Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[Durhamite]

It proves my point that I have said consistently on this forum that LRT does not drive desirable development, city urban growth policies do. I note that CATS has put away the charts on that station.

It's a combination of the two. A city like Portland has integrated urban development with responsible mass transit. It's well known that the Pacific Northwest has traditionally been more progressive in terms of urban development, etc. Well, Charlotte, NC is no Portland but what other (mid-size) city in the South has even come close to what Charlotte, NC has done regarding mass transit. Cities with extensively more established urban centers.

IMO, there is absolutely no way Southend develops into what it will be 20-30 years from now without LRT.

[grodney]

Have there been cutbacks on staff, specifically fare inspectors? I ride every day (from 485 to 3rd and back), and I haven't seen a single fare inspector since late November.

[urban980]

But development has been taking place down South Blvd for 3 decades, long before the light rail was even a thought. There is no reason to believe the redevelopment would not have occurred without the light rail.

Rail transit down South Blvd has been a thought every since the 80s when Sue Myrick was Charlotte's mayor. Actually, it was first recommended back in 1984 that a line should go from Charlotte to UNCC. At any rate, Charlotte has been thinking of rail for the last 3 decades. Rail is not a new idea for Charlotte at all. It is just newly built.

Also, I grew up in a low income neighborhood near New Bern Station. Take my word for it. Light Rail and Charlotte's trolley changed that side of town. Nobody desired the South End area before the promise of trains. Heck, before trains it wasn't even called South End. It was just a grimy old warehouse district east of Wilmore.

Have there been cutbacks on staff, specifically fare inspectors? I ride every day (from 485 to 3rd and back), and I haven't seen a single fare inspector since late November.

I think CATS is focusing on the late evening trains (7 pm to 11 pm). Those are the trains that I see inspectors on most times. Edited January 27, 2009 by urban980

[Miesian Corners]

I think it bears noting that the serious development on the existing corridor has been taking place north of Scaleybark. If the same pattern holds true on the externsion, the development will fill in towards NODA but not much will change beyond that.

I own 3 rentals near the Archdale station - and none of my tenants moved there to be close to light rail. They just liked the neighborhood, know people nearby, and preferred being close to South Boulevard for quick access to shopping.

I don't think we're yet at the point, where the presence of a rail line affects people's decisions outside of being a few stops from uptown.

But much like the Minneapolis Hiawatha line, this is the first in Charlotte that will anchored on both ends by large employment and institutional centers. The Hiawatha Line has downtown Minneapolis on one end and the Mall of America/MSP airport on the other. The Blue extension will have UNC Charlotte and its combination of students and faculty/staff on one end (30,000 people) and uptown on the other.

[gman430]

Have there been cutbacks on staff, specifically fare inspectors? I ride every day (from 485 to 3rd and back), and I haven't seen a single fare inspector since late November.

How come the light rail in Charlotte doesn't have gates where you have to have a ticket to enter like MARTA in Atlanta does?

I think you have demonstrated several times in this topic that you really don't have any idea what you are talking about on this subject and you consistently fail to understand the point that I make. I don't know if it is deliberate or you lack the comprehension but stating the obvious isn't a way to be sarcastic when you even get that wrong. The DC transit line you mention was actually rejected by the the process you mention. It only got passed due to a lot of back room political pressure for the FTA to go back and review it again with a different set of eyes. If this is the kind of plan you are suggesting for the NE line then you are admitting that it will not survive on its own merits. Aside from that, I started the Charlotte forum years ago in part to discuss the New Starts process for the South LRT.

Agreed. That's pretty much the same way it got done in Salt Lake City too. Political pressure by the right is how it got built and nothing more.

Edited January 27, 2009 by citylife

[Neo]

How come the light rail in Charlotte doesn't have gates where you have to have a ticket to enter like MARTA in Atlanta does?

This has been discussed before. Having a closed ticketed system was too costly thus CATS decided to have fare inspectors instead.

[urban980]

How come the light rail in Charlotte doesn't have gates where you have to have a ticket to enter like MARTA in Atlanta does?

