Jump to content

Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line


dubone

Recommended Posts

Does anyone know what the landscaping is supposed to be like at the stations? Most of the grounded platforms have gravel-filled holes where I suppose trees will eventually go, and that would dramatically change the character of those stations. I'm also curious to see what is done along South Blvd at Scaleybark station. I happen to love the discs, but I'm sure a little greenery will help 'soften' them for most people.

I don't know of any specific dates, but I do know that the City's Landscape Management Dept. only plants trees a few times a year (so the trees won't die). You'll see a ton of new trees planted around the city when its planting time.

About half of the Lynx Cars and all of the CATS buses are equiped with automatic passenger counters that use infrared technology. If I remember correctly they plan to have all of the Lynx cars equiped with the automatic counters in the next month or so. They are using the surveyors for the cars that don't have the automatic counters. The surverors are also used to check the numbers against what the automatic counters are coming up with for the cars that have them installed.

I don't think a 3rd Party is doing the ridership numbers...but I'm not sure.

CATS has supposedly been taking counts manually to double check the automated counts. I'm inclined to believe their facts until I see more solid proof of the opposite

Link to comment
Share on other sites


^ I suspect that it's more than 4%... maybe not the 20 I mentioned before but probably quite high given the circumstances (broken machines, little enforcement, new concept). As monsoon said, whatever the number is it is probably not good and the situation needs to be remedied before it gets too far out of hand.

The thing is, most riders would probably pay the fee and ride IF it were convenient and enforcement was likely. What we are talking about is not missing riders but a steady stream of income that is missing from the system.

Yeah I agree...probably closer to 8% that are not paying. I forget the exact number but I think they were planning on about 3% of people not paying. But yes the bottom line is they need to get the machines working properly and then bring on the enforcement bonanza.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, in reading that article they come up with 7100 ridership. That is less than the 8723 that I allowed for above.

The person writing the Meck Deck blog that came up with that 7100 number thought that the only way you can legally ride the Lynx was with a ticket from the machines. We already established that is very far from the truth....which is typical of the Meck Deck blog. They were attempting to blow a hole in CATS ridership numbers...but all they did was demonstrate that they don't know much about how the tickets and fares work on Lynx.

I don't think you ever said that the ticket machines were selling 8723 tickets per day. In fact I don't think anyone has said that.

Once the get the ticket machines working...then they can ramp up enforcement and we will have to see how the numbers play out. I don't doubt the ridership numbers that CATS is putting out...but obviously not everyone is paying their way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Found an interesting video of the same model ticket machines Lynx has in action. This is from the Houston Metro System. Watching the video I was surprised to see how quick the machine reacted after the button was pushed. While the ticket machine was processing the transaction the scroll at the bottom of the screen didnt stagger and freeze. Looks like Houston is having a much different experience with their 2 year old machines than we are with our brand new ones.

This video also gives a glimpse into the future since Houston is making the switch over to a smart card fare system...something CATS should be doing in the next 5 years.

TVM Video

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Had my first rides on the South Line yesterday. I was in Charlotte for a meeting. Parked at the Scaleybark Park and Ride, which had about 75 cars in it. Went to the TVM on the inbound side, as I was riding to 3rd Street. I wanted to buy a day pass, so I pushed that button, then changed the default quantity from 0 to 1 using the plus button (why should the default be set at 0?? No one is buying zero of anything. It would speed things up to set the default at 1, since I suspect most people are buying one of something). I then tried to purchase, couldn't get my money to go in, coin slot was shut. The person behind me in line told me to press "BUY", miraculously the coin slot opened and the bill feeder began working. This is NOT intuitive. I assumed I would press "BUY" only after I had put in my money. Once I fed in three dollar coins and a dollar bill, the ticket printing took four seconds (I timed it).

The single adult express button, which I tried later (yes, I know with my daily pass I did not need another pass), immediately opens the coin slot. The time elapsed from pressing the express buy, putting in a dollar bill and two quarters and having the ticket print was less than 20 seconds.

I noticed at Third Street that one of the TVMs was down.

The rides themselves -- the Scaleybark to 3rd Street was at around 10:30 am. The train had 65 passengers when I got on. There was one bicycle. A wheelchair patron got on at one of the inbound stations, he told everyone outloud he was pleased with the ease in boarding.

After my meeting, I caught a train at around 11:40 and went from 3rd Street to Reids, picked up a sandwich, then a friend picked me up in his car for a lunch meeting. The train had about 50 people on it when it departed 3rd Street.

I was dropped off at East/West after lunch, then did some sightseeing on the train. Took it to 485, there were about 75 people on the train when we departed East West. Again there was a bicycle on board. I took the next train back to Scaleybark, there were about 15 people who had boarded at 485 (this was about 2:20 pm.) By the time I departed at Scaleybark, the train had about 40 passengers.

