Five Points in Raleigh

[Jones_]

The pavement cut keeps the light at the intersection constantly tripped...the green for Glenwood only last like 5 seconds at all times of day. I am glad to see the City using the Stormwater fee money for actual projects, though I would prioritize daylighting streams like Pigeon House south of Peace, before enhancing a stream that really does not suffer much from urban runoff.

[yoga]

What is daylighting?

And thanks ChiefJoJo!

[ChiefJoJo]

What is daylighting?

Taking a segment of stream that is within a pipe and converting it to an open, natural channel. For years small streams were allowed to be piped so development could be built over or nearby... now, as stormwater runoff (water quality) and flooding continue to be problems we can't escape, this practice is often being reversed, as the benefits of having a healthy stream system are many. There is a growing segment of engineering mixed with biology that deals entirely with stream restoration.

[yoga]

Huh. I learn something everyday. Thanks!

[pack-man]

that is a pretty road through there, i'm excited to see the finished product

[Gard]

Another developer has bought into Five Points and plans to build even more stores & condos:

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/892748.html

At this rate we won't recognize the area in a matter of a couple years!

[RALNATIVE]

Another developer has bought into Five Points and plans to build even more stores & condos:

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/892748.html

At this rate we won't recognize the area in a matter of a couple years!

That's probably a good thing. Out of all of the areas in central Raleigh, I have always thought that Five Points and City Market have the greatest potential for true urban development relative to their sizes. It's time for these areas to become the destinations that they should be.

[RaleighRob]

Another developer has bought into Five Points and plans to build even more stores & condos:

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/892748.html

At this rate we won't recognize the area in a matter of a couple years!

Alot of the locals think of this "Hi-Park" area as somewhat separate from Five Points, but it is good to hear. The recent transformation of that shopping center has so far been pretty nice. If this development goes across the street, I can envision it as a little mini-urban hub for the area. They'll probably wanna add a stoplight with Pedestrian crossing (since the road is 4 lanes).

[Jones_]

^oh yeah, I lived in the area almost 5 years and its definitely not 5-points, but its good for the arching fabric from Hi Park to over by Evoo to be balanced and low to medium density properly urban in form. As a bit of a stretch, this population of upper class people is very influential in Raleigh and if they can be sold on/prefer properly formed urban development, then they likely will want to see the whole city form up in this way. The Saint Marys associates/York combo has of course brought us the St Marys townhomes on the western end of Hargett St as well. Those are turned away from the street though the materials are sturdy. I give them about a 7 to date as developers, but hope this new proposal will address the street better and integrate into teh neighborhood well...maybe push them up to an 8 or 9.

[ChiefJoJo]

I'm not seeing where this is located. Here's a google map of the area. The article says off Whitaker Mill, east of Bernard St.

[ncwebguy]

Does anyone know if these condos/townhouses will be for "active" baby boomers with proximity to the city's senior center next door on Whittaker Mill and a short ride to downtown? Or are they for "urban youth" who can't afford downtown just yet?

I have a feeling it will be the former. I hope the latter "discovers" the neighborhood east of downtown if that is what they are looking for.

Does the surrounding neighborhood have a small area plan or overlay district? I wonder if SCALE will get active there, or leave them to fend for themselves. The google map shows the land to the NE cleared off Noble Road that used to be the small apartments and is now high end single family homes.

That neighborhood could appreciate quickly once the new project comes online. It looks like it could be a walkable, corporate/sanitized version of Five Points, with CVS, Starbucks, and Pizza Hut replacing Hayes-Barton Pharmacy, Third Place, and Lilly's, which would be attractive to the aging boomer population.

It would be cool if there was another Bloomsbury Bistro, Stingray, Evoo, etc. but I could see that starting to spring up closer to Wake Forest Road by the Snoopy's, Northside Billiards, Dancing Moon, etc. than in this space.

EDIT: It is a bit of a stretch, but if urban development starts here, it could start movement eastward and justify a train stop near Wake Forest/Whittaker Mill/Atlantic Ave. If the first leg (championed by one Smedes York...) goes from downtown to Wake Forest, this could be a potential stop in the middle of a lot of easily-redevlopeable warehouse space! Wow.

