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Does Tallahassee deserve to be the capital?


fsubelch

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You can go back and read my posts. It says "ECONOMIC ENGINES." Not industry (and you are erroneously concluding that all business is in one industry). I guess having the state government move to Central Florida, which is still some 200 miles away from South Florida, does qualify it as being closer. So I guess thats where you think you're right.

Yes, I edit posts when I see spelling errors or punctuation errors that I didnt catch the first time.

No, when you just start out at a state agency, such as yourself, you dont make great money. You have to put in time and climb the ladder, as many have done and are doing right now.

The rest of your points on things to do are just flip-flopping from what you've previously said. Either a Capital City is only a place for business and not fun, as said in the previous post, or it is a place to entertain, as said in the latter. I cant keep up!

I just dont think you quite get what I'm saying in terms of efficency, or efficiency in general (City/County consolidation is a great example of efficiency, but you've never mentioned anything on how the Police spend there time outside of work before in that thread). Maybe you like to go to work, go home at night, stay home on the weekends, then come back to work. As for the rest, we like to have a life outside of work. I dont quite see how a game on Saturday afternoon is going to effect me at my weekly meeting on Wednesday. Government doesnt care how you spend your leisure time. But taxpayers care how government spends their money that takes away from extra income, thus having an effect on their leisure time.

Still waiting on those crime statistics, as well as why you think we need all the entertainment options I've listed...I've addressed your points paragraph by paragraph, and would love for that to be replicated.

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OK question for FL and GG since they seem to be deeply discussing this topic:

Please list for me the TOP 3 reasons a place/city makes a good place for the seat of government. Just the top 3 reasons please and possibly why you think they are important. Also this for any State Capital, not just FL's.

I ask this of you b/c I am getting confused by your discussion points and maybe if we knew your criteria, it may help us and you understand each other a little better. I will appreciate the response. :)

Anyone else feel free to list your reasons too.

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I'll briefly respond to TJ's points, as I'm on the way home, but will fully respond later.

You're contradicting yourself on the weeknight issues (which had nothing to do with efficiency from the beginning).

Also, if you can't provide stats on your claims, then they are baseless and have no merit. Its called google, and its very easy to find.

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I believe you're erroneously concluding that I'm using the term "Industry" erroneously. I'm referring to a broad scope of businesses and services (i.e. "The software and tourism industries continue to grow, while the steel industry remains troubled."). Whether it's Central or South Florida my original points stand. A capital city in either locale is not as strong as it is here. If we're talking South Florida, we're talking about a region that is Hurricane Prone and leisure oriented. Same can be said about the Central Florida area, give or take a few storms.

That first sentence almost has enough double speak in it for me to just avoid it. But your own example does a fine job of making my point. You're trying to narrow "industry" down to one or a few entities. Im meaning the majority of businesses in this state that provide the most jobs, most tax revenue, research, etc, which are located in Central and South Florida. I dont know why you are so obsessed with this "leisure" lifestyle.

I've not made the duration of my time with the state or my salary an issue in this debate, therefore I think you should refrain from doing the same lest you want to divulge the details of your employment.

Im not saying you have, but I know you havent been there long, so you cant really know the structure of the government.

I believe you've gotten your mind so caught up in the idea of me saying one would be so distracted at night that they would not be able to function/focus the next day if we had many of those amenities you previously mentioned. You're unable to grasp the point of what I'm trying to convey. Perhaps I could have someone else translate it for me. You often understand things better when I'm not the one saying them. I'm not talking about weekend sports, I'm talking about those such as Basketball, Baseball which go on throughout the week and may keep people up and out late watching, when they have to work the next day.

Im not unable to grasp your point, youre just not doing a good job making it. How have so many of this country's major cities that have these events been able to maintain a workforce? Take New York, for example. 2 MLB teams, 2 NFL teams, 1 NBA team, 2 NHL teams, Broadway shows galore. How has the workforce or economic output suffered in that city? How have the guys on Wall Street been able to show up at work after watching the Devil Rays beat up on their beloved Yankees? I think thats a weak point that is easily proven wrong.

