Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[asthasr]

16 minutes ago, jthomas said:

You had lunch with your wife for the first time in years?

Honestly, it was the first time I've gone to meet her for lunch while she was working outside the house in years. She recently changed jobs and ended up "hybrid," and I have a couple of days off -- a rare opportunity!

19 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

get ye the CATS Pass app and never touch a kiosk again. 

Good point, I'll definitely use it next time I'm going uptown.

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, asthasr said:

Honestly, it was the first time I've gone to meet her for lunch while she was working outside the house in years. She recently changed jobs and ended up "hybrid," and I have a couple of days off -- a rare opportunity!

Good point, I'll definitely use it next time I'm going uptown.

App also tells you when next train is arriving.  I use app for the gold line and it's been a game-changer.  Using it all the time now.  

[kermit]

Time for more frequencies!

[15895]

These frequencies and overcrowding could lead to lower ridership among those who chose to come back and find it to not be most convenient to their needs. Blue Line ridership below: 

October 22 Ridership: 14,972 (Weekday) September 22 Ridership: 15,690 (weekday) 

I believe 

Is the frequency cut due to staff shortage? I forget why the Lynx has lower frequencies. We’ll have to wait for November to see if there is a decline in ridership or not (though it could be distorted by the holidays but still. I think we could extrapolate based on other transit agencies) 

Edited November 1, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[KJHburg]

what is the possibility of longer trains like they use in Dallas with DART or at least one more car?  are our stations set up for that?

 

[JRCLT]

what is the possibility of longer trains like they use in Dallas with DART or at least one more car?  are our stations set up for that?
 
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Not all stations are equipped to handle 3 cars in the southern portion and CATS has been slow to upgraded the then VEd stations when it was first built. Likely due to budgeting and other issues.

[15895]

25 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

what is the possibility of longer trains like they use in Dallas with DART or at least one more car?  are our stations set up for that?

 

Not all of the stations are set up for long trainsets. And until they all are, it’s doubtful they’d run longer trainsets until all stations can handle longer trainsets. 
 

I do believe Charlotte applied for Grants back under Obama’s term for $ to expand some stations but I can’t remember any actually being extended. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[LKN704]

25 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

what is the possibility of longer trains like they use in Dallas with DART or at least one more car?  are our stations set up for that?

3-Car train platforms were supposed to be part of the original Blue Line IIRC, but were eventually cut out for budgetary concerns. IIRC, all BLE stations can handle 3-car trains, and CATS received a TIGER grant sometime in the 2010s to lengthen some of the original platforms, but I am not sure what happened with that project. 

[kermit]

17 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I do believe Charlotte applied for Grants back under Obama’s term for $ to expand some stations but I can’t remember any actually being extended. 

Yes, CATS received a Capacity Enhancement Grant a long while back (10 years ago?). The grant paid for electrical upgrades (the biggest part of the project) as well as platform expansions at 7th st, Stonewall, Woodlawn and 485 (IIRC). Woodlawn was added because the project went well and was under budget. Other than these platforms the original Blue Line platforms are not big enough for 3 car trains. And no, you can't run three car trains and just not open the doors on the third car at some stations,  nor can you run express trains of 3 cars between Stonewall and 485 (unless you want to stop all other service in that direction).

Even if all the platforms were ready, CATS would still need quite a few additional new vehicles if they were going to run three car trains all day. As I have said many times, adding length, but not frequency just maintains crappy (low frequency) service which continues to depress ridership. The best strategy for attract new riders and keep existing riders happy would be for CATS to immediately cut all of the two car trains in half and double frequency. Of course this will require drivers that CATS claims they don't have, but if they want to offer useful transit service, that is the way.

