Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[Scribe]

I've now gone end-to-end on the Lynx 4 times, just to observe. I have nothing new to add on the abrupt/jerky stops/starts throughout the BLE. Hopefully it is just early teething problems and will get addressed quickly.

What I do want to address is Uptown.

From Hill St to 11th is right at 1 mile -- the Lynx does not need 5 stops in one mile.

I think it is time for Charlotte/CATS to study the future alignment of the BL in Uptown.

I propose a tunnel under College St with 4 stops that span an entire block or more.

• Stonewall and MLK (station would be centered around The Green) - obviously the Convention Center
• 4th St (covers EpiCenter) closest stop to Trade and Tryon.
• 5th or 6th St
• 8th or 9th or 10th St - this one is much more flexible since the north side is so under-developed.

Because each station is 1+ block wide you would have exits in each direction, effectively making each station act  like today's 7th and 9th st stations, but with one station. (Eg. place a station under 9th street with exits coming out towards 10th and 8th and one in the middle of the platform at 9th St)

Why a tunnel? (remember this is 10+ yrs down the road - most likely a 20+ year project)

1. The current blocks will not allow more then 3 car trains (future growth)
2. It will bring the BL a block closer to Tryon St.
3. The College St alignment allows to keep all existing tracks outside I-277 - and should get easier on the North side of town because... Levin, so just parking lots.
4. Currently every crossing North of Trade St is at-grade. In order to fix that you would have to either elevate the existing tracks or go with the tunnel.
5. The tunnel will not disrupt Uptown BL while under construction as it is a new alignment.
6. The city gets to fix all the utilities underneath and whatever is not yet underneath for the future growth of CBD.
7. The "old" current alignment within uptown would become a beautiful pedestrian alley -- but one that spans the entire width of Uptown.

Cons:

1. Tunnels are expensive.
2. Charlotte Uptown has a lot of bedrock close to the surface.
3. Complexity -- especially for South of Trade section of the project.

The aqua-blue dots are not a perfect representation of station placement, but you get the idea.

Thoughts?

Edited March 28, 2018 by Scribe

[Matthew.Brendan]

The day Uptown gets subterranean stations I’ll eat my hat. 

[orulz]

Going underground on a brand new north south alignment would be a big waste of resources when the existing above-ground ROW is so high quality.  Seriously, Charlotte was unbelievably lucky to just have this right-of-way sitting around unused, only two blocks east of Tryon. It has only one grade crossing (MLK) between Carson and 5th, and the trains have full preepmtion with gates and flashers at all crossings, so trains should never have to stop for cars.  In places like Boston, Dallas, San Francisco, Baltimore, San Jose, Minneapolis, and basically anywhere else in the country with light rail, the trains actually have to stop and wait for stoplights, which is mildly aggravating at best. If Charlotte's blue line were like that, then I might be inclined to agree that a tunnel might be worth it,  in the super long term. But the Blue Line is already one of the highest-quality light rail lines in the US from this perspective. It is difficult to overstate how important this is.

I see the argument about the block size compared with train size. Indeed, a 4 car train would be slightly longer than a single Charlotte block. But before making trains longer to increase capacity, increase frequency first. If you ever get to 3-car trains running full of passengers at least every 3 minutes, then it's time to talk about lengthening the trains.

The only station where a longer train (4-cars, or even 5- or 6-cars) would block a street while it's stopped is 7th. The easiest way to handle this is just to close 7th street station. The next easiest is to just close 7th street to extend the platforms. The next option would be to build a grade separation at 7th street  by raising or lowering the tracks or the street.  Finally, the most expensive remedy that could possibly make sense, would be to just dig a trench on the existing right-of-way to carry the tracks below all the streets from 5th to 9th. Those last two options would cause a service disruption during construction, but it would be so much cheaper than a full subway that it makes my brain hurt.

So, with that said, what do you gain with a subway?

• You're 1 block closer to Tryon.  400 feet, or about 1.5 minutes on foot, but you would probably lose that much time or more riding escalators or elevators to get from a deep bored tunnel up to ground level.
• You get a Charlotte High Line in place of the tracks, which is nice, but wait - the pathways next to the tracks already accomplish this, at least north of MLK.
• The only conceivable argument that you're left with is that "Subways are cool, let's build one guys!!"

Now, the argument for an east-west subway under Trade is a bit stronger, but the streetcar is already there, and if you want a grade-separated east-west route I would say reallocating some space from the collector-distributor lanes on the Belk Freeway and building a cap over it from South to Church would be a better investment.

[15895]

Bad iPhone photo but here’s the view on the sugar creek bridge from the light rail 

Edited March 28, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, orulz said:

Going underground on a brand new north south alignment would be...

Not sure how it is a new alignment if we are talking -- most likely -- 20 yrs out... original BL is 11 years old, and in 20 years you're over 30 years. This is a planning exercise for the future, not a pie in the sky, for today.

