Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[monsoon]

^They said the difference between the two options was $30M - $35M. How much is the revival of a neighborhood worth? Sadly this amount is the same amount the federal government spends in Iraq in just 2 hours.

[orulz]

The NCRR alignment would put the station about 1/4 mile south of where the Tryon option would put it. Asian Corners would still be a reasonable walk from the station, but North Tryon itself would be pushing it. The NCRR option would serve the gridded industrial area near the intersection of Sugar Creek and Davidson better, whereas the Asian Corners station would serve the Tryon corridor better.

[monsoon]

^The difference between these two locations is just huge. This comes from someone who use to live there. I really hope they take the alignment that places the station closer to Tryon.

[uptownliving]

What will be key in the City's decision on whether to align it to Aisan Corners or NCRR at Sugar Creek will be the results of the North Tryon Redevelopment Study which is currently underway. Segment 1 of the study which covers Tryon from downtown to Sugar Creek is about complete. Segment 2 which will cover Sugar Creek to Old Concord is next up and will give the city an idea of the redevelopment potential of N Tryon.

On a side note I notice that NCRR has started Preliminary Engineering to make the Sugar Creek crossing Grade Seperated. I wonder if CATS will be participating in that since it is planned for the NE Line to run parallel to the NCRR Alignment.

Edited February 27, 2008 by uptownliving

[dubone]

I remember thinking at the time that the city was basically pushing this behind the scenes, but that MTC chose the cheaper more direct option anyway. I have a feeling that the $35m difference could be quickly made up with a STIF, however, I'm sure part of their analysis is whether they'd get a similar redevelopment with the stations where they are with the current preferred alignment. It is really just a matter of putting the station within Asian Mall, as well as hamstring the redevelopment by having to make sure the train can run right through the land, versus putting the station a block away from Asian Mall. That is about a .3 mile difference. But it puts it closer to N Tryon to help those old auto-dependent retailers to convert to more updated and urban patterns.

However, it also puts the station .3miles away from the currently planned station underneath the Sugar Creek Rd bridge that NCDOT will be building over the railroad corridor. That whole northern section of NoDa is already showing considerable infill and densification with Renaissance and Steel Gardens and Galleries at NoDa. Steel Gardens, for example is exactly a .5 mi walk to the current planned station, but a station within Asian mall would be .8 mi. That basically takes that section of NoDa out of the station area's comfortable walking distance.

To me, while it would be great to see N Tryon convert from those auto-oriented stores, the warehouse area in the northern section of NoDa (between Oakwood and N Davision) seems like it has much more potential to be an urban station area. Meanwhile, that planned station still provides a strong impetus to redevelopment of Asian Mall, since it is half mile radius.

It is all a matter of weighing the development value/potential of N Tryon between Sugar Creek and Eastway against the value/potential of the northern edge of NoDa.

Personally, I can see it both ways, and would likely support either way, but it makes for an interesting comparison. That is part of the reason both options remain on the table.

[ChiefJoJo]

With some of the member universities being from the Triangle, WRAL has coverage of the tournament, but more specifically how the new LRT will affect the CIAA attendees. Looks like positive reviews.

[monsoon]

I remember thinking at the time that the city was basically pushing this behind the scenes, but that MTC chose the cheaper more direct option anyway. .......

Are you sure this was decided by the MTC? I thought it was left up to the city of Charlotte to decide if it wanted to spend the extra money (outside of the transit funding) to move this line over to north Tryon. I seem to remember McCroy complaining the city might not have the money.

[dubone]

It isn't crystal clear in my memory, but I was almost positive that I was at the meeting where it was discussed and they opted to go with the Eastway route. However, they opted to continue with engineering for both options in case the city decided to pay for the Asian Mall route for economic development purposes. I am pretty certain that that is why the other route shows as solid with the other route as dotted.

EDIT: Here is the meeting where it was discussed and decided. I was at that meeting and it was pretty well clear that the higher costs for the Sugar Creek-N Tryon alignment alternative should come from a budget outside of the CATS budget. However, to not hamstring the city if they decided to pay for it, they kept it as an alternative for design. I remember now that Mayor Pat went on a tirade about a budget controversy at the time (I think it resolved itself) and doubted the city could come up with money to fund the Sugar Creek alignment.

In short, the final decision is not made, but based on the discussion and the consensus at the time, it is almost certain that unless the city supplements the budget, that the NCRR-Eastway alternative is the one that will eventually be built. That is the cost number that has since been used for budgeting.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/MTC/MTC+6.28.06.htm

[monsoon]

....