Capacity Enhancement Grants (CEG)  from the FTA are still a thing I believe (Chicago has used them extensively to rebuild most of CTA). CATS would probably have no problem getting the money necessary for this expansion in a second grant. Unfortunately John Lewis decided to pull the plug on the CEG grant application that would have paid for the remaining platforms several years ago, he justified it by saying the platform extensions would get done as part of the  (now mythical) big bang expansion. While I think Lewis’ move was idiotic,   I'll reiterate, three car trains do very little to make transit any more accessible or appealing. Longer trains are a very expensive improvement that only makes sense on game days. When proper frequencies are being run three car trains would be a wasted for 95% of their running time. Additional frequency is the only way to attract new riders.

Edited November 2, 2022 by kermit

[asthasr]

When I rode, there were at least a half-dozen trains sitting idle at the railyard. Since I missed my train by seconds, twice, I spent a total of around 40 minutes just... waiting. During off-hours (very late evening, very early morning), that's defensible, but during the day this is enough to seriously hurt ridership. If I could rely on Singapore-like frequencies (7-8 minutes at most times, 3-4 minutes during peak hours), it wouldn't even be a consideration; I could take a two hour lunch and go uptown, relying on my ability to catch the train within a few minutes to make the total travel time predictable. As it stands, that can't happen. I'm sure there are a lot of other people who don't use the train for similar reasons.

[kermit]

2 hours ago, asthasr said:

When I rode, there were at least a half-dozen trains sitting idle at the railyard. Since I missed my train by seconds, twice, I spent a total of around 40 minutes just... waiting. During off-hours (very late evening, very early morning), that's defensible, but during the day this is enough to seriously hurt ridership. If I could rely on Singapore-like frequencies (7-8 minutes at most times, 3-4 minutes during peak hours), it wouldn't even be a consideration; I could take a two hour lunch and go uptown, relying on my ability to catch the train within a few minutes to make the total travel time predictable. As it stands, that can't happen. I'm sure there are a lot of other people who don't use the train for similar reasons.

CATS has enough equipment to run two car trains on the Blue Line every 7 minutes (they did this briefly at peak hours pre-pandemic). They are only missing drivers (and it appears that situation has not improved since the frequency cuts in August).  CATS told the FTA in their grant application for the BLE that they had sufficient equipment to run two car trains every 5 minutes, but the BLE was never able to reach its design speed due to moron drivers and the crossing gates on N. Tryon (and lousy design and operating policy that allowed drivers to slow down trains).

Lets not kid ourselves, at 20 minute headways the Blue Line operates more like commuter rail than transit. You gotta plan you day around the train schedule, that makes it much less useful to riders than a ‘just show up’ frequency level. There are many days that I wish I could stop on my way home at 36th st or 7th street for a sandwich or beer or whatever, but the thought of having to wait to reboard one of the three trains per hour always stops me.

Edited November 2, 2022 by kermit

[michaelef]

This elevator has been out for at least a month if not longer now. How long does it take to fix an elevator? I think it's sad that someone who needs it has to go to another station and wait.

[kayman]

59 minutes ago, kermit said:

CATS has enough equipment to run two car trains on the Blue Line every 7 minutes (they did this briefly at peak pre-pandemic). They are only missing drivers (and it appears that situation has not improved since the frequency cuts in August).  CATS told the FTA in their grant application for the BLE that they had sufficient equipment to run two car trains every 5 minutes, but the BLE was never able to reach its design speed due to moron drivers and the crossing gates on N. Tryon (and lousy design and operating policy that allowed drivers to slow down trains).

Lets not kid ourselves, at 20 minute headways the Blue Line operates more like commuter rail than transit. You gotta plan you day around the train schedule, that makes it much less useful to riders than a ‘just show up’ frequency level. There are many days that I wish I could stop on my way home at 36th st or 7th street for a sandwich or beer or whatever, but the thought of having to wait to reboard one of the three trains per hour always stops me.

In other words, if CATS had all grade-seperated interactions along the LYNX Blue Line with all roadways then the trains would move at the optimum speed for higher frequencies. 

Another reason why I repeatedly say the any regional rail component, specially the LYNX Silver Line, in this region that's not streetcar should be totally grade-seperated from all roadway interactions. 

