Five Points in Raleigh

[GradyWhite190]

Yes. CP&L owned the Glenwood Ave streetcar line and built Bloomsbury Park (now Carolina Country Club), which was known as the "Light Park" because it contained 8,000 light bulbs. It was the northern terminus of the streetcar line at the time the park opened in 1912. This was also the original home of the Pullen Park Carousel.

 

http://www.cmhpf.org/development%20of%20streetcar%20systems.htm

http://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/raleigh/pul.htm

 

Does anyone have any more information specifically about this "Old Hillsboro Road" between Oberlin Rd and St Marys Street?

[ctl]

http://www.trianglemodernisthouses.com/scott.htm confirms that Old Hillsboro Rd was renamed McDonald Ln. There's also a census record at http://www.ancestry.com/1940-census/usa/North-Carolina/A-T-White_5c40hj implying that the name change occurred after 1940. pdfhost.focus.nps.gov/docs/NRHP/Text/64500793.pdf‎ indicates the road existed in 1866. 

 

Here's my guess: Old Hillsborough Rd was probably the main horse & carriage road out of Raleigh to Durham and beyond prior to construction of the North Carolina Railroad, which naturally had to follow a smoother grade. A "new" Hillsborough was then extended parallel to the NCRR track, and that's what we know as Hillsborough St today. The original US 70 eventually followed the new Hillsborough out to Cary, then through Morrisville to Durham and the town of Hillsborough (parallel to the NCRR). The alignment of the old Hillsborough Road beyond Raleigh became the original NC 9, which farther north ran along Leesville Rd and then Angier Rd into Durham. And a "new" US 70 was eventually built between Raleigh and Durham, replacing the routing through Cary and Morrisville; in effect US 70 shifted from the "new" Hillsborough to a rebuilt Glenwood. 

Edited July 14, 2013 by ctl

[Jones_]

It's been a while since I read Elizabeth Reid Murray (volume 1) and also some of Sherman's accounts of fighting in Raleigh, but I believe there were at least three roads to Hillsborough (not all went the whole way, but merged back in, in places. First was lower Hillsborough...the one we know today and it stays on about the alignment we see today. The second was the "middle" hillsborough road that peeled off at current Meredith College and picks up again on Reedy Creek and on into Umstead. It merged back into the lower road (I think) in the vicinity of Durham. The "upper" Hillsborough Road is the one we are talking about now. The soil map filled in the gap for me from the Crabtree Mall area southward. The Bevers, 1871 map had shown me a rough scaled road that seems to enter the city grid near the NW corner and I had wondered if any of it still existed. Indeed I believe this is it. I found obvious old deep cut road bed off of Jarvis heading toward McDonald. (it is neat to me to look at that dirt and think men on horseback were chasing each other towards Durham in 1865....Wheeler is known to have retreated along all three routes) The rest of the alignment is yes, McDonald, Oberlin, Glenwood, Lead Mine, Town and Country (has a sweet old cemetery on it at the Lead Mine intersection), Millbrook,  and then Leesville where it gets lost in Durham. US 70 followed this alignment I know for sure, so I imagine when the Glenwood neighborhood was platted in 1907, this old Hillsborough Road became  a lesser used lane to the Oberlin community and the new Glenwood (called north Saunders before then) brought the traffic directly into the City...a mix of horse and car traffic at first of course. 

[Green_man]

Fairview Row:  The first building looks almost done and has apparently sold all 4 units.  There are signs on the construction fence that 2 units have been sold in each of the other 2 planned buildings.

[Jones_]

Fairview Row:  The first building looks almost done and has apparently sold all 4 units.  There are signs on the construction fence that 2 units have been sold in each of the other 2 planned buildings.

Its three stories tall....is there retail on the ground floor? (sorry if I missed that somewhere)

[Euphorius]

No retail. The first floor has 2 units, and the top 2 floors are full floor units that are around 4k sq ft. I'm guessing that the 2 units sold in each of the yet to be constructed buildings are the smaller, cheaper first floor units.

[Green_man]

In both of the yet-to-be-built buildings the top floor and one of the ground floor units are sold according to the sign on the construction fence.  I guess they couldn't convince one of the top floor buyers to shift to the 2nd floor so they could have another fully leased building.