One word. COST lol!!! Also, it is more difficult to stop free loaders on an "at-grade" Station as a opposed to an underground or above ground station. Turnstiles alone would not be effective. CATS would have to invest more money into the overall design of the stations in order to make free loading more difficult. They figured that fare inspectors and a $50 citation would be cheaper. I think they are wishing now that they had just gone with the turnstiles and a more securely designed station. I expect CATS to convert the LYNX system over to turnstiles before the NE line is built. They will probably do this at the same time they extend the current South corridor platforms to the required 300 plus feet to support 3-car trains.

[Charlotte_native]

But development has been taking place down South Blvd for 3 decades, long before the light rail was even a thought. There is no reason to believe the redevelopment would not have occurred without the light rail.

The most glaring example of this is the actual Scaleybark station. The city got involved in that one, as we all know, and even offered incentives for developers to put up Light Rail Specific TOD. This is the reason for the unusual station design and this station was highlighted as a big example of changes that light rail will bring. Yet, there is nothing there. It's a parking lot, some closed up businesses, and that station has very few riders except for transfers from the bus and park and ride. It proves my point that I have said consistently on this forum that LRT does not drive desirable development, city urban growth policies do. I note that CATS has put away the charts on that station.

Development like what is happening now hasn't been going on along South Blvd for 3 decades. The dense residential wouldn't be there and be in process without the rail. The developers building these projects chose these locations because it is there, and many of the residents, some who have posted here, have moved along the line specifically to be near it. Respectfully, there is plenty of reason to believe this redevelopment wouldn't have occured without the rail -- those doing it say so. Would there be new construction, shopping, more big box along South Blvd? Sure, but not what is going on now.

The Scaleybark station project was a victim of bad timing. The RFP's were coming back, and developers were lining up to build a project there -- then the financial world collapsed. Otherwise you'd see construction right now at that sight. This past year is a bad year to use for reasoning about why things might or might not occur. The largest factor for many is the difficulty in funding and concerns that once residential is complete buyers won't be able or willing to buy (which is why so many apartment projects are still in process along the line -- they fill up quickly). There will be a project at Scaleybark, there are still people looking, but don't expect a move to be made for some time now.

Developers are also still eyeing parcels and projects along the proposed north line. The economy hasn't stopped plans, just action. And rightfully so, foolish to ignore the market -- when the timing is right these things will slowly begin coming to fruition.

[gman430]

This has been discussed before. Having a closed ticketed system was too costly thus CATS decided to have fare inspectors instead.

I would have thought having fare inspectors would cost more money over time than having a gate system. Interesting how Atlanta thought gates weren't too expensive but Charlotte did. MARTA installed new gates at all of their subway stations within the last year or two.

Edited January 27, 2009 by citylife

[uptownliving]

I would have thought having fare inspectors would cost more money over time than having a gate system. Interesting how Atlanta thought gates weren't too expensive but Charlotte did. MARTA installed new gates at all of their subway stations within the last year or two.

The new Breezecard system on the MARTA cost $190M to install....making a system closed and secure costs a lot of money and CATS has been pretty happy with the rate of people that legally ride the LYNX which they estimate is somewhere above 99% when they do the enforement. For example in their last enforecement blitz of the 23,000 people that rode LYNX that day only 14 were found without tickets (this was the day of the Monday Night Football). Why spend millions of dollars on a system that is not really cost justified.

[southslider]

The DC transit line you mention was actually rejected by the the process you mention. It only got passed due to a lot of back room political pressure for the FTA to go back and review it again with a different set of eyes. If this is the kind of plan you are suggesting for the NE line then you are admitting that it will not survive on its own merits.

It's common knowledge that FTA, especially under the former Administration, has been moving the goal posts, making it harder to past New Starts scrutiny. If not for this, the Tysons/Dulles extension in DC would have past muster. So then, I'd say the true "political pressure" was coming from the anti-transit libertarians/pro-auto populists supportive of a culture that funds highways at 80-percent federal match but has slashed transit down to 50-percent.