4 hours ago, Scribe said:

Why a tunnel? (remember this is 10+ yrs down the road - most likely a 20+ year project)

 

8 minutes ago, orulz said:

Before making trains longer to increase capacity, increase frequency first. If you ever get to 3-car trains running full of passengers every 3 minutes, then it's time to talk about lengthening the trains.

If you've followed the Charlotte Lynx thread for the past year or so you would know that I am a vocal advocate for increasing frequency. My main argument is do not hold frequency or capacity as the silver bullet, they both are useful to ensure a long life of the system and must be used accordingly.

10 minutes ago, orulz said:

The only station where a longer train (4-cars, or even 5- or 6-cars) would have to block a street while it's stopped is 7th.

and 9th street because 10th street is planned to be recreated. You can actually see it on Google Maps where the light rail tracks are already prepared for the road intersection. But the story stays the same for everything north of Trade. If you close 7th street station where will you put the new station or just close 7th in favor of 9th?

 

15 minutes ago, orulz said:

build a grade separation at 7th street  by raising or lowering the tracks or the street.  Finally, the most expensive remedy that could possibly make sense, would be to just dig a trench on the existing right-of-way to carry the tracks below all the streets from 5th to 9th. Even this drastic overkill remedy would be so much cheaper than a subway it would make my brain hurt.

Any work on the existing line will guarantee a protracted interruption of service inside I-277.

BTW, these are the type of discussions I love to have, so please don't hold back. Hopefully we can have others join in with their ideas. Bad ideas should be shut down and exposed why they are bad, good ideas should be able to win over more support as details get discussed...

 

Additional reasons for why a tunnel.

• As I mentioned above --  by the time a tunnel could be a reality in Charlotte the existing alignment will be well over 30 years old (for BL) and well over 20 years for the BLE.  Charlotte has a lot to learn in operating a light rail efficiently and effectively.
• 44 people move to Charlotte every day, if that continues for the next 20 years then you have ~330k more people in the city limits.
• Charlotte Metro area is growing 100+/day (last number I heard was ~150 per day) calculation with 150/day * 20 years is 1.1 million people more in the Charlotte Metro area over the next 20 years. This article just says "more than 100 a day"  Source: https://www.cpexecutive.com/post/the-projects-that-will-reshape-charlotte/
• The at-grade crossings with 3 minute frequency in one direction are not going to be possible at ANY at-grade intersection -- let alone Uptown. With trains going in both directions on a 3 minute interval you are going to have a minor revolt on the streets of Charlotte along the BL corridor.
• NCDOT and CLT DOT are already studying of tunneling/burying Brookshire Freeway (this is the NE section of I-277) from I-77 to US-74.
• The Silver Line from Matthews to the Airport has a small chance (tiny chance) of considering a tunnel through Uptown.
  • So, tunnels are being discussed in Charlotte planning circles for other projects...
• I have a separate map for an alignment along Tryon, but it starts further down in SouthEnd.
  • It would start right before Bland Station
  • imagine the tunnel going down right where Phat Burrito building stands
  • Tunnel up Camden to Tryon
  • following Tryon up through to "Levin land"
  • Cutting across "Levine land" to get back to the current Lynx alignment.
  • Drawback to Tryon alignment: Tryon is the MAIN st, there is a feel to it that has been built up cultivated for decades, I do not think introducing a Subway and digging up your Main St for  5 years is going to fly. College does not have that "history"/feel to it.
• I think both - College St and Tryon St - alignments should be studied at the same time.

[Matthew.Brendan]

4:30 northbound was MIA, next train was a car short. Packed in tight, finally feels like a real train

[Scribe]

11 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

4:30 northbound was MIA, next train was a car short. Packed in tight, finally feels like a real train

Induced demand -- take out a train during rush-hour, line up reporters, bloggers, etc along the next station and you have yourself an evening news segment!!

[Hunted]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Bad iPhone photo but here’s the view on the sugar creek bridge from the light rail 

The foreground is laughably hideous.

[ajfunder]

In regard to the tunnel subject,

 

I really don't foresee a north-south tunnel ever really being necessary unless multiple lines get routed on the current alignment, and even then I don't think it would be needed.

Denver street runs at grade the H, D, F, and L light rail lines on the center city loop just fine. The solution there was to just think of the light rail as another vehicle intersection and to schedule the trains accordingly.

 

In contrast, Charlotte's alignment is far superior with the multiple grade separations and protected crossings. It really doesn't get much better for light rail then the alignment through uptown.

 

Also, in regards to longer stations, I would say if needed, cut 7th and 9th and place a new one in the park. Would require closing 8th but I don't think that would be a huge loss.

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by ajfunder

[Desert Power]

2 hours ago, orulz said:

Seriously, Charlotte was unbelievably lucky to just have this right-of-way sitting around unused, only two blocks east of Tryon. It has only one grade crossing (MLK) between Carson and 5th, and the trains have full preepmtion with gates and flashers at all crossings, so trains should never have to stop for cars. 