 

I'm kinda curious if they will start construction of both at the same time or continue doing one at a time.

[Jones_]

No retail. The first floor has 2 units, and the top 2 floors are full floor units that are around 4k sq ft. I'm guessing that the 2 units sold in each of the yet to be constructed buildings are the smaller, cheaper first floor units.

Ah ok thanks. FIve Points is pretty hemmed in retail wise. I bet ground floor retail here would have filled up immediately, though I am not sure of what opposition there would have been or was to such an idea. This about the only spot in the whole city where buildings such as these can exist right next to retail in any case. I am both surprised, yet not really surprised at all, that the developer has sold most of them already. 

[Euphorius]

In both of the yet-to-be-built buildings the top floor and one of the ground floor units are sold according to the sign on the construction fence.  I guess they couldn't convince one of the top floor buyers to shift to the 2nd floor so they could have another fully leased building.

 

I'm kinda curious if they will start construction of both at the same time or continue doing one at a time.

I'm a little surprised by that. I didn't expect there to be much interest in huge $1.5 million condos in Five Points. I guess the fact that they are full floor units helped a lot. They won't have to worry about noisy neighbors, and will have windows on all four sides of the unit. I would have preferred the original condo building with ground floor retail, but I doubt RDC would've been able to pull that off even if the neighborhood hadn't went bonkers over that proposal. 

[Green_man]

Disclaimer:  expensive, pie-in-the-sky idea coming up:

 

Over the past few years, traffic at five points has been getting progressively heavy and will likely only continue to do so.  Not only this, but with the added traffic, the intersection seems to be getting quite a bit more dangerous as well.  Just about every time I'm at the intersection, someone doesn't understand who has the right-of-way which makes it a nightmare for cars, bikes, and pedestrians.

 

Now, it would be quite a bit of engineering, but I believe the long term solution is a Dupont Circle - style traffic circle.  Glenwood Ave would have thru traffic underneath while local traffic from Whitaker Mill, Fairview, Glenn Ave, as well as turning traffic from Glenwood would use a surface roundabout.

 

Glenwood has a slight uphill coming to the intersection from both directions.  So, seems somewhat possible to begin slightly ramping down around the Elementary School and around Lilly's.  And keep the surface roundabout at about the same elevation as the current intersection.  There are no buildings that would be impacted by the roundabout either since nothing is built all the wall to the intersection on the corners.

 

Glenwood is already the equivalent of 6 lanes wide through here, so enough room for 2 thru lanes each way plus the access roads each way up to the surface circle.  Street parking might be lost, but I'm sure there are other solutions for that.

[Jones_]

I will see your pie-in-the-sky idea and make the pie higher (you're welcome to those who get the reference). I like it, and think it makes sense. And the Whitaker-Fairview movement gets botched up every single light cycle. So frustrating. Anyway, I am making the pie higher by saying only one lane each way under neath is needed on Glenwood from Wade to north of St Marys since the traffic will not be stopping. Surface lanes along the same stretch will be fine as singles around the traffic circle and from glenwood to the tunnel re-emerging north of St Marys where Glenwood widens out and it can all smoothly come back together. This will have the tremendous effect of allowing parking along Glenwood through Five Points 100% of the time. I beleive property values would go up and commute times down. Win, win. 

Thanks for spurring the creative juice...

[staffer]

There used to be  traffic circle at Five Points http://localwiki.net/raleigh/Five_Points_Traffic_Circle

[Jones_]

Nice pic! There are also pics up at The Point

[Euphorius]

I love this idea! I've always thought a traffic circle makes more sense here than the intersection we have today.

[orulz]

A tunnel as far as St. Mary's is completely outrageous but one in the immediate vicinity of Five Points makes a small degree of sense. But it seems awfully expensive

From a purely traffic enigneering standpoint they would be more likely to de-five-points the intersection and turn it into a standard four leg intersection. After Capital is rebuilt removing the Fairview Road interchange, the only legs of the Five Points intersection that will really matter will be Whitaker Mill, the northwest Fariview leg, and the two legs of Glenwood. Perhaps the southeast leg of Fairview would be given a dogleg north through the former Piggly Wiggly parking lot so that it intersects with Whitaker Mill about 400 feet east of Glenwood. Glenn would probably be turned into a cul-de-sac.

