Extending Mass Transit Beyond Mecklenburg County

[orulz]

To me it would make more sense from a long-term, final build-out perspective if the NE corridor, rather than running onto UNCC's campus and then back out to N Tryon, ran through the campus for a final station near University City Boulevard and I-485. That way, it could connect to a future commuter station at the NCRR. Just a thought.

If I were going to plan a northeast commuter line, I would put stations at all the "downtowns" along the line:

Harrisburg, Concord, Kannapolis, North Kannapolis, Landis, and China Grove.

I don't know anything about the area, but Monsoon's suggested location for the final park-and-ride lot, about 1.5 miles north of China Grove, at the 601/29/I-85 intersection, and again at Rocky River Road, sounds fine to me. I also threw in another P&R station at Carolina Place mall & Northeast Medical Center near I-85.

I would also put in two stations for transfer to LRT, the above mentioned station near UNCC, plus another at NoDa/36th.

I would probably keep Salisbury and Spencer for a later phase.

Here is a map.

[grodney]

For reference when brainstorming, I measured the distance along the existing rail line from the Blue Line 485 Station down to Rock Hill.

1.7 miles - Blue Line 485 to Pineville Main St.

6.5 miles - Pineville Main St. to Fort Mill Hwy 160

4.5 miles - Fort Mill Hwy 160 to Rock Hill I-77

3.2 miles - Rock Hill I-77 to the center of Rock Hill where the line hits other railroads

[orulz]

I've pitched this same plan before except for instead of a station at Tyvola, I proposed it to be located at West Tyvola. This would be close to the office parks near the Old Coliseum, which would make it easy for CATS to serve commuters with several shuttle busses. If there needed to be another intermediary stop to coincide with LRT, I would think Archdale would be the better choice due to lighter traffic, and the adjacency between the rail tracks and LRT (at Tyvola they are ~1000 feet apart)

The only flaw in this plan is that there really is no room to widen the existing rail tracks so that it could be double tracked. A lot of property acquisition would be needed, and several bridges and underpasses widened. It would get pricey, though overall, I think it's a worthwhile idea, and should be the second Commuter Rail line to be added.

[monsoon]

NE Corridor light rail will run right through the UNC-C Campus. If the regular rail corridor was also used for commuter rail service North from Gateway Station to Concord, and there was a commuter rail stop at UNC-C the stop would likely be at 485, a good trek from campus.

[Andyc545]

This track passes right by UNCC (different location than the proposed LRT) If they put a station there it would be an easy walk to campus. I do agree they should have another one at 485.

No. Becasue there would be no more stops between UNCC and downtown and commuter rail does not run as frequently as LRT. LRT really does not serve commuters well as it is too slow and too many stops from the ends of the lines. I should imagine that initially it would be one way service. I see the two lines as complementing each other. People could conceivebly get on the train in Concord then choose to go downtown or get off at UNCC and proceed to the parts of the city served by the LRT.

[Joe the Photog]

I think you're exactly right, and actually that's what I was suggesting though I wasn't very clear on it before. There is indeed a rail line that branches west from South Blvd at Tyvola, passing near the Coliseum before turning east along Wilkinson towards Gateway Station on West Trade. That is definitely where any commuter trains from Fort Mill / Rock Hill should terminate. You can see this line on Google Maps.

[AuLukey]

I know I've brought it up the past, and it doesn't make financial sense to do so at this point, but it appears Concord is following the example of Rock Hill, or at least entertaining the idea.

According to a recent O article on the Bruton debacle, the city is planning on paying for his incentives with bonds. However, toward the end of the article, they bring up increasing their sales tax a la Mecklenburg which caught my eye.

"Local leaders like the idea of seeking a half-cent sales tax increase dedicated to transit and transportation issues. Money could be used for roads and extending Charlotte's light-rail line into the county, Padgett said."

I am still in support of extending the line into cabarrus in the future (in a later stage than the current blue line extension plan.) The rest of the article pertains to another thread, but I felt this was a bit of interesting information now that other towns are starting to realize the benefits behind this line.

[Neo]

I'm not sold on enough ridership from Cabarrus County to warrant an extension. Speedway Blvd. (excuse me, Bruton Smith Blvd.)/Concord Mills Blvd. is essentially an icon of what not to do with development. The section between 485 and the speedway is also nothing but existing/planned cul-de-sac subdivisions and has been noted before LMS is essentially dormant (yes, I know things go on there other than races, but honestly it is likely less than a Food Lion grocery store brings in each day) for most of the year.

