Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[uptownliving]

I just posted about a system above that has better lead times than Charlotte.

Yeah but what you left out is that the same day the LRT opened in Phoenix they made service cuts to the bus system...And now ,surprise surprise, they are recommending a fare increase....and are saying further service cuts could be coming in July.

Transit systems across the country are having to adjust to the new economic reality. Service reducations are a part of that...along with delayed capital projects.

http://www.valleymetro.org/bus/servicecuts

[tozmervo]

$1.12 Billion. That's the staggering new cost estimate for the BLE. That's north of $100 million per mile. OY

[Niner National]

that's a ridiculous sum to spend. I really doubt it happens.

[dubone]

They are such idiots! I knew when they started adding all of those grade separations that the cost was going to go up even more.

That is a huge shame as far it being built imminently, but perhaps with a changes in federal transit policies, this will still end up being approved.

[tozmervo]

It seems like so many of the crossings would benefit/involve the NCRR and Norfolk Southern that they could pull some funding from those entities.

[Neo]

I am very 'for' this line since I would be able to directly utilize it, but the price tag is hard to swallow. I still have high hopes for it being built, but with a cost of $1.12B I just don't see how it will get built. That is a staggering amount of money, particularly in this economy. There have to be ways to trim the cost of this line without affecting ridership and function.

So my question is, now that Tober is out of the picture, who will be blamed for the high cost this time? I imagine if Tober was still in charge there would be folks calling for his job over the high price tag.

[monsoon]

$1.12 Billion. That's the staggering new cost estimate for the BLE. That's north of $100 million per mile. OY

So far, perfect score in my predictions. I said 2 years ago their 2030 plan estimate was too low at $750M that it would be over a $Billion. My next prediction is that once the engineering work is done, they will have doubled the price to $1.5B.

Also, it has become painfully obvious the reason they won't build the North Line, and they can raise the money if they wanted to, is they know that if they do, there is no way the LRT extension will happen anytime soon. This is why CATS won't recommend the North line even though it is ready to go. Why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs by building a much less expensive rail project? There are going to be some politics on this.

[ChiefJoJo]

It seems like so many of the crossings would benefit/involve the NCRR and Norfolk Southern that they could pull some funding from those entities.

I bet they have CATS over a barrel. Anytime you put a transit line into a RR corridor, railroads have ALL the power & extract all manner of concessions to suit their needs, and then some. I bet CATS has to pay, not only for their own grade separations, but also for the NCRR tracks as well. Remember that this is corridor is owned by NCRR and is a major strategic asset of the SEHSR and the NS mainline (who pays NCRR to operate on the tracks), so it is very heavily used, and freight and passenger rail traffic will only go up from here, especially once SEHSR is up & running possibly in the next decade.

CATS wants to wait to decide what to do because they believe that even though the price tag could be $1.1B, the feds & state might still fund it (partially due to connecting with the south line), possibly leaving the local portion at 25% of $1.1B. The ability to potentially leverage state and federal funds could give the BLE more bang for the buck, whereas the North Line seems to have less local support (Huntersville?), probably does not have the ability to leverage non-local money, and will not carry as many riders as the BLE. So it's not as simple as saying the BLE costs 3x the North Line... it would be wise to consider the above as well as community/land use benefits.

Monsoon is right that there will be a lot of political horsetrading...

[monsoon]

Huntersville, Cornelius, and Davidson all support the North Commuter rail line. What they don't support is CATS trying to impose new taxes solely on these towns for the rail line. They will point out that their residents already pay the transit tax and get very little for it. CATS is doing this because they can't contain their costs. They are supposed to be impartial as it is the MTC that sets policy, but it is obvious they want to build the LRT to UNCC because it means they can increase their organization substantially.

CATS is still trying to setup the straw man argument that these towns must come up with funding (outside the 2030 plan). If not then well...... its their fault the line won't be built. i.e. Straw man is burnt. It's a strategy that often gets repeated by the media without question, and unfortunately even by formers here.

Case in point, they know that in these new economic times, that TIF funding is dead. So now it is being suggested that residents in these areas be forced to pay $30/year for each car they own. This is a bone head suggestion that everyone knows will never see the light of day. However it is a perfect vehicle to make the point that these towns somehow don't support transit.

[tozmervo]

I bet they have CATS over a barrel. Anytime you put a transit line into a RR corridor, railroads have ALL the power & extract all manner of concessions to suit their needs, and then some. I bet CATS has to pay, not only for their own grade separations, but also for the NCRR tracks as well. Remember that this is corridor is owned by NCRR and is a major strategic asset of the SEHSR and the NS mainline (who pays NCRR to operate on the tracks), so it is very heavily used, and freight and passenger rail traffic will only go up from here, especially once SEHSR is up & running possibly in the next decade.

I guess that's what I'm curious about - isn't it in their best interest to have the corridor grade separated? It would allow them to move more freight and more passengers faster and more safely.

