Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[Andyc545]

CATS now funds and operates the trolleys, and the only trolleys that are running are built in the 21st century. Other than the fact that the capacity would be different because of interiors and overall size, can someone explain to me why they can't just join two or three trolleys and program them in with the light rail vehicles and run the trolleys all the way down to 485? They are busting for capacity, and meanwhile have 3 modern vehicles with an 88 person capacity that can run on those wires and those tracks that just sit around during rush hour!

Speed. At 7 minute intervals, the light rail would catch up with the trolley ultimately putting people in danger and asking for a collision. On top of that, it is not legal for them to run together without adequate timing in between, which slows down the whole process. In fact, before the trolley was deemed inoperable on the same tracks as LYNX due to safety concerns but later was persuaded to run at off peak times. I'd imagine if there was ever an incident with the trolley/LYNX together that the trolley will be forced to shut down (as far as the same track operations).

I remember hearing that the trolley's only max on at 35mph, but I'm not positive about that. I really think the system is maxed as far as operating both forms of transportation. Running LYNX would really provide the maximum capacity. I guess they could theoretically combine multiple trolleys together, but if less than 100 are riding per day, then it would seem impractical.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Andyc545

[MZT]

The trolleys scoot along pretty fast across the 277 bridge... but is adding an extra trolley or two really going to do much to increase capacity? Nah. I'd rather just see the line down Elizabeth done.

Maybe when the blue line is extended, the trolleys will be in service from about NODA to New Bern. It's a long enough distance they could be semi-practical.

Edited August 29, 2008 by MZT

[monsoon]

Speed. At 7 minute intervals, the light rail would catch up with the trolley ultimately putting people in danger and asking for a collision. On top of that, it is not legal for them to run together without adequate timing in between, which slows down the whole process. In fact, before the trolley was deemed inoperable on the same tracks as LYNX due to safety concerns but later was persuaded to run at off peak times. .....

What are you talking about? There has to be adequate timing between any vehicles on the rails. In the section where there are stations for the trolley, there is a speed limit on the light rail, so they would be perfectly fine operating on the same tracks. They only operate the 3 new just constructed trolleys now and they meet all FTA standards for safety just like the LRVs.

[Andyc545]

What are you talking about? There has to be adequate timing between any vehicles on the rails. In the section where there are stations for the trolley, there is a speed limit on the light rail, so they would be perfectly fine operating on the same tracks. They only operate the 3 new just constructed trolleys now and they meet all FTA standards for safety just like the LRVs.

Do they go 55 mph? That is what seems to be the problem for running it the length of of the Blue Line. I was referring to dubone's comment about running the length, not it's current path to S. End where there is a slower speed limit (35mph I believe). If they are capable of going 55, then I stand corrected, but if not, there is danger of running two lines at different speeds. I have first hand knowledge that I know that one party (not sure if it were the FTA or not) did not allow the trolleys and light rail to originally run on the same track because in the event of a collision, those on a trolley would be prone to much more severe injury than those on the light rail. They lifted it because there was an agreement to limit the usage of the trolley to off peak times, such as it's doing now, and limit the distance, such as they are doing now.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Andyc545

[monsoon]

Do they go 55 mph? That is what seems to be the problem for running it the length of of the Blue Line. ...

There is a speed limit on the section of tracks where the trolley operates. Lynx only goes 25 mph or less in this section because there is a fear of hitting pedestrians. This is because this section is surrounded by sidewalks that were put there when the trolley was operating and all trains whether they be trolley or LRV have to respect this design. This is why Lynx only speeds up to 55 south of the trolley barn.

[Andyc545]

There is a speed limit on the section of tracks where the trolley operates. Lynx only goes 25 mph or less in this section because there is a fear of hitting pedestrians. This is because this section is surrounded by sidewalks that were put there when the trolley was operating and all trains whether they be trolley or LRV have to respect this design. This is why Lynx only speeds up to 55 south of the trolley barn.

Correct, that's what I said (except 35mph which I believe is the maximum it is allowed whether it goes that or not). I was talking about south of the trolley where LYNX operates. This is where there would be a problem for the trolley which was in reference to Dubone's post/question.