If I'm looking to relocate a business in order for it to function as efficiently as possible, I'm not going to put it in a place that has such a tremendous number of distractions as to not allow my man-power to focus on the task at hand. If you want kids to read do you take them to Chuck E Cheese? My point is not to withhold fun things from a Capital City, but to illustrate one is probably better off without. There's no flip-flopping involved! Oh how I love the way republicans coin phrases!

If you're looking for a business to relocate and you dont have many of these "distractions," you're going to have a hard time convincing your employees to come. "Hey guys, come to no-life-ville where I expect you to be all work, no play." Let me know how that works out for you! But I'll ask you again, and maybe you'll answer this time. Why do we need the Tallahassee Titans, a PAC, the Seminoles for that matter, when they are only going to distract employees from their work? You saying they're better off without pretty much sums up why this town has a hard time attracting business.

But again, you have completely missed the point of efficiency.

And the Chuck E Cheese comment...what? Of course I wouldnt take them there to learn to read. But I would take them there as a reward for there hard work at school, or after a week of FCAT testing, or just for a fun family night out. Just like I wouldnt take my son to a legislative session to teach him about football. That didnt make sense.

You'll continue to wait on those crime stats, that's not my area of expertise. As far as me thinking we need all the entertainment options you listed, I don't think that was my position in this debate.

Again, you dont need to be an expert to find stats like that anymore with the internet. It would take 2 minutes or less to find that on Google, and I know you recently graduated college, so you should have NO trouble finding that.

I know the entertainment options wasnt your position in this debate, but you listed them as distractions to the workforce, in which I then asked you why you pushed for certain items (i.e. Titans, PAC, Cascades Park, etc).

*Edited for spelling, grammar, and punctuation, as to not be accused of changing my posts at a later time.

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OK question for FL and GG since they seem to be deeply discussing this topic:

Please list for me the TOP 3 reasons a place/city makes a good place for the seat of government. Just the top 3 reasons please and possibly why you think they are important. Also this for any State Capital, not just FL's.

I ask this of you b/c I am getting confused by your discussion points and maybe if we knew your criteria, it may help us and you understand each other a little better. I will appreciate the response. :)

Anyone else feel free to list your reasons too.

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OK question for FL and GG since they seem to be deeply discussing this topic:

Please list for me the TOP 3 reasons a place/city makes a good place for the seat of government. Just the top 3 reasons please and possibly why you think they are important. Also this for any State Capital, not just FL's.

I ask this of you b/c I am getting confused by your discussion points and maybe if we knew your criteria, it may help us and you understand each other a little better. I will appreciate the response. :)

Anyone else feel free to list your reasons too.

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I'll briefly respond to TJ's points, as I'm on the way home, but will fully respond later.

You're contradicting yourself on the weeknight issues (which had nothing to do with efficiency from the beginning).

Also, if you can't provide stats on your claims, then they are baseless and have no merit. Its called google, and its very easy to find.

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There's no contradiction in my argument.

What I think you fail to understand is, I am not trying to say amenities are not important to the functionality of a CITY. What I'm saying is the abundance of amenities does not make for a better CAPITAL city. I'll keep it short and simple so you'll have less to twist.

I do apologize for my baseless claim about the safety of Tallahassee's neighborhoods. It has been said that perception is reality, however I know this isn't always the case.

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Opponents may say Tallahassee is too small to be the Seat of State Government, but one must challenge this when the question, too small for what? In 33 of the 50 U.S. states, the capital is currently not the state's most populous city. There are exactly 25 capital cities smaller than Tallahassee.