[New Name]

From what I heard, NCRR is paying for the grade separation at Sugar Creek, and CATS is playing for the grade separation at 36th. Those are the two major ones - right? Other than several flyovers, and the tunnel section entering UNCC - I wonder if they will/can make some concessions in design to save money.

[uptownliving]

Maybe NCDOT could delay the $130M widening of I-77 in North Meck and divert that money to the North Commuter Line.

[Windsurfer]

From what I heard, NCRR is paying for the grade separation at Sugar Creek, and CATS is playing for the grade separation at 36th. Those are the two major ones - right? Other than several flyovers, and the tunnel section entering UNCC - I wonder if they will/can make some concessions in design to save money.

Monorail's looking better and better....

[orulz]

Monorail's looking better and better....

Right! Because paying for a line that's 100% grade separated and uses heaps of proprietary technology will be way cheaper and better than paying for a couple of grade separations.

[Windsurfer]

Right! Because paying for a line that's 100% grade separated and uses heaps of proprietary technology will be way cheaper and better than paying for a couple of grade separations.

As Tozmervo points out, the cost is now "north of 100 million per mile" for Lynx. A cursory search on google brings up world-wide costs of monorails. The highest per mile I can find is the one in Las Vegas which negotiates very dense buildings. People are upset that that one is costing around 87 million per mile.

Interesting study going on in Austin where people are divided between monorail and light rail : http://bicycleaustin.info/rail/monorail.html

One thing that tips the scales in favor of mono rail in this comparison is that a lot of our stations for light rail ARE elevated.

Edited April 24, 2009 by Windsurfer

[AuLukey]

You know. while monorail is pretty much a joke, this point is worth mentioning as it technically could be cheaper. On the same token though, it wouldn't be extending the network of the blue line, and thus, would take away from its convenience. I wonder if this will again get mentioned by the media as an alternative to LRT now that the cost per mile has skyrocketed.

And on the note of the North line vs the NE line, if the cost is three times as much, yet the ridership will be around three times as much as well, I can't really see a complaint. On a per-rider basis, either project is about the same. I honestly see there being more conflicts in the future with the commuter rail using those tracks with the other train operations while the LRT wouldn't have these potential future problems. That and you can also use the whole eco-friendliness argument as well. If either line were already built today, I would much rather see the NE line up as it would directly benefit me, but by the time this is built, I don't see either line being of a whole lot of benefit unless I didn't want to drive from uptown to NoDa or University for something. I can't remember the last time I drove up to Huntersville or Davidson. But, that is just me, not making an argument based on my needs alone.

[tozmervo]

I honestly see there being more conflicts in the future with the commuter rail using those tracks with the other train operations while the LRT wouldn't have these potential future problems.

Similarly, I think the BLE will only get harder and more complex to build as time goes on and the city continues to change. The tracks for the commuter rail ain't goin anywhere.

[monsoon]

... I honestly see there being more conflicts in the future with the commuter rail using those tracks with the other train operations while the LRT wouldn't have these potential future problems. .....

This track is basically unused. NS periodically runs a locomotive down it so that it can't be deemed "abandoned" and occasionally the steel mill off Harris Blvd will use it to bring in scrap metal. Beyond that, there are never any trains on these rails. It is perfect for conversion to commuter rail and the towns have already seen fit to upgrade a number of the crossings when there is road work with this in mind. I've also seen the NCDOT, oddly enough, run the Piedmont down this track. I am not sure why, as it does not go anywhere useful to their current operations, but the train is unmistakable.

The problem the LRT extension is that it is attempting to be a CR line for 70% of it's route. LRT technology is simply too expensive for that. CATS, as I have said before, should abandon the current plan and instead extend the current LRT thru Noda and call it quits there. Then they should use the existing NCRR rail line for CR service connecting Kannapolis, Concord, UNCC and I485 to downtown.. Would be much cheaper that way. Will this happen? NO. And that is because rail is not being built to serve a rational purpose in Mecklenburg. This is why we have these irrational plans that will end up failing because of expense and nobody can say what we really get for spending the money.

[sax184]

Right! Because paying for a line that's 100% grade separated and uses heaps of proprietary technology will be way cheaper and better than paying for a couple of grade separations.

Not to mention forcing a transfer and a switch of technology instead of having through trips from the other side of downtown to the arenas and south end.

[southslider]

And the NCRR tracks don't touch UNCC.

[monsoon]

And the NCRR tracks don't touch UNCC.

And your point is?

[InitialD]

I've also seen the NCDOT, oddly enough, run the Piedmont down this track. I am not sure why, as it does not go anywhere useful to their current operations, but the train is unmistakable.

So have I, along Graham St near I-85. I pictured it in CATS colors and nearly wet myself

[southslider]

Without UNCC, there goes your ridership.

[staffer]

And the NCRR tracks don't touch UNCC.

well, actually, they are just across UC Blvd from campus at John Kirk Rd (used to be Old Concord)

[southslider]

Technically true, but on the far edge of campus, far from any academic halls. Such distance would be like saying CPCC in Midtown is served by the CTC and 7th Street stations.