[dubone]

When I first suggested this, I was referring to running it all the way to 485. But given the maximum speed of 30-35mph, I adjusted that to only run that in the trolley zone from 7th or 9th to Tremont.

My thinking is that the trolleys add capacity of 80-90 riders per trolley car. They already have a speed limit in the Uptown and Southend zones that both the LRVs and Trolleys can and would go, and would prevent any accidents. So then imagine that the trolley is run at a staggered interval in between the LRV schedule. During off hours when the LRT comes every 20 minutes, the trolley would run every 20 minutes too, and every station in uptown and Southend would be served every 10 minutes. During rush hour when the LRT comes every 7.5 minutes, the trolley would run every 7.5 minutes too, and every station uptown and in southend would be served every ~3 minutes.

If you are a rider traveling within that zone, then you get the benefit of higher frequency. If you are a rider going outside of that zone (to New Bern or South), then you would still have the same schedule as you do now, but many riders that were only going between SouthEnd and Uptown are no longer using the LRV. That frees up capacity for additional riders on the LRVs.

Personally, about 1/2 of the time I ride the line, I am going only within SouthEnd and Uptown. If I could benefit from getting a vehicle twice as fast, it would be great. I know that Mobuchu commutes twice daily between uptown and Southend. His schedule and maybe hundreds or thousands of others that commute within that zone would benefit from the increase in frequency.

Certainly with our line busting at the seams, already hitting the ridership expectations of 2020 or so, there is enough reason to pay an extra three drivers and the other operating costs to increase the capacity by that incremental amount.

It might require a little thought work to figure out the schedules, but I'm sure a CATS employee team could spend a month or two on that and develop a plan to do that.

Back to my original point, we desperately need the capacity, while 3 modern cars, each with a 90 rider capacity just sits in the shop during rush hour simply because they have a different paint job and can only travel in one section of the track. I will stipulate that it is would not work for everyone. But why not run them and take away whatever riders it can from the LRT vehicles to free up that capacity.

By only running those vehicles in odd hours, all that capacity and the original capital costs are wasted on 40 people a day. That is a huge waste.

[uptownliving]

I notice today that CATS has cancelled Trolley service due to the Football game (VT vs ECU) and their plans for increased LYNX service to handle the football game crowds.

I don't think the problem is the speed, I think the problem with Trolleys is the dwell time.

The LYNX cars have flat floors and have a dwell time of about 20 seconds...very easy to get in and out. Whereas the Trolleys don't have flat floors (you have to step up into the Trolley).

There are probably some other factors that go into it...but CATS doesnt seem to be comfortable running the Trolleys when they run trains faster than 15min intervals. The Trolleys just get in the way.

[monsoon]

....

There are probably some other factors that go into it...but CATS doesnt seem to be comfortable running the Trolleys when they run trains faster than 15min intervals. The Trolleys just get in the way.

Indeed. That is the real reason they are not running during busy times. It doesn't have anything to do with the speed and safety of the vehicles. Instead, they were not designed to be stopped at the LRV stations and because of that they take too long to load. So if you inject one of these cars into the slow area of the track, then you just removed a slot where a much higher capacity and faster loading LRV can go.

I think they should stop operating them just due to the operational costs given there seems to be very low interest. We said this before, who is going to want to board a history trolley on the same path where sleek new LRVs are operating? I suspect that ridership will drop even further now that school is in session an once it gets colder. I am surprised they have not picked up the nickname "Tober's Folly".

I don't know what else they can do with them at this point. There would seem to be no money to implement this service elsewhere though it would be great if they could.

[Spartan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they only running one trolley car between the LRT trains? So that means there might be two operating at any given time?

This is how I see it:

• There are one or two trolleys in operation in off-peak hours and weekends
  They alternate service between LRVs
  They only go to SouthEnd
  They have a lower capacity than the LRVs
  

Considering that, its a wonder they have the ridership that they do. Its hart to make the comparison between the LRVs and the trolleys since they are not operating on the same rule book.