There is currently a park and ride lot for the Concord Express bus at the corner of Speedway Blvd/Hwy 29 and I have noticed an increase in cars parked there but even then it adds a drop in the bucket to the total ridership numbers for the NE line. In fact, it would likely be a lot quicker to just drive to the proposed 485 station and take the train from there since there are only two stoplights (Morehead & 485) between LMS and the proposed 485 park and ride lot. I would much rather see $200 million go into a greatly expanded bus system for Cabarrus County rather than see it all spent on a measly NE LRT extension to LMS that would offer minimal ridership numbers at most.

[ChiefJoJo]

As others have said, I really don't see why LMS would be considered much of a draw for transit, and especially a robust/expensive service such as light rail... how many events are scheduled there per year... a handful? There's the mall and new conference center, but I don't know how you'd access them, and there's not a whole lot else besides uber-subruban strip development. LRT just doesn't fit nor is it cost effective. Long term, perhaps some type of commuter rail along the NCRR up to Kannapolis and Salisbury makes more sense to me. I say long term, because there are plans to widen 85 to 8 lanes all the way through Cabarrus, so transit will probably not be time-competitive in the near term.

The same could probably be said of a potential connection to Rock Hill... a commuter rail operation would be more cost effective than any type of LRT extension into SC.

I think Gastonia will have to make due with express or enhanced bus service for quite some time, since their are two major roadways that connect it to Charlotte.

Out of all the surrounding counties, unfortunately, Union is both the fastest growing and the most sprawled, and with the new 74 tollway and no signs of dense development on the horizon, it's difficult to imagine transit being workable there.

[monsoon]

We have several topics open in this subject. I posted this as the reason you will never see the LRT extended to LMS or Concord Mills (even more expensive)

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Light rail as implemented here in CLT simply does not have the bandwidth (capacity) to make any dent at all in a race event. At max capacity a station can only handle 3000 people/hour (one direction) and that is if they go to the 5 minute response time which they are not doing now. A race event can have upwards of 250,000 attending. 1.2% of this/hour isn't much.

But let's assume they decide to ignore this fact and build the line all the way to the Speedway anyway. If it adds $200M-$250M to the price of the line, and does not add at least another 6000 daily riders, it will most certainly cause the feds to reject funding for the entire line. Remember what I mentioned before, federal funding is based on the total cost of the line, not where the money is coming from. As far as the feds are concerned it won't matter if Concord or Smith kicks in money or not. If the cost goes up then ridership needs to go up too. This is why they are not building the phased line, it's why they canceled the earlier planned station on the other side of I-485, and why the line will not go to LMS.

Federal rules are written now as to not fund lines and so Tober, and I will give him credit for this, choose the only option that stands any chance of getting federal funds. That is a line that connects downtown to UNCC, nothing more nothing less. Anything else doesn't have enough ridership to justify the cost.

[RiverwoodCLT]

The only way I see it going to LMS is after the Blue Line is built and Concord, Cabarrus County and Smith put up all the money to built it out to LMS.

[dubone]

I think if the NE extension of the Lynx gets built as planned in the next 5 years, the speedway and Cabarrus WILL pay the money to extend it to LMS, even if it doesn't make perfect sense. Let's face it, though, that line is only 2 1/2 miles away from speedway, which would be a very reasonable extension considering Bruton Smith has already considered giving $50m to the cause (I recognize it might just be a false proposal, but it is still possible that it could work).

I do argue, however, that the light rail already does serve LMS because, again, 2.5 miles is not far for a circulator bus to run during races and is not much farther away than some parking lots. Speaking of those parking lots, that might be a very solid reason to extend the Lynx to the speedway, because it has significant parking resources that lay fallow for most of the year. I believe that the Smith/Cabarrus/LMS could consider paying to extend the line there and then charge a nominal fee for park and ride service.

Either way, if Cabarrus does want to tax themselves to extend the line to Concord Mills or possibly create some other form of transit where you transfer at the end of the Lynx blue line, I think there is a strong case that they could increase the density of Speedway/Smith/Concord Mills Blvd. It already is getting hotel space, and lots of other stuff, so it could possibly be the start of turning it into a place where they put zone for some office projects and other various functions that could support transit.

I think that there is a very strong case for modest extensions of the currently planned blue line. I believe that a final line length of 30 miles is very reasonable considering the very strong centers just beyond both ends of the currently planned 20 mile line. A 4-5 mile extension to Ballantyne is reasonable, and a 4-5 mile extension on LMS and Concord Mills is also fairly reasonable. Both would provide significant reverse commute and pleasure trip generation with the inclusion of malls and other retail destinations, but would also help those highly sprawling places to convert to more urban designs and land uses.