All rapid transit lines have faced politics. St. Louis got their first line by having the rail right-of-way and bridge over the Mississippi River counted as their local match. Charlotte moved up the list for its first line because Orlando killed their prospects for local match. Minneapolis has fought its university on the Central Corridor branch extension and eliminated stations just to keep within the cut-off of a changing ratio at each stage in the game. And again, it has been a game of changing rules. Charlotte barely got approval to start Preliminary Engineering and will have to fight again to get approval for Final Design and again ultimately for Full Funding Grant Agreement. But while I appreciate the scrutiny to achieve fiscal prudence, everyone knows that the umpires officiating the game have been rooting against the team.

[gman430]

The new Breezecard system on the MARTA cost $190M to install....making a system closed and secure costs a lot of money and CATS has been pretty happy with the rate of people that legally ride the LYNX which they estimate is somewhere above 99% when they do the enforement. For example in their last enforecement blitz of the 23,000 people that rode LYNX that day only 14 were found without tickets (this was the day of the Monday Night Football). Why spend millions of dollars on a system that is not really cost justified.

I understand what you are saying, but millions of dollars are already being spent on this system. Fare inspectors have got to get paid somehow. I would like to see how much it costs CATS yearly to pay these inspectors and how many years it would take to add up to the costs and maintenance of gates. Compared to the $700 billion financial bailout and the $825 billion economic stimulus package, $190 million is chump change. It's good though that people aren't scamming the system.

[monsoon]

It's common knowledge that FTA, especially under the former Administration, has been moving the goal posts, making it harder to past New Starts scrutiny. ...

If this is common knowledge, then why did you cite it to try to pass an insult my way in an attempt to discredit me from having the proper knowledge to speak on this subject. You just contradicted yourself.

[monsoon]

I would have thought having fare inspectors would cost more money over time than having a gate system. Interesting how Atlanta thought gates weren't too expensive but Charlotte did. MARTA installed new gates at all of their subway stations within the last year or two.

To be fair, MARTA was conceived, funded and approved at a time when the USA was willing to make a significant investment in its urban infrastructure. The MARTA system, along with BART and the DC Metro, were all beneficiaries of a significant amounts of federal spending in the late 1960s to develop and design modern rail transit using late 20th century technology. This involved such stuff as electronic signaling, electronic ticketing, advanced carriage design, etc. Marta did not pickup all of this technology, namely the electronic ticketing system first used on BART, but it was a traditional heavy rail design using this modern technology. (its also the reason these 3 systems look similar)

As far as I know, there are no heavy rail systems using the challenge system used on Lynx. MARTA carries over 250,000 passengers/day as compared to a projection that LYNX might carry about 35,000-50,000/day in 20 years.

[orulz]

As far as I know, there are no heavy rail systems using the challenge system used on Lynx. MARTA carries over 250,000 passengers/day as compared to a projection that LYNX might carry about 35,000-50,000/day in 20 years.

That sort of depends on your definition of "heavy rail." Some might argue that having gates in the stations that prevent access to the platforms unless you've paid your fare is a defining characteristic of heavy rail.

But that aside, one possible counter-example is the Red / Purple Line subway in Los Angeles. It carries about 150,000 people per day. In addition, all of LA's light rail lines, the busiest of which carries over 80,000 people per day, also use a proof-of-payment fare system. There has been some consideration of installing turnstiles on the entire subway (the stations were designed with this eventual possibility in mind) and on some of the busiest blue line light rail stations, but it has been operating successfully as a proof-of-payment system for over 15 years.

I'll agree that a system that uses turnstiles is ideal, but the cost (particularly related to how stations must be designed) makes it such that it's not always worth it. Particularly in Charlotte's case, the system is probably not big enough to justify the expense.

[uptownliving]

There are plenty of examples of Heavy Rail subways in Europe that are proof of payment aka the Honor System.

It probably costs CATS $500K each year for the fare inspectors and blitzes....And what is the typical lifetime of a gate system...20-30 years? So if someone can come up with a plan to close and gate the Lynx line for $15M then you are hired....But realistically I don't think they could do it for anywhere near that cost.