[kermit]

9 minutes ago, kayman said:

In other words, if CATS had all grade-seperated interactions along the LYNX Blue Line with all roadways then the trains would move at the optimum speed for higher frequencies. 

Well, yes, but there is a less drastic design change possible that would speed the line up.

currently trains must come to a full stop at any grade crossing where a car in a left turn lane (going across the tracks) is stopped in front of (e.g. the wrong side of) a gate. This happens ALOT (generally twice per BLE trip). If CATS trashed the gates which stop left turners (these gates are perpendicular to the tracks and only block the left turn lane) and replaced them with double gates which run parallel to the tracks (like everywhere else on the line) the cars on the wrong side of the gates problem would be solved and the BLE could be operated closer to design speed. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by kermit

[dylansukkert]

17 hours ago, kermit said:

Time for more frequencies!

Trains were even worse this morning. Saw a few people that couldn’t get on and had to wait for the next train… 20 minutes! 

[kermit]

Just now, dylansukkert said:

Trains were even worse this morning. Saw a few people that couldn’t get on and had to wait for the next train… 20 minutes! 

Yup, I saw that on Tuesday morning as well.

[kayman]

53 minutes ago, kermit said:

Well, yes, but there is a less drastic design change possible that would speed the line up.

currently trains must come to a full stop at any grade crossing where a car in a left turn lane (going across the tracks) is stopped in front of (e.g. the wrong side of) a gate. This happens ALOT (generally twice per BLE trip). If CATS trashed the gates which stop left turners (these gates are perpendicular to the tracks and only block the left turn lane) and replaced them with double gates which run parallel to the tracks (like everywhere else on the line) the cars on the wrong side of the gates problem would be solved and the BLE could be operated closer to design speed. 

Those gate arms are likely maintained by both CDOT & funded by NCDOT due to North Tryon being a state-maintained roadway.  Getting CATS, CDOT, and NCDOT to fix that design error that would be easier said than done.  NCDOT is being sabotaged by the NCGA (we all know the GOP-controls it) from what I've been told by several NCDOT employees. 

It'll likely easier for CATS to just design an entire grade separation between the rail tracks and roadways on any future light rail expansions to prevent such crazy design errors.

The interaction between South Boulevard and the LYNX Blue Line around the Scaleybark transit station comes to mind as an extremely cheap and poorly designed interaction of roadways and rail transit.  That stretch should have been grade separated either via cut and cover or viaduct to enhance safety and weird collisions.

I've eyewitnessed several vehicles try to evade the rail gate arms to attempting to beat the train along the areas where there are the diagonal roadway crossovers.  Meanwhile, they damn near crash into the rear of other vehicles or run over pedestrians or cyclists on the Rail Trail. 

 

[kermit]

22 hours ago, kayman said:

Those gate arms are likely maintained by both CDOT & funded by NCDOT due to North Tryon being a state-maintained roadway.  Getting CATS, CDOT, and NCDOT to fix that design error that would be easier said than done.  NCDOT is being sabotaged by the NCGA (we all know the GOP-controls it) from what I've been told by several NCDOT employees. 

Yea, I am sure its complicated, but that is no excuse for not getting it fixed. It is an easily fixable design flaw that would use off the shelf parts that are relatively inexpensive. So I am not giving any agency a pass and I will beotch about this stupidity until the day I die (or it gets fixed) whichever comes first. 

22 hours ago, kayman said:

The interaction between South Boulevard and the LYNX Blue Line around the Scaleybark transit station comes to mind as an extremely cheap and poorly designed interaction of roadways and rail transit.  That stretch should have been grade separated either via cut and cover or viaduct to enhance safety and weird collisions.