[monsoon]

....

Considering that, its a wonder they have the ridership that they do. Its hart to make the comparison between the LRVs and the trolleys since they are not operating on the same rule book.

That really wasn't the point being made above.

[dubone]

Spartan, that is exactly it. They run the trolleys already between the LRTs in the uptown-southend zone. But as uptownliving said, CATS has been reluctant to run the trolleys at any time of the week when the lead time is 7.5 minutes. That means, they end up letting that capacity sit idle at the peak times when the line is busting at the seams, but then they end up running those vehicles only during times when the whole line is less used.

The trolley already has the issue of only traveling about 1/3 of the rail corridor to begin with. Then they only run those cars during times when the whole transit market is reduced when they have plenty of LRVs sitting idle that could travel the full corridor. Therefore, the way they USE the trolley vehicles, it is limited to being a gimmick and is irrelevant from a transit perspective. These are practically brand new vehicles. Granted they do not have the design capabilities of an LRV (speed, capacity, and low-floor convenience), but if they TRIED, they could still run these cars during peak hours when the additional capacity is desperately needed. It is a known fact that these cars can't go beyond Tremont due to the speed factor, but they can travel in the zone with the highest density. Why not take advantage of that incremental capacity and simply make it work?

It might have a slower load time, but they can still stay at the stations for the same amount of time, they simply would get fewer people able to board. I still think that it is perfectly fine as people who have less ability to walk up the stairs would simply wait for the next LRV. Also, only a minority of people at the stations would want to travel within the uptown-southend zone anyway, so the number of people needing to board at each station would not be the same as those needing to enter the LRVs in the same amount of time.

I'm not proposing this for all time, but let's face the facts that peak ridership will hit 2025 levels by Spring. We obviously have plenty of capacity now for off peak times because of the capacity we already own for peak times. But when we hit maximum capacity in peak times, we need to do what we can to increase that capacity while we wait for our new LRVs to be delivered. I would propose that they make appropriate planning steps to make it work between now and next year, and then use that capacity as best as they can to supplement peak loads between 2009 and mid 2010 when the additional LRVs are delivered.

If someone can tell me that CATS has another plan to increase capacity between now and delivery of the new LRVs in 2010, then I'll back off this theory. But to me, it seems like they are wasting those vehicles.

Even though it seems like we've ended up relegating the trolleys to a gimmick and only running them when few are riding the rails, I'm not ready to claim that the trolley was a total waste or a folly. Also, it wasn't of Tober's making either, as the trolley was created from a grassroots effort, and was funded by city council as a pilot program to prove that rail transit was a viable option in Charlotte. Also, they ended up being able to reuse a lot of the infrastructure built for the trolley, while some of it obviously needed to be expanded for the real transit line.

But my thesis is that now that we have the trolley cars and the LRT is busting at the seams during peak times, why not use those vehicles for prime time?

[Version70-8]

I thought that I read somewhere that the funding for the second leg of the light-rail had finally been approved by the government? This section being from Uptown to the University area.

[kickazzz2000]

I thought that I read somewhere that the funding for the second leg of the light-rail had finally been approved by the government? This section being from Uptown to the University area.

Light Rail and High Speed rail are two separate entities, the latter being High Speed Intercity Rail, specifically an extension of the Northeast Corridor Acela from Washington down to Charlotte.

www.sehsr.com

[JayGee]

I thought that I read somewhere that the funding for the second leg of the light-rail had finally been approved by the government? This section being from Uptown to the University area.

They approved funding to help pay for an engineering study for the next section, not construction itself.

[tozmervo]

APTA numbers for the second quarter of '08 show an average weekday ridership of 20,300 for the LYNX. In the first Q they showed 18,600. How do we rectify APTA's numbers with what has been reported directly by CATS, which is lower than those numbers. Edited September 14, 2008 by tozmervo

[monsoon]

^I don't think CATS has released numbers for the 2Q yet and they might be mum on ridership at the moment. If you look closely at that report, you will find that almost 30,000 fewer people rode LYNX in June than in May. That is a one month drop of 6.65% and I would guess there won't be any big press releases on that one as opposed to what they do when there is an increase.

