Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[New Name]

Sounds like the reply I got after a Sunday afternoon single train was so jam packed full that my wife and I couldn't get on (30 minute headways). The reply was something like this:

"We won't refund your ticket because we expect the trains to be full. If you buy a ticket and choose not to get onto the train, it's your choice. Go F yourself." (okay maybe I made up that last part).

From Day 1, I've been freezing on the train. Especially on the 6:30 and 6:40 inbound. Today it was 59 degrees outside, and it was colder than that on the train. LITERALLY. They're too cold in the summer, and too cold in the winter. Mostly in the mornings.

I wrote today and "suggested" they make the trains less cold. I pointed out they are wasting money using all that electricity to cool the trains.

Here is the reply, which I find comically sad:

"

I received your inquiry about the trains being cold.

The air conditioning and heating on the trains are set from the manufacturer at a certain setting and unfortunately we cannot raise or lower the settings.

We are sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.

"

Really? REALLY? You can't control the heating/cooling on your own train?

[Joeman]

Does anyone have photos of the developments along the Blue line before and after style? Or better yet, a video? I recently moved from Tampa and we are voting on a penny tax this November. It would be helpful in the "comments war"on each article to show Charlotte's progress since we are pretty similar in size and density.

--Joey

[kickazzz2000]

Does anyone have photos of the developments along the Blue line before and after style? Or better yet, a video? I recently moved from Tampa and we are voting on a penny tax this November. It would be helpful in the "comments war"on each article to show Charlotte's progress since we are pretty similar in size and density.

--Joey

Gov. Christie just killed the tunnel project in NJ/NY....a lot of federal money was allocated to this project that will need to be sent elsewhere. I wonder if this can speed up projects in Charlotte.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/nyregion/08tunnel.html?hp

[Spartan]

Search for the South End Developments thread. That more or less sums up all of the development along the South Corridor thus far (both planned and built).

[kermit]

File under poorly-informed rant driven by frustration about our lost momentum:

The TIGER II grant proposal to extend the blue line up to 9th street really disturbed me -- $25 million to build rail two blocks appeared (to my untrained eyes) to be absurd. What is it that is so expensive to build rail on existing ROW, over flat ground without any heavy engineering? Gezzus, we have been building railroads since the mid-19th century, the rail bed technology has not radically changed in that time. Why is this so expensive???

The lynx route out to 36th street appears to be about 3 miles, it mostly follows old ROW and does not appear to need any heavy engineering other than crossing the CSX. The NCDOT report on restoring service to the Piedmont Northern shows the cost of replacing mainline at roughly $1 million per mile, lets double that for quality / materials reasons and then double it again for two tracks -- $4 million per mile. This gets us to $12 million to lay tracks (not including a bridge over CSX, crossing protections, cantenary, crossovers or stations) out to 36th street.

Is there a reason why city / CATS crews cannot begin to lay tracks a small piece at a time? Didn't city crews lay the streetcar track along Elizabeth? Can CATS not purchase materials from existing capital funds? Could the city not provide a road work crew on an in-kind basis for piece-by piece construction? I am not necessarily proposing that we take a DIY approach to the whole extension, just that we extend some effort locally to minimize costs and get the community thinking about (and seeing) the befits of expansion. This may have the fringe benefit of allowing us to make a more compelling case for state and federal matches.

Piedmont Northern rebuilding cost report: http://www.bytrain.o...ort_15Jan08.pdf

Edit: Perhaps the city could request that the future owner of the NS intermodal yards purchase rail for that stretch of track just as Crossland did on Elizabeth (back in the pre-implosion days)

Edited November 11, 2010 by kermit

[New Name]

I'm right there with you on this.

And to fuel your fire: Besancon, France building a tramway for aprox. $35M per mile.

Edit: THIS INCLUDES ROW ACQUISITION! Something BLE doesn't have to think about until after 36th St.

File under poorly-informed rant driven by frustration about our lost momentum:

The TIGER II grant proposal to extend the blue line up to 9th street really disturbed me -- $25 million to build rail two blocks appeared (to my untrained eyes) to be absurd. What is it that is so expensive to build rail on existing ROW, over flat ground without any heavy engineering? Gezzus, we have been building railroads since the mid-19th century, the rail bed technology has not radically changed in that time. Why is this so expensive???

The lynx route out to 36th street appears to be about 3 miles, it mostly follows old ROW and does not appear to need any heavy engineering other than crossing the CSX. The NCDOT report on restoring service to the Piedmont Northern shows the cost of replacing mainline at roughly $1 million per mile, lets double that for quality / materials reasons and then double it again for two tracks -- $4 million per mile. This gets us to $12 million to lay tracks (not including a bridge over CSX, crossing protections, cantenary, crossovers or stations) out to 36th street.

Is there a reason why city / CATS crews cannot begin to lay tracks a small piece at a time? Didn't city crews lay the streetcar track along Elizabeth? Can CATS not purchase materials from existing capital funds? Could the city not provide a road work crew on an in-kind basis for piece-by piece construction? I am not necessarily proposing that we take a DIY approach to the whole extension, just that we extend some effort locally to minimize costs and get the community thinking about (and seeing) the befits of expansion. This may have the fringe benefit of allowing us to make a more compelling case for state and federal matches.

