Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[Andyc545]

^Well there are two things. The last study that I saw indicated that CATS does have a cost effectiveness issue with its buses that means they are running a lot of empty buses.

Can you provide a link with this report so that others may be able to read this study? Surely some buses run fuller than others pending on its location and time of day, but I don't really get how that is CATs providing poor service versus just what the demand is.

I provided a general opinion above (^) stating the success that LYNX is running successfully based on facts that state that we are currently almost running to 2025 standards. This is success, we have been exceeding projections since day one and each month has generally increased from around 9500 daily to nearly 17000 daily. I ran on facts and numbers, that is unless if the O completely screwed up on these projections which they could have although I doubt since it should have came directly from CATs.

[monsoon]

Can you provide a link with this report so that others may be able to read this study? Surely some buses run fuller than others pending on its location and time of day, but I don't really get how that is CATs providing poor service versus just what the demand is. .....

It's posted in the 2030 topic along with a discussion on the matter.

[uptownliving]

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/A...+Us/PR81908.htm

Kieth Parker thinks that they could break their 2025 goal of 18,100 daily trips. There's also a comment that special events haven't been a big part of that number, which hasn't been my perception.

After reading that article I interpreted Keith's comments about special events to be in reference to July ridership. And looking back at the Calendar the largest special event in July was Charlotte Pride in Gateway Village. In previous months of course special events played a large roll in the ridership numbers and both Keith has acknowledged that publically. To me the fact that ridership increased in July w/o the help of any large special events downtown bodes well for future numbers when a lot of people get back from summer vacation and the special events kick back into gear.

[uptownliving]

How would they know about big event ridership? Not once when I have been on train for a large event have I ever seen a Cats official on the train. Fan Fest for example. The trains were squished full. Not Cats employees around. Sunday morning at 10am...you see someone counting.

CATS has installed Automatic Passenger Counters (APC) on most of the Light Rail Vehicles (maybe all of them by now). They also used this same technology on all of their buses for years now to generate the Ridership Numbers you see. The people you used to see on the trains manually counting people were meant to be temporary from the begining until the APC's were installed and brought online.

[uptownliving]

^Well there are two things. The last study that I saw indicated that CATS does have a cost effectiveness issue with its buses that means they are running a lot of empty buses. If you want to actually see some, I recommend you go and look at any of the village riders that circulate all day long with nobody on board. It isn't because people won't ride transit in these areas, because the x-press buses are always full, but because CATS runs such a poor service that almost nobody can depend on these lines. And if running empty buses wasn't bad enough, they just bought bigger ones. It's not limited to just these buses, but since you seem to judge your response based on your experience on a couple of bus rides then this would be the other side of that coin.

The point remains that I think CATS ought to be audited on the $100M that it receives from the taxpayers each year. Maybe for this amount of money they should be moving 25% more people. Nobody knows because there are never any quantifiable yardsticks placed against them.

Yeah and that study you mention was based on old ridership data...I believe it was from 2005. Our current conversation is about 2008 ridership ...it would be interesting to have that same study done with more recent ridership data.

Oh and BTW, CATS has an independent financial audit performed annually. I beleive KPMG is the one that does the audit. In any case it is all public record and anyone wanting to find out the details can request it from CATS.

And also this past year an Operational Audit has been performed and the results of that should be made public in the next month or so. It was one of the first things that Keith Parker requested when he became the new CEO of CATS. The intent being to take a "fresh look" at CATS operations and seeing where they could make improvements.

[InSouthPark]

CATS has installed Automatic Passenger Counters (APC) on most of the Light Rail Vehicles (maybe all of them by now). They also used this same technology on all of their buses for years now to generate the Ridership Numbers you see. The people you used to see on the trains manually counting people were meant to be temporary from the begining until the APC's were installed and brought online.

Well if that system is indeed online, does that APC handle mass amounts of people at one stop? After a Panthers/Bobcats/Checkers game, people all get on one station in mass herds. Can these systems correctly count people cramming in like that at one station?

I ride the train when going uptown for any big event (hate parking in a deck for an event) and I never ever get a seat when I get on at Sharon Rd West. The train is always standing room only (normally squished). For CMS graduation, I couldn't even get on one train as it was completely full as it left 485. Heck, when I take my daughter to a kiddie concert at imagion, after the show the trains are standing room only as it leaves 7th.