The ticket printing time issue reported by many was NOT a problem for me, in fact, I was impressed with how FAST the tickets printed. The machine was difficult for a first time user, but once figured out was quite easy and fast. They clearly need more machines, at peak hour mixing in even a few new users will really slow things down.

Oh, and when I had trouble understaning that I needed to press "buy", the person behind me in line told me what to do. I passed things along by instructing two new patrons at Scaleybark at the end of my journey how to use the machines. They were also confused.

All trains were on time, neat, and clean. All were single units. A fare inspector checked my daily pass two of my four trips.

Edited by staffer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

.....

I don't think you ever said that the ticket machines were selling 8723 tickets per day. In fact I don't think anyone has said that.

I said that I accounted for 8723 riders given people's explanations above about no-pays, transfers and so forth and the cost of a ticket divided into their collections. The John Locke article you quoted only allows for 7100 riders I am being more generous due to the fact that I am adding in all of our readers reasons for the discrepancy. Despite that however we are still close to 3300 riders short.

The point of this however is the ridership numbers that CATS are stating have a huge un-explained component that nobody has addressed given they have said they are only collecting $5100/day in fares. (and I assume that includes the ticket booth sales) I am not saying they are wrong, but either there are a hell of a lot of people riding the train for free, or someone is making a big mistake in how they are tallying up the totals that are riding. As I mentioned above, the perception the trains are crowded is coming from the fact that CATS is not running the train system at full capacity at all times. One only has to look at the off-line trains in the rail yard to see that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Found an interesting video of the same model ticket machines Lynx has in action. This is from the Houston Metro System. Watching the video I was surprised to see how quick the machine reacted after the button was pushed. While the ticket machine was processing the transaction the scroll at the bottom of the screen didnt stagger and freeze. Looks like Houston is having a much different experience with their 2 year old machines than we are with our brand new ones.

This video also gives a glimpse into the future since Houston is making the switch over to a smart card fare system...something CATS should be doing in the next 5 years.

TVM Video

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point of this however is the ridership numbers that CATS are stating have a huge un-explained component that nobody has addressed given they have said they are only collecting $5100/day in fares. (and I assume that includes the ticket booth sales)

Do you have a source for that $5,100 number? The Charlotte Observer, John Locke Foundation and CATS are all reporting $7,135 per day just from the Ticket Vending Machines at the LYNX stations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why are we sitting here arguing over whether it's 12,000 or 7,000 or 5,000. It's obvious from everyone's first hand experience that Lynx has been a booming success and that quite often the trains are at standing room capacity and even when they are not, there are still quite a few people onboard. Just saying that without putting a number to it exceeds everyones expectations and proves that so far it is a success. Trying to delve deep into the numbers after not even 2 months and analyzing what percentage of people transferred from a bus or aren't paying or used their monthly pass is pointless when we know that there are untold problems mainly dealing with broken ticket machines is pointless. Let CATS and their vendors work the kinks out and figure out what to do about the fares and then analyze it if you want instead of nitpicking and trying to find a reason to say it's a failure when it obviously is not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why are we sitting here arguing over whether it's 12,000 or 7,000 or 5,000. It's obvious from everyone's first hand experience that Lynx has been a booming success and that quite often the trains are at standing room capacity and even when they are not, there are still quite a few people onboard. Just saying that without putting a number to it exceeds everyones expectations and proves that so far it is a success. Trying to delve deep into the numbers after not even 2 months and analyzing what percentage of people transferred from a bus or aren't paying or used their monthly pass is pointless when we know that there are untold problems mainly dealing with broken ticket machines is pointless. Let CATS and their vendors work the kinks out and figure out what to do about the fares and then analyze it if you want instead of nitpicking and trying to find a reason to say it's a failure when it obviously is not.

Great post. The answer is that there are plenty of people, especially the JLF, who want to portray the massive success of the Lynx as a failure, and that they will continue to work at tarring and feathering CATS to achieve that goal. The JLF folks set up the federal ridership projections as the barometer of success, and now that it's obvious the projections were way too low, (33% error) the only thing the JLF can do is to assert that CATS can't count. JLF doesn't really care if CATS is or isn't counting the money correctly, they just want to destroy the organization's credibility.

It's pretty obvious that the TVMs have many problems, and that they need to be fixed. That being the case, it's not hard to imagine that sorting out fare capture and enforcement on the line is going to be suboptimal until the machines are fixed.