Piedmont Northern rebuilding cost report: http://www.bytrain.o...ort_15Jan08.pdf

Edit: Perhaps the city could request that the future owner of the NS intermodal yards purchase rail for that stretch of track just as Crossland did on Elizabeth (back in the pre-implosion days)

Edited November 11, 2010 by The Escapists

[Windsurfer]

I'm right there with you on this.

And to fuel your fire: Besancon, France building a tramway for aprox. $35M per mile.

Edit: THIS INCLUDES ROW ACQUISITION! Something BLE doesn't have to think about until after 36th St.

RE, Right-of-way,

Last time I mentioned monorail, I got jumped on as if I were promoting a stip mall or something, but having just returned from Las Vegas on business I can tell you it was impressive the way that system worked to transport conventioneers and public. The issue of right-of-way was just about absolved. Most of the supports for their monorail were nothing more than concrete columns that ran down the middle of streets and criss-crossed parking lots. As far as the stops, they were not unlike the Starmount stop. The monorails were packed, perhaps because of the convention. For the life of me, except for being 30 feet above I cannot see why it matters that we rode a monorail and not a light rail. The upsides are that no street traffic is delayed, no big battles re right-of-way, and for the passengers the comfort was not any different than light rail. As far as stops, some areas of the monorail in LV stop every block, others every other mile. There doesn't seem to be a big issue building stops. What am I missing?

[Sabaidee]

but monorail usually means ELEVATED structures and that add cost, much like the BLE having many bridges and overpass that added to its projected cost.

[tozmervo]

The monorail still has to pay for (or be gifted) ROW, easements and air rights.

[49er]

I've often thought the same about the cost of building rail in the 21st century. What jumps out at you is all of the items other than construction that really drive the price up.

Environmental impact studies, public meetings, planning, planning, and more planning. Seriously, when you see that $25 million has been awarded to do preliminary design on a project, if gives you an idea of how ridiculously expensive the whole process has begun. Same goes for highways.

[kermit]

I've often thought the same about the cost of building rail in the 21st century. What jumps out at you is all of the items other than construction that really drive the price up.

Environmental impact studies, public meetings, planning, planning, and more planning. Seriously, when you see that $25 million has been awarded to do preliminary design on a project, if gives you an idea of how ridiculously expensive the whole process has begun. Same goes for highways.

no doubt all the studies are expensive, but in the case of the blue line extension just about all of this is done already. I believe they have 65% of the engineering completed.

[Spartan]

File under poorly-informed rant driven by frustration about our lost momentum:

The TIGER II grant proposal to extend the blue line up to 9th street really disturbed me -- $25 million to build rail two blocks appeared (to my untrained eyes) to be absurd. What is it that is so expensive to build rail on existing ROW, over flat ground without any heavy engineering? Gezzus, we have been building railroads since the mid-19th century, the rail bed technology has not radically changed in that time. Why is this so expensive???

The lynx route out to 36th street appears to be about 3 miles, it mostly follows old ROW and does not appear to need any heavy engineering other than crossing the CSX. The NCDOT report on restoring service to the Piedmont Northern shows the cost of replacing mainline at roughly $1 million per mile, lets double that for quality / materials reasons and then double it again for two tracks -- $4 million per mile. This gets us to $12 million to lay tracks (not including a bridge over CSX, crossing protections, cantenary, crossovers or stations) out to 36th street.

Is there a reason why city / CATS crews cannot begin to lay tracks a small piece at a time? Didn't city crews lay the streetcar track along Elizabeth? Can CATS not purchase materials from existing capital funds? Could the city not provide a road work crew on an in-kind basis for piece-by piece construction? I am not necessarily proposing that we take a DIY approach to the whole extension, just that we extend some effort locally to minimize costs and get the community thinking about (and seeing) the befits of expansion. This may have the fringe benefit of allowing us to make a more compelling case for state and federal matches.

Piedmont Northern rebuilding cost report: http://www.bytrain.o...ort_15Jan08.pdf

Edit: Perhaps the city could request that the future owner of the NS intermodal yards purchase rail for that stretch of track just as Crossland did on Elizabeth (back in the pre-implosion days)

CATS has to rebuild the existing track and build another one next to it. They are doing this because of the Levine building that will be adjacent to the UNCC tower, facing the tracks. You can see this in the site plans.

[Spartan]

Monorail is a completely cost ineffective means of transportation. Unless you have a very linear layout of destinations and/or a very high source of tourism revenues to pay for it (like Las Vegas) then is not a practical solution to transportation needs.

[southslider]

CATS has to rebuild the existing track and build another one next to it. They are doing this because of the Levine building that will be adjacent to the UNCC tower, facing the tracks. You can see this in the site plans.