[queensguy06]

I don't know how effective turnstiles are to be quite honest, especially with the open platforms that most light rail lines use. What's to stop someone from jumping the fence or the turnstile to get to the platform? It's just as easy as not buying a ticket in the current system.

Not to mention that most of the light rail lines in the U.S. use the honor-based system from what I understand. Dallas, Houston, Denver, Portland, Minneapolis, St. Louis, and Jersey just to name a few. I just don't think that non-paying riders are enough of a problem to change from law enforcement to an expensive ticketing system that still is not impervious to free riders.

[urban980]

I don't know how effective turnstiles are to be quite honest, especially with the open platforms that most light rail lines use. What's to stop someone from jumping the fence or the turnstile to get to the platform? It's just as easy as not buying a ticket in the current system.

Not to mention that most of the light rail lines in the U.S. use the honor-based system from what I understand. Dallas, Houston, Denver, Portland, Minneapolis, St. Louis, and Jersey just to name a few. I just don't think that non-paying riders are enough of a problem to change from law enforcement to an expensive ticketing system that still is not impervious to free riders.

Yeah, you're right about that one. I just know that CATS is reducing their fare inspector budget. That is why we see less inspectors on the train. Since upgrading the stations would be so costly, I can see why CATS is using the honor system. I guess CATS would not need to change over to turnstiles.

On another note, does anybody know when CATS is gonna start retrofitting the current stations to 3-car train status? I know the NE line will feature 3-car train length platforms. It would be silly to turn around a southbound 3-car train after 9th street (or uncouple one car from that train). Sorry if this question has been answered already in this thread, but I am new and I haven't read all previous pages.

Edited January 28, 2009 by urban980

[monsoon]

On another note, does anybody know when CATS is gonna start retrofitting the current stations to 3-car train status? I

There is no date for this upgrade as CATS is expecting the federal government to pay for it and I am not sure if there is even an official plan where the engineering work would be done. It seems like a hard thing to justify as ridership is falling on Lynx and CATS is cutting back service. While people here seem to think there is nothing wrong with this, the FTA will certainly want an explanation.

[urban980]

There is no date for this upgrade as CATS is expecting the federal government to pay for it and I am not sure if there is even an official plan where the engineering work would be done. It seems like a hard thing to justify as ridership is falling on Lynx and CATS is cutting back service. While people here seem to think there is nothing wrong with this, the FTA will certainly want an explanation.

You would think that the expected surge in ridership due to the NE extension would be explanation enough. Crosstown riders could push the current LYNX line to well over 20,000 daily riders. The entire 20 mile line could do as much as 40,000 daily riders. 2,000 passengers per mile is not bad for a light rail line.

It has also been said that the NE line may not get built. The truth is that CATS is gonna build the NE line if nothing else. This much I know from a very reliable source (which I won't name). This whole "if it gets built" argument is an attempt to warm the public up to the possibility of more transit funding. CATS is looking at several "creative" ways of funding Charlotte's massive 9 billion dollar transit plan. The 1/2 cent sales tax is proving not to be reliable in this economy. Things such as vehicle sales tax and additional vehicle registration fees are some of the things they are looking at. These things (to my knowledge) does not require a public vote. Only elected officials vote on these issues.

Edited January 28, 2009 by urban980

[monsoon]

.... Things such as vehicle sales tax and additional vehicle registration fees are some of the things they are looking at. These things (to my knowledge) does not require a public vote. Only elected officials vote on these issues.

Practically no tax increase in NC requires a public vote. The transit tax did because it was designed that way. However, as I have stated before in this topic, Charlotte does not have the authority to create new transit taxes or for that matter any kind of new tax.

The authority to create new taxes is the sole domain of the NC Legislature and in order for Charlotte to gain new taxing authority, they will first need to get a local representative to sponsor the bill and use their political capital to get it through committee. Then the entire legislature will have to vote for it and the governor signs it into law. It's a very difficult task. If the tax is a state wide one, then most likely it will never see the light of day as no rural legislator will vote for a transit tax that does not fund roads. If the tax is specific to Mecklenburg county, then the Legislature will at least want to see 100% agreement from the local delegation. Several local legislators have also said they will not support any new transit tax for Mecklenburg unless it involves road funding.