I just see the complete opposite when there is an event uptown...the trains are always packed.

[Miesian Corners]

Hopefully this new data will help make a strong case for the UC line.

[monsoon]

...

Oh and BTW, CATS has an independent financial audit performed annually. I beleive KPMG is the one that does the audit. In any case it is all public record and anyone wanting to find out the details can request it from CATS....

I didn't say anything about there being fraud at CATS which is what these kinds of audits check. I said there should be an audit of their results and a published methodology as to how they come up with their results. This is not the same thing. You said it yourself when you said the cost effectiveness study was done in 2005. Obviously KPMG isn't there to check that sort of thing.

The village riders are still running empty and it's 2008.

[New Name]

^ Could it be because residents of the suburbs don't want to embrace "urban life" which is to say: riding a city bus? The suburbs are about cars. Can suburban bus routes justify their own need?

[monsoon]

^ Could it be because residents of the suburbs don't want to embrace "urban life" which is to say: riding a city bus? The suburbs are about cars. Can suburban bus routes justify their own need?

Then the Express buses would not be packed each day. Maybe you should re-read what I posted. BTW, Charlotte is 98%+ suburban development.

[uptownliving]

The Express Buses and the Village Riders are completely different animals. To say that people crowd onto the Express buses that run downtown and therefore the Village Riders which stay local to North Meck should also be just as full is false logic in my opinion. The Village Riders have to compete with a short drive in your car....whereas the Express Buses offer a nice alternative to driving on 77 in rush hour traffic. I think the true audience for the Village Riders are those people who don't have cars and in North Meck that is an extreme minority....much more so than the rest of Mecklenburg. Also most of North Meck are greenfields or suburban type development which are not conducive to Local Mass Transit. Maybe in the future if North Meck develops in compact mixed use style then you will probably see more local transit.

The Village Riders in North Meck average 388 people on the weekdays. Beleive it or not they are not the worst performing routes in the system....however they are the worst performing Village Riders behind Beatties Ford and Eastland.

[uptownliving]

I didn't say anything about there being fraud at CATS which is what these kinds of audits check. I said there should be an audit of their results and a published methodology as to how they come up with their results. This is not the same thing. You said it yourself when you said the cost effectiveness study was done in 2005. Obviously KPMG isn't there to check that sort of thing.

The village riders are still running empty and it's 2008.

CATS publishes a yearly Ridership Performance Report that shows all the routes and ranks them on Cost Effectiveness. It is all public information for anyone that cares to find out. They have been doing this for at least 5 years. The Ridership numbers have to be generated using FTA accepted practices and I beleive the FTA does do some sample audits of the data to make sure it is accurate. Again it is all public information...all you have to do is contact CATS.

CATS uses the Ridership Performance Report to make adds/deletes to the Bus and Train routes on a monthly basis. The Automatic Passenger Counters have been a big help in giving them detailed information so they can evaluate not just which routes need to be modified, but at which time of day to make the changes.

[tozmervo]

The Village Riders in North Meck average 388 people on the weekdays. Beleive it or not they are not the worst performing routes in the system....however they are the worst performing Village Riders behind Beatties Ford and Eastland.

I've often wanted to see a breakdown of ridership per route (which, hopefully, such an audit would reveal). I've seen it stated in the paper that 7 [beatties Ford] and 9 [Central] are the most heavily traveled - and are, incidentally, the two routes the center city streetcar would replace. I've been surprised at how busy other routes are, like 58 [Pineville] and 42 [Carowinds], and both of those are solidly suburban. On the other hand, 59 [scaleybark/Marsh] and 36 [Midtown] seem to be struggling to find ridership - though to be fair both are very new, starting up when the Lynx did. While I occasionally use 36 to go to Midtown and have used 59 to get to Park Road Shopping Center, the primary function of both routes seems to be getting people to Lynx stations.

[uptownliving]

Well if that system is indeed online, does that APC handle mass amounts of people at one stop? After a Panthers/Bobcats/Checkers game, people all get on one station in mass herds. Can these systems correctly count people cramming in like that at one station?

I don't work for CATS or the manufacturer of the APC's but they are commonly used on transit systems worldwide and they all claim to be 90%+ accurate. You can search google and come across a few studies that vouch for the accuracy of APC's and tell you more about how they work.

[monsoon]

CATS publishes a yearly Ridership Performance Report that shows all the routes and ranks them on Cost Effectiveness.....