But if Levine can front the money for First Ward Park, why not BLE to 9th Street? Especially when it's Levine's plans that require rebuilding the track. And his development that benefits most from a station.

[Spartan]

Or more importantly, why doesn't he adjust his building so that the track doesn't have to be moved...

[kermit]

I'm right there with you on this.

And to fuel your fire: Besancon, France building a tramway for aprox. $35M per mile.

Edit: THIS INCLUDES ROW ACQUISITION! Something BLE doesn't have to think about until after 36th St.

To add more fuel to the fire it appears that the 1/2 mile of Elizabeth ave streetcar track was installed for $10 million per mile in conjunction with the street rebuild.

http://theoverheadwire.blogspot.com/2009/02/elizabeth-avenue.html

[Windsurfer]

Monorail is a completely cost ineffective means of transportation. Unless you have a very linear layout of destinations and/or a very high source of tourism revenues to pay for it (like Las Vegas) then is not a practical solution to transportation needs.

Any rail is linear. Our light rail is certainly not alterning its path any time soon.

As far as right-of-way, who here really believes monorails are just as obtrusive and/or invasive as ground rails that shut down traffic while they pass, isolate neighborhoods, and in general create hard-to-cross tracks? Height clearances? 30-40 feet? Come on, my warehouse is that high, and so what if air-rights have to be attained...would that be a problem?

You guys just have a bad taste in your mouth for Disney Land or something. Do you think the "L" in Chicago was a poor investment? In reality, a monorail is just an elevated lightrail. The columns in LV allowed traffic to flow unimpeded, pedestrians to walk underneath, and nobody ran the risk of stalling out at crossovers.

[southslider]

^The BLE already has elevated sections over CSX, AC&W, Old Concord Road, I-85 Connector, City Boulevard, and WT Harris. And that's with a price-tag of roughly $1 billion. I question how building more elevated track would actually be cheaper.

[CHARtoSF]

Monorail is a completely cost ineffective means of transportation. Unless you have a very linear layout of destinations and/or a very high source of tourism revenues to pay for it (like Las Vegas) then is not a practical solution to transportation needs.

Monorail can be effectively used in some cities. Sydney, Australia has one that spans miles in a big loop through there downtown along main roads, which is about 30 of 40 feet above everything. I traveled on it several times back in 2005 when I was there and I must say that it seemed very well planned and implemented. There were stops along the line that kind of curved into buildings that were really neat. Was always a lot of people on it when I was on it. It cost one fee and you get on and get off wherever you wanted to. I was impressed.

[mallguy]

Re: extending LYNX 2 blocks uptown- what is the point of just 2 blocks of track? Are people in Charlotte THAT paranoid (or lazy) about walking 2 blocks to catch the train?

Re: reactivating the Piedmont & Northern: didn't James B. Duke originally build the P&N? If private enterprise built the line originally, and as freight railroads (both Class 1s and shortlines) are doing just fine these days, why would tax dollars even be considered for rebuilding the line?

Projects like these could help cement an image of transit as wasteful.

Edited November 16, 2010 by mallguy

[tozmervo]

Re: extending LYNX 2 blocks uptown- what is the point of just 2 blocks of track? Are people in Charlotte THAT paranoid (or lazy) about walking 2 blocks to catch the train?

No. The point was to get a couple more blocks built that would otherwise be part of the full BLE buildout. It would also improve access to the blue line from first ward.

[southslider]

It would be nice if a short extension to 9th Street would also include sidepaths to 12th Street, so that Alpha Mill and nearby Optimist Park residents would be better connected to Uptown.

[Urbanity]

I'm wondering if there is any cost savings to be found (or already being calculated) in the reconfiguration of the North Tryon/University City Blvd intersections?

[New Name]

Please don't quote me on these numbers - but I believe the Art In Transit Program that pays for art/flare (such as the chocolate chip cookies on South Blvd) is supposed to be 2% of the overall budget. Assuming the budget was 1.2B - that's 24M on art/flare. I can't believe I'm saying this, but thats $24M that could find a better use. (::gulp:: I've sold out).

[dubone]

First off, it is selling out a bit. The art increases community affinity for the lines, which helps ridership. But also, don't forget, most of the art are slight improvements on things that would already have to be built, just in a more commietastic utilitarian form. On the blue line, examples of the art are the interesting fabric designs on the rail seats, mosaics on the station bases, etched glass at the stations, beautiful water fountains. So, I mean, that is probably the worst 1% (not 2%) to cut out.

Also, I'm pretty sure that since it is a city policy, it is just 1% of the LOCAL contribution to the budget. No where near the kind of savings you're thinking about.

Then look at the artists already selected for the BLE.

http://www.charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/planning/BLE/involvement/meetings/Documents/20100114AiTBLEMeettheArtistPubMtgBelmontRegionalRev01.pdf

http://www.charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/planning/BLE/involvement/meetings/Documents/20100119AiTBLEZone3UniversityHillsChurch.pdf

http://www.charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/planning/BLE/involvement/meetings/Documents/20100126AiTBLEMeettheArtistPubMtgSugawCreek.pdf