None of this has any bearing on ridership, which is clearly well over projections, except for the JLF crowd trying to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt in the city's best public investment in years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why are we sitting here arguing over whether it's 12,000 or 7,000 or 5,000. It's obvious from everyone's first hand experience that Lynx has been a booming success and that quite often the trains are at standing room capacity and even when they are not, there are still quite a few people onboard. ....
This was explained above by the fact that CATS isn't running enough trains to handle the loads. It gives the perception of high ridership when if they were to put a few more trains on the tracks, there would be room to sit down. This is probably good on their part because it reduces operational costs because you would want to cram as many people as you can on a train and run fewer trains. (less wear & tear, less labor charges)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was explained above by the fact that CATS isn't running enough trains to handle the loads. It gives the perception of high ridership when if they were to put a few more trains on the tracks, there would be room to sit down. This is probably good on their part because it reduces operational costs because you would want to cram as many people as you can on a train and run fewer trains. (less wear & tear, less labor charges)

"Not running enough trains"? Has CATS deferred from their initial plan to run the trains @ 7.5 minute intervals during peak hours and 20 minutes during off peak hours for a projected 9,600 passengers per day? It the trains tend to be over capacity at times, then perception becomes reality (higher than expected ridership). I'm sure when their ridership models demand increased volume, they'll adjust their schedule accordingly (per operational cost as you stated)

I'll get my first opportunity to ride in a couple of weeks (BTW, do you have to pay for a 3-year old?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is CATS policy to run the Lynx at 320% of Seated Capacity (217 riders per train)

Straight from their policy:

CATS will not exceed its standard load factors for more than twenty (20) minutes per trip on a

given route. If a service is consistently above the seated capacity, then CATS will make

adjustments, not limited to adding additional service at the next scheduled service change. If

the standing load compromises safety in any way, CATS will implement additional service to meet

the demand.

The objective of load standards is to balance passenger comfort and safety with operating cost.

This policy was adopted at a public meeting of the MTC. I don't think there is a conspiracy by CATS to make their ridership seem larger than it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll get my first opportunity to ride in a couple of weeks (BTW, do you have to pay for a 3-year old?)

On their website it says people under 46'' are free. Funny they based it off of height rather than age, however I do recall hearing somewhere that there is a certain age that entitles you to ride for free.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That would seem to confirm the perception of crowded trains. Imagine 320% capacity on a plane for example.

You can't do 320% capacity on a plane because on a plane, you can't take off/land safely unless everyone is seated. The light rail is designed to have the majority of passengers as standees, not seated.

The point is that 320% seated capacity is CATS definition of 100% TRAIN capacity. When the numbers exceed this on a regular basis, such as special events, it's time to run more trains or run longer trains.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I mentioned above, the perception the trains are crowded is coming from the fact that CATS is not running the train system at full capacity at all times. One only has to look at the off-line trains in the rail yard to see that.

It appears to me that the line is being run to full capacity at rush hours. Most of the equipment at rush hour seems to be two train sets. They are running at 7.5 minute intervals, which is close to the minimum headway possible based on the current amount of equipment and the need to keep grade crossings open.

The reason you see rail cars in the rail yard is that when the line switches to 15 minute headways at mid day (with just a single train) then 50%+ of the rolling stock is sidelined. Midday yesterday, they were running 50 to 75 passengers on the train. Most seats were taken, no standees. Adding a second car to the train, or running it every 7.5 minutes would NOT have increased ridership, just expenses. So yes, the line is not being run at "full capacity" all the time. There is no need to run a double train on a weekday midday to carry 50-75 people. If they had longer station platforms and three train sets, and unlimited rolling stock, they could probably carry more rush hour passengers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no need to run a double train on a weekday midday to carry 50-75 people. If they had longer station platforms and three train sets, and unlimited rolling stock, they could probably carry more rush hour passengers.

And if they did do that you'd hear JLF barking that CATS is wasting money running more cars than necessary. Regardless of what CATS does they will be heavily scrutinized. It is unfortunate that JLF and other similar groups won't just admit that so far the line has been a success and BE HAPPY that the money spend doesn't appear to have been wasted as they so readily predicted.

People ARE riding the train -- even with major problems with the ticket machines -- it really can be pretty simple at this point to say that the initial couple months of the line have been a big success with a few curve balls that we all could have predicted with any new system. I actually find it interesting to read the anti-rail stuff now as they scrable to find any fault possible with this line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it were up to me, I'd move the ticket machines to the entrance of the station, put up turnstiles that only admit you once you have a ticket, and quit checking riders. The system as it is set up now is primed for failure to collect fares. You can hop on one station and get right off again before someone checks your ticket. Also, if they are going to have someone on-board checking tickets, you need to be able to purchase fares from them. That's how the LIR works in NY. If you don't have a ticket, you tell the conductor where you're going and he prints you out one once you've paid. The $50 ticket idea is absurd. I'm not sure how you enforce it, and it will be spotty enforcement at best.

I think that several things seem obvious now that Lynx has been up and running for awhile: 1, it's way more popular than people thought it would be. I admit I thought that other than rush hour it would be empty. I was wrong. 2, the ticketing sucks. They are not generating all the revenue they should be, and unless they change the system they won't.