They don't have to stop for cars, but they frequently stop for/wait on people.  I wish the trains would act like they had the ROW

[15895]

FYI. The extension in general is much more full along the line since opening week. From my casual observation, it’s due mostly to bus riders transferring on the light rail

[orulz]

3 hours ago, ajfunder said:

Also, in regards to longer stations, I would say if needed, cut 7th and 9th and place a new one in the park. Would require closing 8th but I don't think that would be a huge loss.

Good point - this is probably he best solution.

It both reduces the number of stations, spaces them out a bit better, and also closes a less important street.

[kermit]

3 hours ago, Hunted said:

The foreground is laughably hideous.

before BLE construction there was a pretty good ad-hoc skatepark down there.

[Hunted]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

before BLE construction there was a pretty good ad-hoc skatepark down there.

Charlotte’s lack of good skateparks disturbs me. That’d be a good spot for a proper one.

[grodney]

8 hours ago, Hunted said:

Charlotte’s lack of good skateparks disturbs me. 

I scrolled down to see the inevitable ".....said no one ever!"  but came up empty.

 

Obligatory pseudo-on-topic content:  Since the new schedule started, the guy driving the 6:28am northbound always leaves the doors open (a solid 8-10 minutes) when he switches ends at 485.  Hopefully we're nearly done with the freezing cold mornings, as this behavior is super-annoying and horrible customer service, not to mention a waste of energy.  I have complained to, errrr brought it to the attention of, CATS, but to no avail (and no surprise).

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by grodney

[kermit]

Station announcements have finally changed to say “train to UNC Charlotte Main will arrive in....”

maps are still super rare, none in the car I am in this morning. I would have thought maps would be important when you open a new route. Silly me.

33 cars in the UC deck this morning.

Edited March 29, 2018 by kermit

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Hunted said:

Charlotte’s lack of good skateparks disturbs me. That’d be a good spot for a proper one.

http://www.ososkatepark.com/home.html
What's wrong with Oso?

[Hunted]

23 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

http://www.ososkatepark.com/home.html
What's wrong with Oso?

Indoors and not free. 

Here are skateparks located in and around central business districts in Chicago (1), Houston (2), and Denver (3). They’re gorgeous, they liven up the area, they mitigate the risk of skateboarders damaging private property (ledges and rails at businesses). Skateparks are great. Charlotte lacks a premier park.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Hunted

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Hunted said:

Indoors and not free. 

Here are skateparks located in and around central business districts in Chicago (1), Houston (2), and Denver (3). They’re gorgeous, they liven up the area, they mitigate the risk of skateboarders damaging private property (ledges and rails at businesses). Skateparks are great. Charlotte lacks a premier park.

yea I agree. I have a skatepark in my neighborhood in Brooklyn that is better than Oso, and last year I did a Marketing Campaign for Nike in one I didn't even know about under the Manhattan bridge. I agree Charlotte needs a public one. Just don't know how or where.

[15895]

1 minute ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

yea I agree. I have a skatepark in my neighborhood in Brooklyn that is better than Oso, and last year I did a Marketing Campaign for Nike in one I didn't even know about under the Manhattan bridge. I agree Charlotte needs a public one. Just don't know how or where.

1st Ward park beside the fountain with the white crown over it. They keep making awesome additions to the park 

[KJHburg]

Houstons is the best!  I have been there really nice and a major benefactor donated a huge chunk of change for it.

In other news,  the new LYNX line might sway my nephew to go UNC Charlotte over NC State due ease of getting to future internships etc.  (the program he is looking at is basically the same)   I think this will really help the university as in the south only Atlanta or Miami can boast such options at universities.  

 

 

[Hunted]

10 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Houstons is the best!  I have been there really nice and a major benefactor donated a huge chunk of change for it.

In other news,  the new LYNX line might sway my nephew to go UNC Charlotte over NC State due ease of getting to future internships etc.  (the program he is looking at is basically the same)   I think this will really help the university as in the south only Atlanta or Miami can boast such options at universities.  

 

 

There are talks in Raleigh of connecting Duke, UNC, and NC State via light rail. Not sure of the likelihood of it ever happening, though.

[KJHburg]

^^^ Yes they are very along in plans to connect NC Central Univ. Duke and UNC Chapel Hill.  http://ourtransitfuture.com/projects/lrt/

Edited March 29, 2018 by KJHburg

[kermit]

^ Its probably gonna be a decade before DOLRT is running.

Actual commuter rail (meaning one or two trains per hour) connecting Raleigh, NCSU main campus, RTP, Durham and Duke East campus could arrive in 5 years if the stars align.

[JacksonH]

2 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

yea I agree. I have a skatepark in my neighborhood in Brooklyn that is better than Oso, and last year I did a Marketing Campaign for Nike in one I didn't even know about under the Manhattan bridge. I agree Charlotte needs a public one. Just don't know how or where.

There are literally at least a dozen public skateparks around San Diego, so it surprises me Charlotte doesn't even have one.