Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[queensguy06]

There is something wrong with the process where Myrick puts the CATS earmark on the plate only to vote against it.

That seems to be quite a common practice these days. Last weekend on Meet the Press Lindsay Graham was on his soap box preaching about earmark reform and how the president should veto the omnibus spending bill, and that he would vote against it without reform, etc., etc. And then he was reminded of his own 37 earmarks put into the bill including $950,000 for the Myrtle Beach Convention Center. He finally came right out and said, "I voted to take all earmarks out, but I will come back in the new process and put that back in."

Getting back on topic, was the $20.5 million the only appropriation made for CATS out of this bill? Also, is there a website I can find exactly what all the earmarks put in the bill are and who they are being appropriated to?

[grodney]

I apparently don't quite have the google fu to find this answer myself: Is it a lot cheaper to run single-car instead of two-car? Is it half the price?

I ask because (at least last Friday anyway) they were running single-car units in the middle of the day, with 15 minute gaps. This gets fairly irritating around 2:30pm when you have to jam in like sardines. They were actually "coupling up" two different single-cars into double-cars at the 485 station when we got down there. But they should have done it a lot sooner. Are they saving that much money running single-car?

[dubone]

I went to the art in transit meeting. In short, UNCC does not want a signature station for their campus, except they will force CATS to use their campus design patterns, including the use of their brick facades. They will also pick different artists for the BLE, meaning some common art themes in the South will not likely be continued in the NE, including the leaf-street grids.

But if they can keep their full 1% budget there are lots of opportunities for good public art along this line.

[Spartan]

Its good to get some variety, but I really like the leaf/map things.

[monsoon]

I am more than fine with UNCC's decision to do this. I too wish there was more variety to the CATS stations including the building of platforms that are more people friendly. More seating, better protection from the elements, human sized art, etc. I find it ironic that CATS finds it necessary to build large art structures that are meant to be viewed from the automobile.

[voyager12]

The gates at Tremont&Camden were malfunctioning this AM. Rising up and down while a train was rapidly approaching. Motorists ahead of me got confused and a few decided to beat the train. Not good.

[monsoon]

Phoenix just opened it's new LRT in January. I might be wrong, but I believe it is the first new system to open in the USA after the Charlotte Lynx LRT. As couple of points of comparison, they are running around a daily ridership of 35,277 (more in line with Minneapolis) and a Sunday ridership of 30,000 or so. In looking at the system, it appears they did not do as Charlotte did and shorten the platforms so that only two trains can be accommodated. They are running the more standard 3 EMU trainset. They run trains at 10 minute intervals during the day, 20 minutes at night, and 15 minutes on the weekend. Obviously much better than the very long 30+ minute wait that one finds on Lynx. They are building a special people mover train to connect from their airport to one of the LRT stations. They have had trouble with their ticketing machines, but it has more to do with the smart card system they implemented.

It should also be noted that Phoenix has had a completely unsustainable economy built on the real estate market and they are in disaster mode now. I'm not sure if they will be able to continue to expand this sytem.

Photo of Phoenix trainset. These vehicles were built by Kinki Sharyo which I believe also bid on providing the vehicles for LYNX.

--------------------------------------------------

Speaking of the ticket machine vendor for LYNX, I ran across this video. It's amazing they think Windows XP is suitable for a device such as this. Value engineering at its finest.

[New Name]

^Thanks for posting this. I've been watching Phoenix, Seattle and Norfolk's LTR progress, and really have had a hard time finding info about their successes and hurdles. Do you know if they have reports of train/car collisions, surprising ridership, missed opportunities,etc? Good grades or otherwise?

[queensguy06]

^Thanks for posting this. I've been watching Phoenix, Seattle and Norfolk's LTR progress, and really have had a hard time finding info about their successes and hurdles. Do you know if they have reports of train/car collisions, surprising ridership, missed opportunities,etc? Good grades or otherwise?

I too have been watching Phoenix and their new light rail system. My cousin lives out there and he has given me good info about the system. to answer a few questions....