On the issue of CATS deciding to build the NE extension and nothing else, I will point out that CATS does not make those decisions. That authority rests on the heads of the MTC and I would imagine they will disagree with that philosophy. They control the transit tax and hence control how it is spent. If the city of Charlotte wants to go it alone, they are always free to do so, but as all these pie and the sky schemes suggest, there is no political will here to use more of Charlotte's money to build a Charlotte train.

Finally you mention an "expected surge". Yet all the modeling that decisions will be based on show the entire line carrying about 35,000/day in 2030 and that was based on the now, apparently, bad assumption there will be 100,000 downtown workers.

[urban980]

Practically no tax increase in NC requires a public vote. The transit tax did because it was designed that way. However, as I have stated before in this topic, Charlotte does not have the authority to create new transit taxes or for that matter any kind of new tax.

The authority to create new taxes is the sole domain of the NC Legislature and in order for Charlotte to gain new taxing authority, they will first need to get a local representative to sponsor the bill and use their political capital to get it through committee. Then the entire legislature will have to vote for it and the governor signs it into law. It's a very difficult task. If the tax is a state wide one, then most likely it will never see the light of day as no rural legislator will vote for a transit tax that does not fund roads. If the tax is specific to Mecklenburg county, then the Legislature will at least want to see 100% agreement from the local delegation. Several local legislators have also said they will not support any new transit tax for Mecklenburg unless it involves road funding.

On the issue of CATS deciding to build the NE extension and nothing else, I will point out that CATS does not make those decisions. That authority rests on the heads of the MTC and I would imagine they will disagree with that philosophy. They control the transit tax and hence control how it is spent. If the city of Charlotte wants to go it alone, they are always free to do so, but as all these pie and the sky schemes suggest, there is no political will here to use more of Charlotte's money to build a Charlotte train.

Finally you mention an "expected surge". Yet all the modeling that decisions will be based on show the entire line carrying about 35,000/day in 2030 and that was based on the now, apparently, bad assumption there will be 100,000 downtown workers.

Without going too far into details lol, I think you kinda missed my point in my previous post. Let me try to simplify it.

Charlotte has long envisioned a rail link between Uptown and UNCC. The south corridor was built first because the southside of town has the highest density and highest projected ridership. The density equals higher ridership theory is flawed. The highest transit ridership is Charlotte's poorest neighborhoods. These neighborhoods exist in somewhat low density wooded areas yet their transit ridership (bus ridership) is quite high. The NE corridor will go through poor areas of town and will also have more points of interest than the south corridor line. I am aware of the 35,000 projected ridership by 2030, but we all know that is a very conservative number because the feds' formula for predicting ridership was designed to be conservative. That is why the LYNX beat its projected 9,100 number on its worst month. Ridership is falling, but that is to be expected in the Winter and with lower gas prices. I can promise you this system won't fall below 10,000 daily riders. Heck, it probably won't ever fall below 13,000 again.

My point is that the NE corridor will introduce an already heavy bus riding area of Charlotte to rail. CATS and the MTC is pushing the NE corridor very hard. They are also working on a plan for more transit funding (including a plan to bring streetcars to Charlotte faster too). As for taxation, Charlotte already lobbied for the right to tax Mecklenburg citizens for the current 1/2 cent tax. If Charlotte must ask for permission to levy more taxes, we will have company this time. Raleigh officials will be there asking for the same thing (for the same reasons). In all honesty, Charlotte may not ever have to ask. Raleigh is in the process of asking for money (1/2 cent tax and a $7 vehicle registration). If Raleigh gets it, my guess is that Charlotte could get it too.

Edited January 28, 2009 by urban980

[monsoon]

Without going too far into details lol, I think you kinda missed my point in my previous post. Let me try to simplify it.