Indeed it's online, and the last available numbers are for 1Q08. As for the main bus system, the part of CATS that was responsible for 73% of all of the traffic, CATS carried less people on the Bus system in March 08 than they did in March 07. It's a stunning drop considering how much gasoline costs. I would say that speaks volumes as to the cost effectiveness given these buses cost a lot more to operate in 2008 vs 2007. It's why I think they need an audit and a review of where they are spending money vs real ridership. Either they need to increase the ridership even more, or some of their funding should be cut.

[tozmervo]

The only breakdown I've ever seen is from the MTC meeting summaries (like this pdf, on page 17). I can't locate one that breaks down routes beyond "Local and Express" - which that report shows an 8.8% increase year over year in March. Given that Lynx usurped some of their busiest bus routes, that doesn't seem terrible.

I'm not arguing that some of their routes shouldn't be reconsidered/justified, I just haven't seen the numbers that show a decrease in bus ridership from March 07 to March 08.

[monsoon]

It's here. Look at the one that says MB http://www.apta.com/research/stats/ridersh...nts/08q1rep.pdf

[New Name]

Then the Express buses would not be packed each day. Maybe you should re-read what I posted. BTW, Charlotte is 98%+ suburban development.

I had written this out to clarify that I was speaking only of the Village Rider (since that was the context in which we were speaking) but I thought it would be assumed. I was wrong. I exclude Express buses from my "city bus" generalization, and repost the same thing: The suburbs have little to no interest in using city buses or the lifestyle connected. Unfortunatley, this is one major flaw of having a city/county government. What is true for one, isn't always true for the other.

[monsoon]

....The suburbs have little to no interest in using city buses or the lifestyle connected. ....

What proof do you have of this beyond your opinion? Concord/Kannapolis started it's own, independent of CATS, bus service to carry people around to several shopping centers there and they are now carrying 34,000/month. They did this with minimal investment and certainly without the benefit of a dedicated transit tax to fund it.

this is one major flaw of having a city/county government. What is true for one, isn't always true for the other.

Actually the Transit Tax, which is how CATS is funded, was voted in by the entire county. If you check the last election on this, you will find all of the suburban areas voted in high numbers to continue the tax. There is no "mindset" that is different there. There is however an expectation that CATS will supply a service that is worthy and usable. Obviously the Village Riders don't do this.

[uptownliving]

Indeed it's online, and the last available numbers are for 1Q08. As for the main bus system, the part of CATS that was responsible for 73% of all of the traffic, CATS carried less people on the Bus system in March 08 than they did in March 07. It's a stunning drop considering how much gasoline costs. I would say that speaks volumes as to the cost effectiveness given these buses cost a lot more to operate in 2008 vs 2007. It's why I think they need an audit and a review of where they are spending money vs real ridership. Either they need to increase the ridership even more, or some of their funding should be cut.

Indeed its not online. You linked to the APTA report which doesn't really offer much data (and doesn't speak at all to Cost Effectiveness) . What I'm talking about is a line item report that details every route in the system. I think you would find it to be very interesting. Contact CATS and they can e-mail you a copy.

As for the APTA report you linked to...you need to add up the MB and MBP line together to get the total bus ridership. Also when the Lynx opened CATS expected there to be a ridership shift from the buses to the trains. Looking at the APTA data there was less than a 1% decline in bus ridership data comparing March 07 to March 08. But when you look at the entire system ridership is up by 22%. The "stunner" is that people like riding the train and the ridership is reflecting that.

[uptownliving]

What proof do you have of this beyond your opinion? Concord/Kannapolis started it's own, independent of CATS, bus service to carry people around to several shopping centers there and they are now carrying 34,000/month. They did this with minimal investment and certainly without the benefit of a dedicated transit tax to fund it. Actually the Transit Tax, which is how CATS is funded, was voted in by the entire county. If you check the last election on this, you will find all of the suburban areas voted in high numbers to continue the tax. There is no "mindset" that is different there. There is however an expectation that CATS will supply a service that is worthy and usable. Obviously the Village Riders don't do this.

So are you saying that CATS should just cancel the North Meck Village Rider? Should local mass transit in North Meck be abandoned?