Yea, I remember being flummoxed by this design choice when it was made. The line should have (and could have) followed the old RR ROW on the west side of South blvd. CATS decided that the Blue Line should run down the middle of the street here (and here only) simply  to ‘enable’ development on both sides of South blvd. I don’t believe a viaduct here was ever discussed and the original Blue Line design was superduper value engineered once global commodity price increase driven budget overruns were encountered (see the discussion of three car platforms above.) Bad decisions all around.

Edited November 3, 2022 by kermit

[15895]

1 hour ago, kayman said:

In other words, if CATS had all grade-separated interactions along the LYNX Blue Line with all roadways then the trains would move at the optimum speed for higher frequencies. 

Another reason why I repeatedly say the any regional rail component, specially the LYNX Silver Line, in this region that's not streetcar should be totally grade-seperated from all roadway interactions. 

At that point, it basically is heavy rail. Charlotte should have heavy rail - Charlotte merits heavy rail - Heavy Rail in Charlotte would be successful - Charlotte will not get heavy rail - Heavy Rail likely wont even be discussed. To think back in the day Government would bankroll heavy rail systems. Now cities struggle to build 7 mile LRT lines over decades outside of a couple deep blue areas.

Infrastructure is expensive. There's plenty of money to build good infrastructure. And heavy rail would move more people than lane additions at probably a cheaper cost. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[kayman]

2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

At that point, it basically is heavy rail. Charlotte should have heavy rail - Charlotte merits heavy rail - Heavy Rail in Charlotte would be successful - Charlotte will not get heavy rail - Heavy Rail likely wont even be discussed. To think back in the day Government would bankroll heavy rail systems. Now cities struggle to build 7 mile LRT lines over decades outside of a couple deep blue areas.

Infrastructure is expensive. There's plenty of money to build good infrastructure. And heavy rail would move more people than lane additions at probably a cheaper cost. 

You are correct. I've long said that Charlotte should have heavy rail transit (HRT).  In my official professional capacity, I've conducted meetings with key CATS staffers about this topic. They had only balked due to costs but they are City of Charlotte employees are  why... 

Realistically, Charlotte could support a hybridized version like the HART in Honolulu, which is categorized medium capacity rail transit also known as "light rapid/metro" transit. Also the SEPTA Purple Line in Greater Philadelphia is an older US-version of light rapid transit. Vancouver's SkyTrain & the Scarborough Line of the Toronto Subway system are  modern Canadian versions of this transit mode. 

I've expressed this with them at CATS this mode is an option to seriously consider for the LYNX Silver Line in Charlotte. The density minimums are there in Uptown,  SouthEnd, and several adjacent neighborhoods for light rapid transit in the region. If Charlotte is going to be a major transportation hub that it's aiming towards advancement of the goal. Then light rapid/metro transit along with existing LRT, streetcar, BRT, commuter rail, and regional express buses modes should seriously be considered.

However, a major reform of the local and regional government leadership structure from a strong mayor-council for the City of Charlotte, a bi-state  transportation and regional planning council like the East-West Gateway Council of Governments (one regional MPO) & a regional transit authority like the Bi-State Development (Metro Transit/MetroLink) in Greater St. Louis or KCATA in Kansas City would have to be created here for that even get discussed and receive any serious traction. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by kayman

[J-Rob]

4 minutes ago, kayman said:

However, a major reform of the local and regional government leadership structure from a strong mayor-council for the City of Charlotte, a bi-state  transportation and regional planning council like the East-West Gateway Council of Governments (one regional MPO) & a regional transit authority like the Bi-State Development (Metro Transit/MetroLink) in Greater St. Louis or KCATA in Kansas City would have to be created here for that even get discussed and receive any serious traction. 

So, you're saying there's a chance....

[kayman]

37 minutes ago, J-Rob said:

So, you're saying there's a chance....

Yes, there is an opening to the possibility for the light rapid transit mode occurring here.