  • Juneau, Alaska

  • Hartford, Connecticut

  • Dover, Delaware

  • Springfield, Illinois

  • Topeka, Kansas

  • Frankfort, Kentucky

  • Augusta, Maine

  • Annapolis, Maryland

  • Lansing, Michigan

  • Jefferson City, Missouri

  • Helena, Montana

  • Carson City, Nevada

  • Concord, New Hampshire

  • Trenton, New Jersey

  • Santa Fe, New Mexico

  • Albany, New York

  • Bismark, North Dakota

  • Salem, Oregon

  • Harrisburg, Pennsylvania

  • Columbia, South Carolina

  • Pierre, South Dakota

  • Montpelier, Vermont (The least populous U.S. State Capital)

  • Olympia, Washington

  • Charleston, West Virginia

  • Cheyenne, Wyoming

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Gentlemen, nice 3 points of criteria for a good Capital City. It does appear you may or may not have tailored them to fit your position or your position may have come out of having these criteria already predetermined in your head.

Since GG says comparing smaller state capitals isn't fair and I tend to agree to a point. I ask you this question: How do the big 5 States and their Capitals rate in your above personal criteria for a good State Capital? And do you think they make better State Capitals than Tally IYHO based on your criteria? I know that last part is subjective as all hell.

They are:

Sacramento (California)

Austin (Texas)

Albany (New York)

Tallahassee (Florida)

Springfield (Illinois)

Just a brief line or two about about each point will do fine. I'm not trying to work you guys to death. I'm real curious as to what the objective truth is here and this is sort of a means of trying to find that truth out.

Again I appreciate your reading this and responding.

Also For the Record: I've accused no one of spinning anything on this topic. :)

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Gentlemen, nice 3 points of criteria for a good Capital City. It does appear you may or may not have tailored them to fit your position or your position may have come out of having these criteria already predetermined in your head.

Since GG says comparing smaller state capitals isn't fair and I tend to agree to a point. I ask you this question: How do the big 5 States and their Capitals rate in your above personal criteria for a good State Capital? And do you think they make better State Capitals than Tally IYHO based on your criteria? I know that last part is subjective as all hell.

They are:

Sacramento (California)

Austin (Texas)

Albany (New York)

Tallahassee (Florida)

Springfield (Illinois)

Just a brief line or two about about each point will do fine. I'm not trying to work you guys to death. I'm real curious as to what the objective truth is here and this is sort of a means of trying to find that truth out.

Again I appreciate your reading this and responding.

Also For the Record: I've accused no one of spinning anything on this topic. :)

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This is also irrelevant. Most of the states you mention here have significantly smaller populations than Florida. You will need to divide the number of people in those cities by the total number of people in the state to make a true comparison. Otherwise, your comparing apples to oranges.
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POPULATION COMPARISON

The point here is to note that there are capital cities in the country with populations lower than Tallahassee's. Because state populations vary, I've taken the liberty of calculating their City to State population ratios for you. :

* Juneau, Alaska .0462

* Hartford, Connecticut .035

* Dover, Delaware .038

* Springfield, Illinois .0087

* Topeka, Kansas .044

* Frankfort, Kentucky .00659

* Augusta, Maine .014

* Annapolis, Maryland .0064

* Lansing, Michigan .0118

* Jefferson City, Missouri .00678

* Helena, Montana .0273

* Carson City, Nevada .023

* Concord, New Hampshire .032

* Trenton, New Jersey .0097

* Santa Fe, New Mexico .036

* Albany, New York .00497

* Bismark, North Dakota .0873

* Salem, Oregon .040

* Harrisburg, Pennsylvania .00393

* Columbia, South Carolina .0284

* Pierre, South Dakota .0177

* Montpelier, Vermont (The least populous U.S. State Capital) .0129

* Olympia, Washington .00665

* Charleston, West Virginia .029

* Cheyenne, Wyoming .1075

Tallahassee, Florida = .0088

The average ratio of the list below is .0274. Tallahassee is well below that 2.7% mark having within it's boundaries only .88% of Florida's population. However, Tallahassee isn't at the bottom, 7 other capital cities have ratios below ours.

