beside inflation and rising construction materials costs what is responsible for the $750M price tag? It seems like the only aerial structures would be crossing over the frieght rail lines paralleling to Davidson Street/NCRR and possible tunneling or aerial structure over Harris Blvd adding to the hefty price tag.

They have to purchase all of the land from Sugar Creek north to UNCC to build that part of the line. It takes up as much room as a 2 lane highway and since this area is already developed, it is going to be expensive to condemn and buy all that land.

[Andyc545]

To be noted: The land that is being used for the Light Rail on the UNCC campus will be free, making the extra 1 1/2 mile journey onto campus actually cheaper than going down Tryon.

Bridging or tunneling at the Harris / Tryon intersection is suppose to be costly. This intersection, correct me if I'm wrong, is the busiest intersection (in terms of amount of vehicles) in Charlotte, and there will be anywhere from 6 to 10 lanes worth of road to cross in addition to the repairs/updates to the roads in this area. Also, there will be some added expenses, possibly, getting the train across the greenway / stream on UNCC campus, as well as possibe vibration reduction technology, for the sensitive labs. The NE line is, like Monsoon said, much more built up then it was for the South Line.

[dubone]

All of those elements like a few bridges and the right of way alongside Tryon ARE expensive, but they are part of the budget so it isn't like it is surprise for the planners. In fact, that is the main reason, other than high ridership numbers, that this was programmed to be the next line, as inflation for land and right of way and bridges are very high.

In contrast the streetcar has neither, so its costs don't rise as much by pushing it out a decade.

Regardless of whether bridges and land are high, they are planned and with a higher rate of expected inflation than used for planning the South line.

I'm sure the land along the rail will get an expected price, since CATS has experience working with railroads on that. The land along the weave is publicly owned and I'm sure the hospital and Eastway mall will be easy to work with. So whe you break it down into parts, it isn't as much voodoo.

[monsoon]

I am thinking that if they take the option to move the alignment from the existing ROW at Sugar Creek so that the train connects at the Asian (Tryon) Mall, then the property purchases between there and the highway 29/49 weave is where the costs are the most uncertain since dozens of property owners are involved. Interestingly enough, I believe there is still a plan to do something about that weave by the NCDOT and if there is, they really ought to coordinate the LRT with that project so that costs can be shared or minimized.

To be noted: The land that is being used for the Light Rail on the UNCC campus will be free, making the extra 1 1/2 mile journey onto campus actually cheaper than going down Tryon...

It actually adds to the cost because the train will travel down N. Tryon (Hwy 29) until it gets approximately past the hospital, then it will loop into UNCC, then it loops back out to N. Tryon and continues its journey north down Hwy 29. The route on the UNCC campus itself will be free but I am guessing this will save approximate 1/2 mile of track on N. Tryon itself. The reason for this route is they want to include University City in the travel, which means the train will jump Harris right at the intersection with N. Tryon. The UNCC route is definitely worth it, but the free land from UNCC isn't going to make a significant amount of difference in the costs to acquire land given the current alignment.

It should be noted the final alignment has not been decided upon. It may change depending on whether Charlotte wants the Sugar Creek station at the Asian Mall (they really ought to do this) and on the results of the upcoming engineering study once it is funded.

[Neo]

I don't think that will ever happen. San Francisco trains stop at around 1am, Frankfurt Germany is around the same time. I believe Toronto, and Chicago are of similar times.

That's not true, as a former Chicago resident, their rail system runs 24 hours a day though on limited schedules during the 1am-5am period. You can see an example of the Red Line (runs under State Street through downtown) schedule here: http://www.transitchicago.com/maps/rail/red/Lake.pdf

I can't speak of the other mentioned systems though.

[Andyc545]

I am thinking that if they take the option to move the alignment from the existing ROW at Sugar Creek so that the train connects at the Asian (Tryon) Mall, then the property purchases between there and the highway 29/49 weave is where the costs are the most uncertain since dozens of property owners are involved. Interestingly enough, I believe there is still a plan to do something about that weave by the NCDOT and if there is, they really ought to coordinate the LRT with that project so that costs can be shared or minimized.It actually adds to the cost because the train will travel down N. Tryon (Hwy 29) until it gets approximately past the hospital, then it will loop into UNCC, then it loops back out to N. Tryon and continues its journey north down Hwy 29. The route on the UNCC campus itself will be free but I am guessing this will save approximate 1/2 mile of track on N. Tryon itself. The reason for this route is they want to include University City in the travel, which means the train will jump Harris right at the intersection with N. Tryon. The UNCC route is definitely worth it, but the free land from UNCC isn't going to make a significant amount of difference in the costs to acquire land given the current alignment.

Yeah- that's what I meant. The little weave on campus is free land (around 1 1/2 miles I thought, but could be wrong) vs. that stretch of track that would have been along Tryon in front of the University (1/2 mile), which they would have had to pay for. According to one of the documents previously posted on this site, it was cheaper overall in cost to go onto campus (with the extended track length) vs. going just straight up Tryon in front of the University, obviously because of the land, and also added something like 2-3000 estimated riders. Either way, they are going to have to cross Harris, as that's not an option since it runs horizontally vs. the LRT line, and the remaining of the track of course will be along side of Tryon as it's the only logical choice.

I'm also wonder if they are looking at bridging/tunneling across the stop after the University, at Mallard Creek, as that has also become a major road just over the past 2 years. It is also a heavy intersection (Mallard Creek/Tryon) and would have to cross 6 lanes and a median at the turning lane, and is limited to swirving over to where there is less road on Mallard Creek because of a park that is located there as well as wildlife area.

[Justadude]

It all depends on what the train is trying to do. Part of the reason that the trains shut down in London and Tokyo is because they're a general citywide service that would be incredibly inefficient if it were to stay open 24/7 -- even in those cities, there just aren't that many people traveling citywide at 4am.

By contrast, the New Orleans streetcar operated 24 hours a day until Katrina hit (it's supposed to be back at 24-hour service in the next couple of years). It did good business in the wee hours because it gave partiers a way to return home after hitting Bourbon St. Compared to an extensive heavy-rail system it was fairly cheap and undoubtedly prevented countless unfortunate incidents over the years.

I don't see Charlotte getting to the point that it needs 24-hour rail, but I'm starting to see how it might make sense to run the Blue line between South End and Uptown till 2am. That would allow people to at least get back to their park-and-ride or take a shorter cab ride. And it would make it easier for businesses in those districts to draw late-night customers.

[monsoon]

It all depends on what the train is trying to do. Part of the reason that the trains shut down in London and Tokyo is because they're a general citywide service that would be incredibly inefficient if it were to stay open 24/7 -- even in those cities, there just aren't that many people traveling citywide at 4am.

Well actually in Tokyo, there are numerous independent entities that provide different aspects of service. There are 3 municipal subway systems (one in Yokohama), then there is JR which runs surface local express rail, and also numerous private train and monorail services (non governmental owned). It's not really city wide at all.

With that said, I think the point is that Charlotte really has no need to run a high capacity train line late into the night. Beyond the club goers, and I really suspect there aren't that many of them that are going to make use of a train at 2am, it's just now warranted. It should be noted the vast majority of night clubs in this city don't exist within range of the transit line.