Also, why is it called five points in the first place? Any kindergartener could tell you there are clearly six points at this intersection.

[Euphorius]

Also, why is it called five points in the first place? Any kindergartener could tell you there are clearly six points at this intersection.

I've always heard it is called that because it is where 5 neighborhoods meet. Those neighborhoods are Georgetown, Vanguard Park, Roanoke Park, Bloomsbury and Hayes Barton.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Euphorius

[NCMike1981]

It's called 5 points b/c 5 points sounds trendier than 6 points ;-p

[Green_man]

The more I think about it, the more reasonable a roundabout with a thru-traffic tunnel makes sense.  

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but is this section of Glenwood a state road?  If so, then maybe a portion of the funds for the tunnel could come from the DOT.  And then Raleigh would be required for any enhancements.  For reference, the Hillsborough - Pullen roundabout project was $9.9 million for the 8 block project.

 

To me, the most difficult part of a project like this would be the during construction phasing aspect. 

[Jones_]

A tunnel as far as St. Mary's is completely outrageous but one in the immediate vicinity of Five Points makes a small degree of sense. But it seems awfully expensive

 

You're right of course but....I'm making the pie higher here....anyway, my thought was the median disappears just before St Mary's so I was trying to clear that and open up as much dedicated street parking as possible on either side of the intersection along Glenwood. 

As a musing, I never could figure out why Whitaker Mill got oriented as the through movement and Fairview was sort of forgotten by being made one-way....it had the direct connection to Capital and both roads go through the same neighborhood.  

[orulz]

You're right of course but....I'm making the pie higher here....anyway, my thought was the median disappears just before St Mary's so I was trying to clear that and open up as much dedicated street parking as possible on either side of the intersection along Glenwood. 

As a musing, I never could figure out why Whitaker Mill got oriented as the through movement and Fairview was sort of forgotten by being made one-way....it had the direct connection to Capital and both roads go through the same neighborhood.

Probably because Fairview is a narrower residential street lined by SFHs, while Whitaker is a wider road with some commercial development.

[Jones_]

I think realtors market this as Five Points so I'm putting it here....there is a substantial [actual] infill development off Noble Road where the old bus parking lot used to be. It is fairly large row homes with a set of them facing Noble. Point for proper urban form. Could be between 50 and 75 total I'm guessing. I put the actual in brackets because the neighborhood across the street (Wayne, Pine etc) was market as infill when it in fact demolished more housing units than it created. NW ITB big money has crept east to a good degree now...

Edited July 2, 2014 by Jones_

[Green_man]

"The Grove at Fallon Park".  83 townhomes on 10 acres by M/I Homes. Here's their website for the development:  http://www.mihomes.com/FindYourHome/CommunityDetails.aspx?Community=275157000000

 

And here's the link for the site plan.

[Jones_]

"The Grove at Fallon Park".  83 townhomes on 10 acres by M/I Homes. Here's their website for the development:  http://www.mihomes.com/FindYourHome/CommunityDetails.aspx?Community=275157000000

 

And here's the link for the site plan.

Interesting....its a brownfield redevelopment...wonder what was/is onsite...

Edited July 2, 2014 by Jones_

[Spatula]

Looks rather bland. It's infill but it's a detraction with its stale birthday cake look.

 

Anyway, I really want to see the retail footprint of Five Points extended. That's the only kind of project I could get very excited about in the area.

[Jones_]

Looks rather bland. It's infill but it's a detraction with its stale birthday cake look.

 

Anyway, I really want to see the retail footprint of Five Points extended. That's the only kind of project I could get very excited about in the area.

Speaking of that, I was thinking the old First Citizens branch is a prime candidate for a tear down and rebuild of something...hopefully without razor blades for a sidewalk surface(always been afraid I'd have my one idiot slip and fall on that crazy sidewalk). I doubt the multi millionaire who lives behind it would allow anything too crazy to go there, but maybe a nice little set of brick store fronts similar to what was wedged in over at Fairview and Oberlin would be possible...