[Bikeguy]

^I don't think CATS has released numbers for the 2Q yet and they might be mum on ridership at the moment. If you look closely at that report, you will find that almost 30,000 fewer people rode LYNX in June than in May. That is a one month drop of 6.65% and I would guess there won't be any big press releases on that one as opposed to what they do when there is an increase.

^ Be not concerned. I would harken to suggest that vacations just might have something to do with the decrease. The lighter highway traffic certainly reflects this, why wouldn't LYNX ?

[tozmervo]

In regards to the drop in June from May, I'd wager that Speed Street was responsible for a decent chunk of that extra May total. There was also one less weekday in June than in May, which doesn't matter when you're talking about averages, but does when you're talking about that 30,000 drop (half of which could be attributed to the extra day). Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised to see a plateau or pull back from the averages we have seen thus far, between gas prices pulling back somewhat (this past weekend not withstanding) and people getting tired of some excruciatingly packed train cars during the morning rush hour. Those four new cars can't get here fast enough.

Anyway, the CATS numbers I'm referring to are the monthly averages they've been releasing, none of which have been near that 20,300 number. I can't figure how a quarterly number can exceed the individual numbers for April/May/June. Either CATS has held back numbers favorable to their position, or APTA uses some other method for determining ridership. I don't know how else to account for it.

[monsoon]

^ Be not concerned. I would harken to suggest that vacations just might have something to do with the decrease. The lighter highway traffic certainly reflects this, why wouldn't LYNX ?

I wasn't commenting on the reasons for the drop. I was commenting on the way that CATS promotes itself and it's results vs money consumed.

[uptownliving]

Anyway, the CATS numbers I'm referring to are the monthly averages they've been releasing, none of which have been near that 20,300 number. I can't figure how a quarterly number can exceed the individual numbers for April/May/June. Either CATS has held back numbers favorable to their position, or APTA uses some other method for determining ridership. I don't know how else to account for it.

I noticed the difference between the APTA and CATS numbers as well. I think it can be explained that APTA's numbers are for "unlinked" trips...which that means if for your trip you take 2 buses (conecting from one to the other) that is considered 2 trips....whereas I think the CATS numbers consider "linked" trips as one...even though you may take multiple bus and/or trains to get there. That is why I think that CATS numbers are consistantly lower than APTA's.

[Charlotte_native]

I'd wonder, as well, if drops in June (mid summer) could be a result of heat as well as vacations. Since the stops aren't air conditioned, I'd wonder if some 'part time' riders or joy riders for events, etc, might not use it during extreme heat.

[monsoon]

The local news is reporting that CATS contracted with a security company called Allied Barton for $5 million to supply 32 transit officers that are supposed to patrol the transit center and the light rail line. (presumably these are the guys checking for tickets) As it turns out the company did not hire all of these officers and CATS opened the line with no transit cops. This would explain why we went for some time, as pointed out in this topic, with no checks being done for people riding the trains without paying. It would also explain why the checks seem to occur on an inconsistent basis and almost never during crowded situations. The article, as usual, is badly written, but it does appear the NC state government has opened an investigation. CATS for its part places the blame on the state for this.

[uptownliving]

From what I understand Allied Barton only partols CATS Fixed Assets...meaning things that dont move. So they never were supposed to patrol the Light Rail line or Buses. So all of your suppostions and assumptions above are incorrect. The Allied Barton contract is for them to patrol areas such as the Transit Center and the Light Rail facility and the Bus depot. None the less sounds like Allied Barton needs to get on the ball and get all of their contractural obligations met.

[MZT]

So, how much money would the MTC ask the Feds for, in order to complete the blue line? 50% of it... 300 million or so?

Paulson is asking the Congress to approve a 700 billion dollar bailout. That is 1167 fully funded blue lines at 600 million each. Every state could get 23 of them.

Instead, that money will be buying out vinyl village ghost towns and empty shopping centers.

Edited September 21, 2008 by MZT