Charlotte has long envisioned a rail link between Uptown and UNCC. The south corridor was built first because the southside of town has the highest density and highest projected ridership.....

Actually that is not the history. The long term plans to build rail transit in Charlotte began in the mid 1990s after the DMU demonstration that ran from Huntersville to downtown Charlotte. The Huntersville Mayor and the county petitioned the FTA to bring that train here as part of a traveling FTA demonstration project using a European built DMU passenger train. When the rather expensive tickets sold out and the train made that trip completely packed, to downtown it made a great statement on the potential of transit here. This was in the 1994-1996 time frame. I don't remember the exact year now even though I saw it first hand. This is when the modern rail movement started in Charlotte. The locals also didn't want to be bypassed by Raleigh which, at the time, appeared to be the first city in the state that was going to get a rail system. Quotes from Sue Myrick and Harvey Gantt on this subject will also confirm the city had no plans prior to this time.

The original rail transit corridor for Charlotte was called the North/South Transit Corridor. It did not go to UNCC.

Here is a summary:

• 2005 Transit Plan adopted in 1985 (or so) had no plans for rail transit identified.
  
• The 2010 Vision for the Future Plan created by the City and County had adopted the North/South transit corridor. Basically this is the North Commuter Rail line and the South LRT. The need for the NE extension had not been developed.
  
• The 2015 Transit Plan stated that further transit corridors should be identified.
  
• It was the 2020 Plan where the first mention of the line to UNCC appeared in a city planning document. This plan was adopted in 2000.
  
• A lot of politics got played between the 2020 plan, the 2025 plan and the current plan which is the 2030 plan where the UNCC line was prioritized to its current position. The reason it was scheduled to be build next, along with the North line had more to do with politics rather than it's suitability over the other options.
  

There are other planning documents on file for the NorthEast corridor that pretty much prove there were no plans for trains there until after 2000.

[ChesterCopperPot]

^A Charlotte rail line involving UNCC certainly was envisioned in the 80's. An area rail plan was studied, initiated during Myrick's term, and deemed too cost prohibitive, so they did not include it in the Vision of the future plan in 2005. But it definitely was investigated.

[urban980]

Actually that is not the history. The long term plans to build rail transit in Charlotte began in the mid 1990s after the DMU demonstration that ran from Huntersville to downtown Charlotte. The Huntersville Mayor and the county petitioned the FTA to bring that train here as part of a traveling FTA demonstration project using a European built DMU passenger train. When the rather expensive tickets sold out and the train made that trip completely packed, to downtown it made a great statement on the potential of transit here. This was in the 1994-1996 time frame. I don't remember the exact year now even though I saw it first hand. This is when the modern rail movement started in Charlotte. The locals also didn't want to be bypassed by Raleigh which, at the time, appeared to be the first city in the state that was going to get a rail system. Quotes from Sue Myrick and Harvey Gantt on this subject will also confirm the city had no plans prior to this time.

You are correct!!! I remember this time quite well. However, 1984 was the year that a rail line from UNCC to downtown was first envisioned. This was no doubt in response to the newly opened MARTA line in Atlanta. DC's Metro was also relatively new back then. I am not 100% sure, but logic would indicate that Atlanta prompted Charlotte's first talks about rail in the early 80s. Again, you are correct about the fact that Charlotte did not actually have a plan for the NE corridor until the 90s when Raleigh started planning. However, the lack of an actual plan for the NE corridor before the 90s does not mean it was never envisioned.

At any rate, it is planned now and much anticipated I might add. It will also carry more passengers per mile than the current LYNX line. The problem is can it carry double the passengers per mile? If it doesn't (being that it is double the cost of the south corridor it needs to have double the riders) the feds might give this the thumbs down. One thing that plays in Mecklenburg's favor is this county voted for the winners (Perdue and Obama). Regardless of one's political views, you always want to be the county that voted in the winner LOL!!! Two liberals that Meck voted in could mean more transit dollars for CATS. The record ridership for CATS coupled with the success of the LYNX makes approval for transit dollars much easier for Meck this time around than the first time.

Edited January 28, 2009 by urban980