Train/car collision has happened at least once that I know of. The ridership numbers where estimated at 26,000/day and averages 35,600/day currently. The last note I have ties in with what monsoon hit on for a second about planned extension vs. money available. They already have a city plan for extensions to the new LRT, much like Charlotte does. However, from what my cousin tells me is that the city of Phoenix is so broke from the housing meltdown there that it is virtually impossible for any of the extension to happen for decades.

[uptownliving]

They run trains at 10 minute intervals during the day, 20 minutes at night, and 15 minutes on the weekend. Obviously much better than the very long 30+ minute wait that one finds on Lynx.

LOL the only time you wait more than 30 minutes for a LYNX train is if you miss the 1am train and have to wait til 5am for the system to start back up.

I do like the more standardized schedule they have compared to LYNX...makes it easier to remember when the trains are coming...however here are some more points of comparison between the systems.

Phoenix Last Train is at 11pm

LYNX Last Train is at 1am

Phoenix LRT Cost: $1.4 Billion

LYNX LRT Cost $ 467 Million

Phoenix Length of Line: 20 miles

LYNX Length of Line: 10 miles

Phoenix Avg Speed: 17 mph

LYNX Avg Speed: 25 mph

[tozmervo]

LOL the only time you wait more than 30 minutes for a LYNX train is if you miss the 1am train and have to wait til 5am for the system to start back up.

That's not quite true. After midnight weekdays, before7/after 11 saturdays and before 830/after 7 on sundays there's a half hour wait.

Anyway, all those stats mentioned above would put Phoenix ridership at approx 1764 riders per mile. Based on January ridership (I can't find February), LYNX had approx 1451 per mile. That's assuming the Phoenix numbers are appropriate for apples-apples comparison. It can't hurt to also point out that Phoenix city/metro is roughly twice the size of Charlotte.

I do like that they went with the three car length platforms. Their rush hour capacity won't be hampered over time, and I expect we could see their ridership soar as months go on.

For the time being, I am content that CATS moved to all two-car trains at 10 minute intervals during rush hour. Those single-car trains were a pox on the system.

[grodney]

That's not quite true. After midnight weekdays, before7/after 11 saturdays and before 830/after 7 on sundays there's a half hour wait.

I think the argument was the state/claimed "30+" (note the plus) and the "more than" 30 minutes.

Those single-car trains were a pox on the system.

They still are, as the single-car trains are quite crowded mid-day, and especially early afternoon Friday.

[uptownliving]

That's not quite true. After midnight weekdays, before7/after 11 saturdays and before 830/after 7 on sundays there's a half hour wait.

As grodney pointed out I was talking about "more than" 30 minute waits.

I guess the real question is should LYNX adopt the more standard schedule of having the trains come by evey 10 mins during daylight hours, instead of just during the rush...Or is that much frequency warranted in Charlotte?

[monsoon]

......Or is that much frequency warranted in Charlotte?

Yes, which was the point of my post. If people have to wait too long, people won't use it unless there is some mitigating reason such as they don't have any other means, or the pain of waiting outweighs the free parking at the park & ride lots. People won't ride inconvenient transit if the automobile provides a reasonable alternative, which it does in Charlotte.

Lynx lead times are currently unacceptable and they have been heading in the wrong direction. There is no way they can continue to justify spending billions in additional capital investments for more transit lines while at the same time they run trains with reduced schedules. It's a recipe for going down, not up.

The reason that CATS isn't doing this, is because their costs are too high and they lose money by increasing ridership.

[uptownliving]

Lynx lead times are currently unacceptable and they have been heading in the wrong direction. There is no way they can continue to justify spending billions in additional capital investments for more transit lines while at the same time they run trains with reduced schedules. It's a recipe for going down, not up.

It would take about $1.5 M per year to bump the frequency up to 10 min from 7am-7pm. So where do you get the money from to increase the frequency to 10 min all day long.

Which bus routes do you cut?

Which jobs get elmininated?

Whose salary gets cut?

What capital projects do you delay?

And so the question has to be asked...could that $1M be spent elsewhere and generate more riders?

[grodney]

It would take about $1.5 M per year to bump the frequency up to 10 min from 7am-7pm.

I don't doubt that you've done the math on this, but that number (1.5 M) seems staggering. Can you show how you got there?