Edited January 21, 2008 by ncwebguy

[Jones_]

Oh man....I think I know where it is....this project has been talked about already and I think the article incorrectly said east of Bernard when it should be that parking lot behind the Mercedes repair shop west of Bernard. If thats the case there won't even be any tear downs unless they bought some of the 700 sqft 1950's cape cods farther north on Bernard.

The trend in this area so far has mostly been renovation and not tear down with two old aprtment buildings south of Whitaker being tutned into condos, and Northside apartments being turned into condos too, not to mention the fixing up of the shopping center. The only large scale tear down was for the St Marys Associates developed townhomes north of the shopping center and some individual tear downs south of Whitaker along Center St and others.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Jones133

[DPK]

Oh man....I think I know where it is....this project has been talked about already and I think the article incorrectly said east of Bernard when it should be that parking lot behind the Mercedes repair shop west of Bernard. If thats the case there won't even be any tear downs unless they bought some of the 700 sqft 1950's cape cods farther north on Bernard.

You are correct. The article should have said to the west of Bernard:

http://imaps.co.wake.nc.us/imaps/main.htm?...;pin=1704992012

They also bought the adjacent lot that is vacant to the north. Basically all of the property from Whitaker Mill north until the first house on Bernard. Also as others have said, this really isn't Five Points, more like an adjacent neighborhood. I limit my description of Five Points to the area in the immediate vicinity of the "points".

Edited January 22, 2008 by DPK

[RaleighRob]

Also as others have said, this really isn't Five Points, more like an adjacent neighborhood. I limit my description of Five Points to the area in the immediate vicinity of the "points".

Right. Earlier I said it was High Park, but that's just the shopping center's name. The neighborhood itself, I believe is actually called Hi-Mount.

Basically, where Whitaker makes that sharp right turn at Pine Drive, and becomes four-lanes, you're in Hi-Mount and out of Five Points.

Edited January 22, 2008 by RaleighRob

[DPK]

Right. Earlier I said it was High Park, but that's just the shopping center's name. The neighborhood itself, I believe is actually called Hi-Mount.

Basically, where Whitaker makes that sharp right turn at Pine Drive, and becomes four-lanes, you're in Hi-Mount and out of Five Points.

Cool, never knew that. I wonder how it got that name, there's always a reason behind names.

[ncwebguy]

On Whitaker Mill (but closer to Five Points) a couple of houses/empty lots were turned into 3 or 4 townhouses that are perpendicular to the main street. And some townhouses on Wake Forest north of Whittaker Mill. And the handful of "out of character" houses mentioned south of Whitaker Mill.

This project is good redevelopment of an auto repair shop and surface parking. But if the Hi-Mount area takes off, anchored by this shopping center/condo development, the houses in the area roughly bounded by Mills, Wake Forest, McNeil, and Noble would be under some devlopment pressure.

It currently seems like a zero or one generation removed from working class kind of neighborhood. If teardowners around Anderson to the west feel there is a buck to be made here, then neighborhood character vs. property rights battle could be in play again.

[DPK]

Someone tear down AudioBuys. Please.

[bdp]

An apartment complex in this area has already been torn down, Whitaker Park, I think, on Pine Street... to make way for $700,000 + homes (The Oaks at Fallon Park)... so I'd say the neighborhood is pretty much in transition.

[ChiefJoJo]

An apartment complex in this area has already been torn down, Whitaker Park, I think, on Pine Street... to make way for $700,000 + homes (The Oaks at Fallon Park)... so I'd say the neighborhood is pretty much in transition.

Hey, welcome back bdp!

Someone tear down AudioBuys. Please.