[AuLukey]

I agree dub. There is still a lot of unused space along Speedway/Bruton Blvd that could, if a line were built, be used for "good" rather than sprawl. The land surrounding the speedway is a sea of parking which could someday be converted to a few parking decks and more dense development. If bruton was a smart business man, he would see the potential behind having retail and commercial on his land surrounding a transit line. Further down Speedway/Bruton/CMills Blvd towards the mall is a lost cause, but the area around the convention center is springing up hotels left and right and that gives a lot to uptown in terms of potential visitors. I have seen a large increase in pedestrians along this stretch while driving to visit my parents lately.

You have to remember that chosing to add 2.5, maybe even 5 miles (if it turned up the Blvd towards the mall) would connect the NHOF with the speedway. That's a draw in upon itself. That puts tourists from the NHOF, CMills, and Concord's hotels on our trains who can make a stop anywhere to help out the economy along the line. I don't think having the line get to the mall would all in all make a lot of sense, but rather have the line stop at the convention center which will be surrounded by at least a dozen hotels, a golf course, and a waterpark/hotel when all is said and done. However, you know the city wouldn't waste the opportunity to just say "the heck with it," and extend it the extra half mile to the mall. Even if that did mean crossing 85.

We all know NASCAR fans love their RV's. But you know how much gas costs in those things?!? I don't think they'd pass up the chance to go to the NHOF via train and not deal with parking uptown if they could. So, not only would the line be in use during the race, but also for the entire week before each race. Also, we'll have events from the dirt track and drag strip practically year round. And while the race seasons are quiet during the winter, you have christmas shopping feeding the line to CMills.

While the actual ridership during rush hour may not be impacted a lot overall considering the little bit extra of a drive to 485, I think it would do a lot to help tourism in both counties. If the feds have pre-approved funding for the NE line already, this could be a "next phase" type of proposal that could very well be partially paid for by Bruton, Concord, and Cabarrus and could be pitched to the feds as just that.

I do agree that the NCRR idea is a good one, but it doesn't even come close to the CMills area, so it doesn't really belong in the same debate. I don't think that this extension should be included in the current phase of the NE line, but as the next one. Same for the Ballantyne area. It would just be another leg.

[Andyc545]

Remember, the kind of money that Bruton Smith is offering to put down is in fact just chump change with respect to the overall cost of the extensions. 50 million (which is the current offering by Smith) is only enough to cover a bridge and maybe a small portion of track at best, so it would be a significant price tag to cross 85 over to the mall for the small amount of ridership. Also, granite this could change, but like I said earlier, the Speedway is a big dead zone. It would receive zero funding, because when you look at the percentage of retail/residential/office within a half mile radius of the station, which I would presume would be right at the speedway, you would get numbers that read 0/0/0 with the only draw a speedway that is filled with a demographics that isn't prone to using mass transportation as they are to using their car with activities and events/draws that only draw the high traffic crowds a seldom amount of time per year. Parking decks aren't something that would be accepted for the speedway. The speedway is in a way a large carnival, if you ever go by it during one of the big races. People camp out there, huge 18 wheelers from every sponsor imaginable line up and people walk around the "grounds" as part of the events. I am not one that can speak with intelligence about NASCAR, but I could say that parking decks are more than likely not a vision to LMS. I think if Cabarrus was going to invest into transit to help connect commuters to our uptown, they need to do some better research and invest their money more wisely.

aussie, you did illustrate a valid point about the amount of land that is available for development. I do agree with that, however, it would be a realll long term goal to get these wooded lots up to the development standards such as S. End, and would not be well perceived until there is in fact development there to entertain a worthwhile extension of the line, that would in fact attract dense residential development, office buildings, and retail that would be worth utilizing the line for. In a survey, it was pointed that an extension into Cabarrus would only locate 200 more riders. At the price tag, I don't think anyone would see that as a justifiable extension per rider, and honestly, you aren't going to be attracting any different of riders, that is riders that would get on in Cabarrus Co, that couldn't just drive a mile or two extra to the 485 station, or like I also mentioned, could utilize a bus transport system. As of now and in the foreseeable future around LMS, I don't picture dense housing, retail, and other dense office towers that would be adequate for receiving a station. If Cabarrus was smarter, they would work at some alternative if they are serious to getting transit oriented developments and transportation.

[monsoon]

I honestly don't think Concord Mills is that much of a tourist draw amongst those people who would live along the extension to warrant the cost of building a line all the way to the mall. (I estimate this to be in the $500M range) Ridership would be problematic given that it would be a very long ride on the train from downtown to the mall on such a train, and CM and speedway area is served by some of the best roads in the entire metro. (85 was recently expanded to 8+ lanes and Hwy 29 has reversing lanes on it). The train would be competing against this and the vast areas of free parking that has been built in this area. Finally without a car, you can go to the mall if the train went there, you could not go to any of the other shopping venues being built in the area because it is absolutely pedestrian unfriendly. In fact it is pedestrian hostile. Cabarrus has plans to completely develop retail across the street from the mall, across 85 from the mall and there is also a new Lowes/Walmart going up near there too. There is no way to walk to any of it.