I think we'll see extra cars added to the trains (not more trains running, they're running about as quick as they can now without causing problems with too many trains on the tracks) and I don't think we'll see huge changes to the ticket machines. Why? Because bureaucrats can't admit they were wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Found an interesting video of the same model ticket machines Lynx has in action. This is from the Houston Metro System. Watching the video I was surprised to see how quick the machine reacted after the button was pushed. While the ticket machine was processing the transaction the scroll at the bottom of the screen didnt stagger and freeze. Looks like Houston is having a much different experience with their 2 year old machines than we are with our brand new ones.......

This is a photo of one of the Houston machines from that website. It certainly doesn't look like the same model as what was placed here. I take note they are doing one of my suggestions. Put a big sign right above the machine that says what is going on. The machine also seems to be laid out much more logically than the confused mess on our TVMs.

TVMBULLETS.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it were up to me, I'd move the ticket machines to the entrance of the station, put up turnstiles that only admit you once you have a ticket, and quit checking riders. The system as it is set up now is primed for failure to collect fares. You can hop on one station and get right off again before someone checks your ticket. Also, if they are going to have someone on-board checking tickets, you need to be able to purchase fares from them. That's how the LIR works in NY. If you don't have a ticket, you tell the conductor where you're going and he prints you out one once you've paid. The $50 ticket idea is absurd. I'm not sure how you enforce it, and it will be spotty enforcement at best.

I think that several things seem obvious now that Lynx has been up and running for awhile: 1, it's way more popular than people thought it would be. I admit I thought that other than rush hour it would be empty. I was wrong. 2, the ticketing sucks. They are not generating all the revenue they should be, and unless they change the system they won't.

I think we'll see extra cars added to the trains (not more trains running, they're running about as quick as they can now without causing problems with too many trains on the tracks) and I don't think we'll see huge changes to the ticket machines. Why? Because bureaucrats can't admit they were wrong.

Installing and maintaining turnstiles, and building ground-level stations such that there is a "paid area" and an "unpaid area" is a HUGE expense, and no doubt CATS ran the numbers to determine that the cost of said turnstiles and the increase in complexity of each station was NOT worth the potential loss of fare revenue.

The CATS system is called a "proof of payment" system and it is used in the vast majority of LRT systems worldwide. As a side note, some lines/stations in Los Angeles that were originally constructed like CATS with no turnstiles are having turnstiles added, because ridership is high enough to justify the cost.

A system where a conductor sells you a ticket works best on a commuter railroad like the LIRR where (1) there is a conductor, and (2) the distance between stations and the average trip distance is long, giving the conductor sufficient time to walk the entire train and ticket/check each passenger.

I have also seen LRT/streetcar systems that operate like a bus, where your fare is paid when you board the train itself (there is a conductor posted at each entrance if there is more than one). In Japan, some LRT systems have a distance-based fare, where you either swipe your stored-value card both when you enter and exit the train, or take a ticket that says where you boarded and pay the appropriate fare in cash when you get off. But these systems have longer dwell times at stations as each passenger must be checked individually as they board, alight, or both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Below is a picture of a ticket machine in Dallas Texas, They also have a date and time stap for peole who pre bought tickets for the train. All a rider has to do is stick the ticket and it stamps the ticket. I recently visited my mother in Dallas Tx over Christmas. I had a fun experiance riding the light rail around Dallas. Just as here in Charlotte there are ticket checkers that check tickets but I never saw one. I saw everyone purchace a ticket or use a transfer from the bus. All day tickets in the Dallas area cost 3 dollars a day. If you want to ride the Heavy rail train to fortworth you pay an extra dollar. 4.00 to ride to Fort Worth is a great deal. Perhaps Cats could impliment a date time stamp machine in which prepurshased tickets could be marked.

%7Boption%7D2181120316_5d931e9ac9.jpg?v=0%7Boption%7D

PS I have some pictures of the light rail system in Dallas that I would be happy to post if people would like to see it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^Feel free to post your photos elsewhere on this site where it would be more on subject.

---------------

From what I have been able to determine, ACS in Dallas does not design or manufacture ticket machines. Instead they are more of a ticket machine consultant that acquires machines from various manufacturers based on specs provided by the transit agencies. ACS is then the servicing organization. This would explain why their machines differ dramatically in various cities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TVMBULLETS.gif

This is the old TVM for Houston MetroRail that has been replaced with new TVM's from ACS that are the same model that is used for the Lynx.

I agree that the machine pictured above certainly looks better than the machines we have.

Interesting enough Houston had problems with their original TVM's from Cubic Transportation. They ended up replacing the Cubic ones with ACS machines. Houston is still in court fighting over the Cubic machines they assert didn't perform up to the contractual standards (sound familiar). If our ACS machines don't perform well it is quite possible we could do the opposite of Houston and get Cubic machines and take ACS to court.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.