CK Transit is a different animal. The demographics and land use are much different in Concord/Kannapolis. The average incomes are lower there, there are more people who are carless, and the system connects 2 downtowns that are job centers built on the grid system with one of the largest malls in the State in addition to all of the residential. The commercial development there dwarfs what is in North Meck along the Village Rider routes. I don't think you can blame CATS for the lack of jobs in North Meck along the Village Rider routes that would make the ridership higher.

Also I would add that there is a Transit Tax in Concord/Kannapolis that helps fund CK Transit...it is a local Vehicle Registration Fee.

Edited August 25, 2008 by uptownliving

[monsoon]

Indeed its not online. You linked to the APTA report which doesn't really offer much data (and doesn't speak at all to Cost Effectiveness) . ....

These are numbers reported by CATS. I am assuming when they report negative numbers then it really doesn't count?

What is being challenged is how they came up with the ridership and how is this money is being spent. Given that it costs more to run the buses this year, and this consumes most of the transit tax, yet the ridership is falling, I would say there are issues. Shifting people to more expensive transit like purchased bus service and the Lynx also speaks to this.

Lynx was not supposed to suck riders off the buses. If that is what is happening, then this again speaks volumes why they need an audit of their business results.

[uptownliving]

These are numbers reported by CATS. I am assuming when they report negative numbers then it really doesn't count?

What is being challenged is how they came up with the ridership and how is this money is being spent. Given that it costs more to run the buses this year, and this consumes most of the transit tax, yet the ridership is falling, I would say there are issues. Shifting people to more expensive transit like purchased bus service and the Lynx also speaks to this.

Lynx was not supposed to suck riders off the buses. If that is what is happening, then this again speaks volumes why they need an audit of their business results.

CATS reports "negative" numbers everyday. Something "bad" happens on CATS everday. It all counts. All I was saying is that the APTA report you linked to was not the Ridership Performance report I was talking about. I thought you would be interested in a detailed report that would show you just how bad the ridership is on some of the routes in the CATS system. I guess I was wrong...

If you want to challenge CATS ridership numbers then fine...but give us something solid to go on. Do you think there is something wrong with the Automatic Passenger Counters? Is there a history of faulty equipment from the manufacturer they bought them from? Do you think CATS is intentionally inflating the numbers?

Are you just challenging the LRT ridership numbers...or just the Bus numbers...or all of it?

LYNX was designed to replace a couple bus routes in the CATS system...so all along they were expecting riders to transer to the train.

One last thing "Purchased Bus" or MBP in the APTA report is a good thing...not a bad thing as you portray it. It is Bus Services that are Purchased from CATS....examples would be the Express Routes that leave Mecklenburg County, the Gold Rush, and the Wachovia CIC Express. It means less money coming out of the Transit Tax to fund the buses. In my book that is a good thing. I would love to hear why you think that is a bad thing.

[Charlotte_native]

LYNX was designed to replace a couple bus routes in the CATS system...so all along they were expecting riders to transer to the train.

LYNX was supposed to the the first of (hopefully) many lines that would become part of a greater city/county network. Not just as an alternative to a line or two where busses run. I don't see any correlation to loss of ridership on any bus unless it is a bus that runs on or near this route or somehow connects to it. How has LYNX taken riders for busses that run back and forth in completely different areas?

It was also hoped (as one of the fundamental rationales) that it would spur development along its route. It has and continues to do so. This is intended to give living, shopping, and working options along the route so if someone didn't want an auto-centril lifestyle in an auto-centric city, they could find it.

Expecting some dramatic change in Charlotte or our lives less than a year from the opening of one leg of a system that won't be in place for years to come...really? It is dramatic, though, to see how many actually ARE using it. Just jump way back on this thread to pre-November 2007 and see how many people assumed, hoped, claimed, or otherwise thought that the CATS numbers were way out of whack and actual ridership would be far lower. For all the other opinions on here, that one has now become fact and the numbers were wrong, but the other direction.

Do you think CATS is intentionally inflating the numbers?

If CATS is inflating the numbers, they are doing an amazing job of making the trains 'look' full as well. I cross Park Avenue and East/West Blvd frequently during the day and often in the evening and the trains going by are always full. I read on here and in media reports that the trains are always full. I see people filling them to come to uptown events. I don't think CATS needs to inflate their numbers.

[monsoon]

......

Are you just challenging the LRT ridership numbers...or just the Bus numbers...or all of it? ....

I think I stated what I was challenging. Do I need to restate it again? Look for results vs money spent.