It would be a very bad investment in transit dollars given the much better bang for the buck the money would bring if $500M was spent elsewhere. I don't think you will ever see the Concord/Smith/Cabarrus spend anywhere close to enough money to move the train 1 inch out of Mecklenburg.

[Justadude]

- At 7pm on a normal evening, it takes about 15 minutes to get from a 277 onramp to Concord Mills. It wouldn't be unusual to wait more than 15 minutes for a train simply to arrive at an uptown station.

- Circulator buses are a perfectly normal method of moving between a rail line and a sports event. Cities all over the country, Atlanta for instance, use shuttle buses to get fans from train stations to stadium gates. I don't believe that NASCAR fans would have a huge problem with sitting on a nice charter bus in between a LYNX station and LMS.

[dubone]

I completely agree that Concord, Concord Mills and Lowe's Motor Speedway should first focus on buses and circulators, as they are only needed periodically.

I will say, however, that if Bruton Smith is good for his $50m, then it is not chump change. The Lynx cost $48M per mile in the first place, and that included some significant common features that a modest extension would not need to cover. A 2.5 mile extension to the speedway would be $120M by that metric, so $50m is 40% of that! Granted it would need to cross 485, but take a look at the Tryon bridge over 485 and you'll see that there is a median AND an extra turn lane on that bridge AND a shoulder on both sides! Given the political power of the speedway, I bet they could get NCDOT to allow a rail median. They could fund a loop for north bound Tryon to get on westbound 485 and they could take away BOTH turn lanes, giving enough space on the bridge for a train. Anyway, my point is, that depending on inflation and the cost of the bridge, minus the savings from extending and existing line, that $50m is likely to be around 1/3 of the cost.

All of this, however, has the possibility of having Concord or Cabarrus to help fund, which is an idea THEY came up with, which started this whole topic.

From Mecklenburg County's, perspective, stop the line before 485 and expect that busses/shuttles/circulators will do the job. But if Cabarrus wants to participate, it would help Mecklenburg, too.

[Andyc545]

If the bridge over 485 was structurally sound enough and had enough expansion room to support the LRT down the middle, it would save a lot of money and allocate a reevalution of costs for the extension, however, since much of the train would be running on the side of N. Tryon into the University and then out, to allow the train to get into the median, it would be required a minimum of one bridge over N. Tryon, else a redevelopment of N. Tryon to go under/over the train rails because N. Tryon is not a suitable road for having a level crossing, putting money back on to the grand total.

[dubone]

I'm not going to get too far down the road of design when we are really just talking strategy and concepts now, but let's say it saves tens of millions of dollars to use the median, that would make a case for creating a crossing with a light to get the train into the center median to cross. The other option is to shift the northbound lanes of Tryon into the median and have the train run on the side, with crossings at both the ramps. Either way, it is workable if NCDOT went along, which is highly unlikely except with the political pressures that LMS might be able to apply.

[monsoon]

The Lynx cost $48M per mile in the first place, and that included some significant common features that a modest extension would not need to cover. A 2.5 mile extension to the speedway would be $120M by that metric, so $50m is 40% of that! .....

[Mobuchu]

I just dont see this happening no matter what the cost is, and prefer it doesn't with our transit $$. It wont make much of a difference and the cost will be way too high. End the line at 485 and use the circular buses like others have suggested. As evidence by the Panthers game this past weekend, LRT is just not designed to handle huge crowds efficiently. A couple race days a year are just not worth it. Also, every extra mile added to the line spreads our trains out a little bit more. I prefer CATS has the ability to tighten the schedule then having to send trains out an extra 3 miles with nobody on them.

[staffer]

Light rail to LMS? More speculative stories from last week, based on Cabarrus and Bruton Smith funding (generally dubunked here at UP, bridging I-485 estimated in 2006 as $31m, plus $??m+/mile for the last two miles to LMS)

WBTV

Concord Independent

[fulcrumsf]

Light rail to LMS? More speculative stories from last week, based on Cabarrus and Bruton Smith funding (generally dubunked here at UP, bridging I-485 estimated in 2006 as $31m, plus $??m+/mile for the last two miles to LMS)

WBTV

Concord Independent

[Justadude]

The tone of those articles is fairly speculative, and none of the comments address the issues that have been raised here. Sounds like the local media picking up on "buzz" but not doing much digging for details.

[mad_park]

why would you extend the rail out there for < 10 major events per year (if you include busch races and qualifying). Would Bruton let cabarrus residents use his lots at the Terminus as park and ride lots? Would anyone trust him enough to think he wouldn't renege on this?