In short, the final decision is not made, but based on the discussion and the consensus at the time, it is almost certain that unless the city supplements the budget, that the NCRR-Eastway alternative is the one that will eventually be built. That is the cost number that has since been used for budgeting.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/MTC/MTC+6.28.06.htm

Yes, thanks for looking that up as that is what I remember. If the option is taken, the City pays for it out of non-transit funds. My guess is the decision won't be made until the detailed engineering work is done for the NE line where they will get an idea of the true costs to build it.

In studying the satellite map of the route I am thinking now that either option would be fine however I wish they would add another station in this area as basically the Sugar Creek station is the only one between Noda and the intersection of Eastway Dr & Tryon. If the could take the option, but put a station basically where it is placed now, and another one on the north side of the Asian mall, I think that would be the best of both worlds.

If they could get the concrete plant to move, which is a huge hole in the middle of this area, this would be a great revival neighborhood.

[Raintree21]

A reminder that CATS is having two public information sessions this week for the NE Lynx extension.

The dates and locations are:

[Neo]

I am a bit behind the times. My wife and I (and a couple of others) took the train for the first time this past Saturday to avoid driving downtown due to the CIAA beind in town. For anyone interested we went to see Stomp (for the second time now) so this was our reasoning for getting in the middle of the CIAA crowd.

I was quite honestly dreading taking the train a little due to all of the bad press that the ticket machines and train intervals have gotten. We drove to the Tyvola park and ride lot and when we were walking up to the station the train arrived so obviously we missed it and had to wait for the next one. I purchased four round-trip tickets. The machine seemed to not be able to pick up with the pace at which my fingers were pressing buttons so that was a bit frustrating. The tickets took a lot longer than I expected to come out. In fact, an older couple that was directly behind me (their first time riding too) asked me if the machine was working. Once I got the tickets and my change I proceeded to wait for the train. All of the trains were running double cars from what I could tell on Saturday. The entire trip, while I was downtown and had a view of the trains as we were walking around, and on the return trip, I didn't see one single car train. The intervals seemed to be ~15-20 minutes. I will note that the time that the train was scheduled to arrive at the Tyvola station was about 10 minutes off so IMO you can't depend on the departing/arrival times for stations.

When the train arrived we had to squeeze our way in as it was absolutely packed. I used to take the red line subway in Chicago to work every day and this was akin to that experience which I've missed since moving from there. I heard nothing but praise from riders of the train. I even overheard one guy saying "this is the best thing that ever happened to Charlotte" and I overheard a rebuttal of "I'd like to personally shake the Mayor's hand for getting this thing built." As others have said there were people from all walks of life and it was truly a big city feel to ride it into downtown, especially with it being so packed.

For our return trip we got on at 7th Street so that we could get a seat, but by the time we got to the arena station all of the seats were filled and folks were standing in the aisles. Anytime we go downtown for an event or to just walk around we'll likely just take the train instead of dealing with parking and any associated fees. I hate that I've waited so long to ride the train and although the machines are a little frustrating I believe that is the only bottleneck. I would like to see the intervals between trains shrink a little but it isn't a big deal to wait 15 or 20 minutes for the next train IMO.

[roningreensboro]

I was in Charlotte Saturday night to celebrate my friends birthday at Blue Resturant. One of my friends told me to park in downtown but after driving around for 30 minutes I decided to park at the Bland Street Station. So we took the train in to CTC and had dinner, drinks, and so forth. Coming back we left out of CTC and the ticket machine malfunctioned on us while there. I brought my one way ticket and just as it finished printing my ticket and giving me my changed the machine shut down to rebot. I told my girlfriend that this is just unacceptable for a city this size and machines of this standard. We had to walk to the other end of the station to purchase the remaining tickets but for my friends first time riding they enjoyed it. I just wish they fix the machines and add like 4 more per station.

[Charlotte_native]

I am a bit behind the times. My wife and I (and a couple of others) took the train for the first time this past Saturday to avoid driving downtown due to the CIAA beind in town. For anyone interested we went to see Stomp (for the second time now) so this was our reasoning for getting in the middle of the CIAA crowd.

We hit Stomp saturday at 4:00 also! Great show. The friends we went with parked at East/West and took the train in. We joined them on the train out to eat in Southend then send them on their way. It was their first time using it -- they all live on Lake Wylie -- they said they won't be dealing with downtown parking any more!

[New Name]

I got stuck in the mass of bodies on an inbound train on Saturday; considering the CIAA and the weather, I should have expected the trains to be packed but it was just ridiculous. Double train, absolutely jammed with people and instead of leaving riders on the platform for lack of space, we actually had people trackle their way into the train, shoving and pushing. My wife caught an elbow and was upset. We got off at Stonewall and walked the rest of the way.