[monsoon]

^If those numbers are correct, it only further proves my point. You don't build billion dollar transit systems that you can't afford to operate. While this might not sound good to people who support more train building, those are the cold facts. They will never justify any increases to the system if they can't at least operate the one they have to design specifications. Cut back on service and that is plan to reduce ridership.

Something is terribly wrong with CATS planning if those are CATS choices. I would say they should have stuck with buses.

[uptownliving]

I don't doubt that you've done the math on this, but that number (1.5 M) seems staggering. Can you show how you got there?

Sure.

Annual Operating Cost for LYNX in FY 2009 is very close to $10M

On a workday there are 86 runs... To bump the frequency up to 10 min between 7am and 7pm you have to add 14 runs from the current schedule.

14/86 = 0.16 x $10M gets you $1.6M which I rounded down to $1.5M since this is an estimate anyways.

The point I am making is that to increase the frequency on the LYNX you have to cut service somewhere else within CATS.

What has to be justified is spending $1.5M per year to bump frequency from 15 min to 10 min. Would the increase in ridership justify spending the money?

[uptownliving]

Something is terribly wrong with CATS planning if those are CATS choices. I would say they should have stuck with buses.

Hello, earth to monsoon. We are in a recession. CATS farebox revenue is the only thing that went up this year. Local Sales Tax and State Operating Assistance are well below budget.

CATS isnt making these cuts because they want to...they are making them because they have to.

Something they are going to start doing is increase their operating budget rainy day account...so that for the next recession they won't have to make as many reductions.

[ChiefJoJo]

BTW, Phoenix Valley Metro is not an EMU, but an LRT system. EMU's cannot run on the street. FYI.

[grodney]

Annual Operating Cost for LYNX in FY 2009 is very close to $10M

On a workday there are 86 runs... To bump the frequency up to 10 min between 7am and 7pm you have to add 14 runs from the current schedule.

14/86 = 0.16 x $10M gets you $1.6M which I rounded down to $1.5M since this is an estimate anyways.

Okay, thanks. I doubt that the increase in cost is a linear extrapolation of current operating costs, but I don't know anything about this, so I could obviously be wrong pretty easily.

[monsoon]

Hello, earth to monsoon. We are in a recession. ...

Your pointless sarcasm does not detract from the fact that you continue to miss the point of my post. In a recession a transit system is supposed to carry "more people" since driving is expensive. That is unless you are saying that Charlotte is losing population. It also ignores the fact the heaviest used transit systems in the world are also on the poorest places. You can make the argument all day long the opposite is true for Charlotte, you can continue to make fun of me for bringing it up, but it won't change the fact that when CATS goes to the state or the federal government, it will not be able to use these excuses for reducing service while, at the same time, asking for billions to continue to build on this system.

[staffer]

Your pointless sarcasm does not detract from the fact that you continue to miss the point of my post. In a recession a transit system is supposed to carry "more people" since driving is expensive. That is unless you are saying that Charlotte is losing population. It also ignores the fact the heaviest used transit systems in the world are also on the poorest places. You can make the argument all day long the opposite is true for Charlotte, you can continue to make fun of me for bringing it up, but it won't change the fact that when CATS goes to the state or the federal government, it will not be able to use these excuses for reducing service while, at the same time, asking for billions to continue to build on this system.

Every system in the country is reducing service. Does this mean Congress will abolish transit grants? No.

[monsoon]

Every system in the country is reducing service. Does this mean Congress will abolish transit grants? No.

Not that I can see where there is a comprehensive transit and urban development policy. Can you quantify your statement? I just posted about a system above that has better lead times than Charlotte. Also how did you get the idea that Congress should abolish grants? Congress would be remiss to parcel out transit dollars to transit agencies and cities that have not figured out how to build an alternative transit system. That includes adopting development policies that might actually put some people on the trains they want to build. Save the money for the places that do get it.

[uptownliving]

In a recession a transit system is supposed to carry "more people" since driving is expensive. That is unless you are saying that Charlotte is losing population.

When you look at the entire CATS Transit system ridership is up compared to 2008.

Ridership is down on the LYNX line which serves uptown...which is as a financial jobs hub that has seen layoffs. People will stop riding the train everyday after they get laid off...unless you want to make the argument that people continue to go to their jobsite after getting laid off.