[jthomas]

I wonder if at some point, the technology that is being developed for autonomous cars will be useful for a transit application such as the Blue Line? Driverless train operation is already a thing, but only on systems which are fully grade separated and have devices such as platform screen doors to seal people off from the guideway. An LRT line is a much more complex environment due to the many grade and pedestrian crossings, but at the same time I'd have to think it is a more predictable environment than a car operating on city streets. Automatic train operation would eliminate driver shortage as a barrier to increased frequency.

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, jthomas said:

I wonder if at some point, the technology that is being developed for autonomous cars will be useful for a transit application such as the Blue Line? Driverless train operation is already a thing, but only on systems which are fully grade separated and have devices such as platform screen doors to seal people off from the guideway. An LRT line is a much more complex environment due to the many grade and pedestrian crossings, but at the same time I'd have to think it is a more predictable environment than a car operating on city streets. Automatic train operation would eliminate driver shortage as a barrier to increased frequency.

You don’t necessarily need platform doors (PSDs) for ATO. 

Granted there are different Grades of Automation (GoA), but the SkyTrain in Vancouver( the highest grade, GoA 4)  is fully automated and runs unattended without PSDs. Other systems are capable of fully automated, unmanned operation without PSDs but still run with attendants onboard…the DC Metro comes to mind. The capability for the Metro to run between termini without an attendant onboard has been demonstrated in the past…I think an attendant may be necessary to turn trains at their terminus, however.

There are light rail systems that operate in ATO (Muni Metro in SF, Ottawa, the new Crosstown Line in Toronto) but only in their grade separated, underground sections. 

It would be a pointless, colossal expenditure for CATS to buy new vehicles (I doubt the S70 Avantos are capable of GoA 4, maybe just basic ATO) and fully eliminate all crossings for the purpose of unmanned ATO. 

That said, I think outside of Chicago, NY, Boston, and Cleveland, I think most heavy rail systems in the US will likely move towards GoA 4 (unmanned) operation at one point in the future. BART is installing CBTC at present, and IIRC plans to install PSDs. The DC Metro has a team of working on the procurement of a CBTC system as we speak, and the GM has publicly stated he is interested in moving towards full automation and adding PSDs. Granted CBTC/PSDs aren’t necessary for full automation, but certainly make the transition easier. 

[jthomas]

3 hours ago, LKN704 said:

You don’t necessarily need platform doors (PSDs) for ATO. 

Granted there are different Grades of Automation (GoA), but the SkyTrain in Vancouver( the highest grade, GoA 4)  is fully automated and runs unattended without PSDs. Other systems are capable of fully automated, unmanned operation without PSDs but still run with attendants onboard…the DC Metro comes to mind. The capability for the Metro to run between termini without an attendant onboard has been demonstrated in the past…I think an attendant may be necessary to turn trains at their terminus, however.

There are light rail systems that operate in ATO (Muni Metro in SF, Ottawa, the new Crosstown Line in Toronto) but only in their grade separated, underground sections. 

It would be a pointless, colossal expenditure for CATS to buy new vehicles (I doubt the S70 Avantos are capable of GoA 4, maybe just basic ATO) and fully eliminate all crossings for the purpose of unmanned ATO. 

That said, I think outside of Chicago, NY, Boston, and Cleveland, I think most heavy rail systems in the US will likely move towards GoA 4 (unmanned) operation at one point in the future. BART is installing CBTC at present, and IIRC plans to install PSDs. The DC Metro has a team of working on the procurement of a CBTC system as we speak, and the GM has publicly stated he is interested in moving towards full automation and adding PSDs. Granted CBTC/PSDs aren’t necessary for full automation, but certainly make the transition easier. 

Thanks for the info! What I am wondering, though, is if advances in autonomous driving technology in the future could allow for the implementation of automatic train operation without the need to upgrade infrastructure through grade separation, platform screens etc. I am skeptical that we will see fully autonomous cars in urban areas anytime soon. However, an LRT line, even with at-grade vehicle and pedestrian crossings, is a less complex environment than a busy downtown street. Could the technology currently being developed for cars be applied to trains to allow a far broader implementation of automatic operation?