There was a CATS official jammed in with us; he could not check tickets because he could not free his hands up from his sides. Overheard the CATS officials' frustrations saying they have asked for more frequent trains because there is no question the need is there, but he feels CATS will not authorize enough trains. He said they HAVE the trains in the system to run more often, and many officials have asked for more service to clean up these messes, but to no avail. It was interesting to hear his take on it.

[carolina_fan]

A reminder that CATS is having two public information sessions this week for the NE Lynx extension.

The dates and locations are:

[Andyc545]

Any updates from tonight's meeting? I heard second-hand that Uptown through NoDa may start running, while the more difficult sections are still under construction. Can anyone confirm?

Personally, I hadn't heard that from anything official through CATs, more have heard it through general wish lists. I think that idea makes the most sense if they can pull it off. Just see how the process would work as far as testing before opening to the public. Should also help to jumpstart some of the TOD projects. I guess this option would be decided in the preliminary engineering stage which is taking place now.

[uptownliving]

Any updates from tonight's meeting? I heard second-hand that Uptown through NoDa may start running, while the more difficult sections are still under construction. Can anyone confirm?

Yeah the Project Manager did state that it was possible that the Uptown to Noda section might open about 6 months earlier than the Noda to 485 section. However they made it very clear they had no intention of phasing the project. Either the whole thing gets done at once or nothing gets done at all.

[monsoon]

^This rumor about phasing keeps rising to the surface. I saw on another website the possibility of this happening because of the deal that Siemens wants Charlotte to buy more trains now. My guess is that without the ridership coming from UNCC, the line wouldn't come close to qualifying for federal funds as the rules stand today so they have to build the entire thing at once. The only way they could phase it would be for the city to completely pay for the part to NoDa. There has been a suggestion that Charlotte pass another tax to do this.

Interestingly enough however, while I don't doubt the project manager said that, he would not be the one that would make the decision. That is if you accept the premise that CATS is supposed to be the implemeter and it's the MTC and the Charlotte city council who set the policy and approve where the money gets spent.

[uptownliving]

There was a CATS official jammed in with us; he could not check tickets because he could not free his hands up from his sides. Overheard the CATS officials' frustrations saying they have asked for more frequent trains because there is no question the need is there, but he feels CATS will not authorize enough trains. He said they HAVE the trains in the system to run more often, and many officials have asked for more service to clean up these messes, but to no avail. It was interesting to hear his take on it.

Just my thoughts...but I think they are waiting to re-introduce the Trolley next month before they increase the weekend intervals faster than 20 minutes.

What it really comes down to is money....if the City Council and MTC give the green light for a couple more million dollars per year to increase the frequency on the LYNX then CATS will do it...but if they keep the budget as is then don't expect any drastic changes.

[uptownliving]

Interestingly enough however, while I don't doubt the project manager said that, he would not be the one that would make the decision. That is if you accept the premise that CATS is supposed to be the implemeter and it's the MTC and the Charlotte city council who set the policy and approve where the money gets spent.

The MTC already made the decision not to phase the line when they passed the 2030 Plan back in 2006. You probably remember the 2025 plan did some phasing of the Northeast Line...however the 2030 Plan got rid of the Phasing. Of course the MTC could always vote again and decide to phase the line again...but at this point it doesn't look like they will.

[monsoon]

^I do remember that. They also decided to phase the North line, and have now moved towards instead of building the entire two phases at the same time. This has been mentioned in the North topic.

[monsoon]

...

What it really comes down to is money....if the City Council and MTC give the green light for a couple more million dollars per year to increase the frequency on the LYNX then CATS will do it...but if they keep the budget as is then don't expect any drastic changes.

They could also hire an independent auditor others to come in and identify where CATS is wasting money. Given they wasted $100M on the LRT project, I would think it would be reasonable to assume there is also a lot of waste in this organization on a daily basis. In fact I would bet money there is a lot of waste.

The absolute worst thing they can do is build a transit system that people want to use, and not run the trains enough to satisfy the demand.

[uptownliving]

The first thing that the new CATS CEO did was announce an audit to do just what you talked about. Taking a complete look at the operation to look for better ways of doing things. The report hasnt come in yet.

[tozmervo]

Dear CATS,

Please don't swap a regularly full double train with a single. Thanks.

Your pal,

Pushing in at New Bern

[southslider]

What does it even save CATS to run single-car trains? It's still one operator, so electric bills? With the vote over, they shouldn't worry about trains looking empty. Plus, I think dwell times lengthen when patrons don't know where to stand to quickly board the random single-car train.