[Subway Scoundrel]

I lived not to far from this area for a long time. I think one of the long term keys to this area is that the TTA plan at one time had a stop at Whitker Mill between Wake Forest and Atlantic. This would be the 5 points stop and especially these areas southeast of 5 points like this area. TTA looked at both this area/TTA stop and Highwoods for the next stop after the Governmental Stop downtown which was planned near WEST. I think there was n

Of course, Highwoods won for the number of workforce but that area around Wake Forest Road would be prime in 15 or so years with this area leading the growth The more dense building and yes, knockdowns, will create more density around the area between 5-points and Wake Forest Road. (Not to mention more late night eaters at Snoopys).

With this growth, the other side of the plan TTA stop/Atlantic Ave is prime (Peden Steel Plant) and if TTA ever used both tracks that crisscross in this area, it would be a major place to jump trains. (Go over the bridge on Atlantic near Watkins and look North and that would be the transit center). This whole area around this site going to Capital and the area along Wake Forest is prime for the next 20 years.

[Jones_]

^ I always envisioned the 4-lane Whitaker slying over the rail yard and conecting to Carbtree Blvd at Capital. map here

Then this prime area would be sort of plugged into the affluency of five points and you might see redevelopment of teh Wicker Dr area and the whole flank of Capital around the Dunkin Donuts etc.

[RaleighRob]

^ I always envisioned the 4-lane Whitaker slying over the rail yard and conecting to Crabtree Blvd at Capital.

That would be pretty cool and useful. Currently the city is talking about someday extending East Six Forks Rd from Atlantic Ave, crossing Crabtree Creek, and then merging it into Hodges (which would be upgraded) to then intersect with Capital. It would be pricey and the state has concerns about yet another crossing on Crabtree Creek.

Your idea of extending Whitaker instead would certainly be a better, more enviro-friendly, alternative. I think that big warehouse-like building at the Capital/Crabtree intersection is sitting empty anyways.

[Jones_]

^ I was told that is the last Peden Steel building.

[JeffC]

That would be pretty cool and useful. Currently the city is talking about someday extending East Six Forks Rd from Atlantic Ave, crossing Crabtree Creek, and then merging it into Hodges (which would be upgraded) to then intersect with Capital. It would be pricey and the state has concerns about yet another crossing on Crabtree Creek.

Your idea of extending Whitaker instead would certainly be a better, more enviro-friendly, alternative. I think that big warehouse-like building at the Capital/Crabtree intersection is sitting empty anyways.

The extension of Six Forks would indeed have major wetlands impacts, which may be why you don't hear much about it any more...

I sort of wonder why Whitaker Mill never was extended...is the place where it deadends into Atlantic (Peden Steel) the former site of Whitaker Mill? Are there any remnants of a mill there?

[Jones_]

The extension of Six Forks would indeed have major wetlands impacts, which may be why you don't hear much about it any more...

I sort of wonder why Whitaker Mill never was extended...is the place where it deadends into Atlantic (Peden Steel) the former site of Whitaker Mill? Are there any remnants of a mill there?

Peden Steel is actually where Crabtree Blvd deadends into Capital...1950's looking building set back a bit. The four lane part of Whitaker Mill Rd is not the historical portion but a road that was likely put in as part of High Park neighborhood. Original Whitaker Mill seems to be Noble Road (and a little piece of Pine realigned slightly). There are clear signs of an old house behind the old Oak City Diner..drive way....level site, untended shrubs...huge stumps. I read an article on Mike Legeros fire station history site about one of Mordecai decendants houses burning in the 1950's at the intersection of Whitaker Mill and Wake Forest Road...the fire engines could not respond because the water lines did not reach beyond the City limit...I believe this to be the home site mentioned...also, I am sure successive mills stood on the used car lot at the NE corner of Crabtree Creek and Wake Forest road...have seen pictures of the rickety bridge above the dam...also read about a Civil War powder mill at this site ...there are old bricks still in the stream below the modern bridge...the picture I saw from about 1900 showed a wooden mill with a rock dam and the caption said Whitaker Mill. As an aside this country mill road would have extended off a well traveled road through five-points pre-Glenwood. This busier road later became modern Lead Mine and eventually Leesville. A coworker of mine randomly said one day a friend of his off Jarvis Street in five points, had an old road bed in the woods behind his house. This corresponds to pre 1900 maps for its approximate location.