New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and Washington states make notable comparisons.

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Is a capital city not a city? Can a capital city not be a "regular," thriving city? Are all capital cities doomed to be dull? Are employees of government not normal people too? Do they not like the same things non-capital city residents do?

I know you hear Poonther say Im good at spinning things, and its funny when he does (because I typically do it in lighthearted situations, but not here). But its not when you say it, especially when its not even near accurate. And in most situations, people start to call it spin when they are losing an argument and are running out of points.

I really could make your argument better than you are making it...at least to where someone could understand and follow it, and not have to go back to the other posts and try and figure out the contradicitons.

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Gentlemen, nice 3 points of criteria for a good Capital City. It does appear you may or may not have tailored them to fit your position or your position may have come out of having these criteria already predetermined in your head.

Since GG says comparing smaller state capitals isn't fair and I tend to agree to a point. I ask you this question: How do the big 5 States and their Capitals rate in your above personal criteria for a good State Capital? And do you think they make better State Capitals than Tally IYHO based on your criteria? I know that last part is subjective as all hell.

They are:

Sacramento (California)

Austin (Texas)

Albany (New York)

Tallahassee (Florida)

Springfield (Illinois)

Just a brief line or two about about each point will do fine. I'm not trying to work you guys to death. I'm real curious as to what the objective truth is here and this is sort of a means of trying to find that truth out.

Again I appreciate your reading this and responding.

Also For the Record: I've accused no one of spinning anything on this topic. :)

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Sure a Capital City is a city. As is apparent in many states throughout the nation, a capital city can be it's jurisdictions largest and most vibrant. Does that make it or it's state better off? In my opinion, not at all. When a state has its economy and population all clustered in one area the rest of the state struggles. As a government employee myself I can say that I'm a normal person, who can appreciate the same things non-capital city residents do. While I don't have everything I want, I've got most of it here to enjoy with the promise of more to come.

Here's your earlier post:

"What I think you fail to understand is, I am not trying to say amenities are not important to the functionality of a CITY. What I'm saying is the abundance of amenities does not make for a better CAPITAL city. I'll keep it short and simple so you'll have less to twist."

I've read Poonther say you spin things many times, and I've noticed him not say it many times when he should have. I don't think I've used the term spin in this debate, but you have twisted statements out of line. Fortunately I need not answer to this because there's a record of the conversation. I've not run out of points, and will continue to debate you on this topic until your fingers hurt.

Spin, twist, they're both synonyms for each other. Call it what you want. But may I suggest you look up the definition before you accuse someone one of spinning something who is proving you wrong and pointing out your contradictions. Yes, there is a record of all these conversations, and if someone tried to follow your points, I believe they would be completely confused, because you've yet to keep a consistent one. And my fingers are fine.

Again, there have been no contradictions. Perhaps you find the need to go back because you didn't fully understand or digest what was written the first time around.

TJ, with all due respect, you are one of the easier things I deal with every day. Your points are not at all difficult to understand (except for determining which side your taking at the particular time). But keep thinking Im "twisting" things. Youre just making this easier.

Also, Ive again responded point by point to your posts. You have not done so, picking only things you think you can win on. I would appreciate you responding to all of my points and questions, otherwise this is a waste of time.

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Austin, TX

They seem to do everything right in Austin. They've adopted a green attitude, diversified their economy, and celebrate the fact that they're different! You've got to love the people of Austin and the great work they do for the state of Texas.

While Austin's location favors the east side of the state, it's several highways, international airport, commuter rail, and Amtrak make for a very accessible city.

It's location is well inland, buffered from most storms that threaten the Southeast. Thunderstorms are frequent here but tornadoes are not. Also according to WiKi, Snowfall is rare in Austin, but once every year or two Austin is hit with an ice storm that freezes roads over and shuts down much of the city for around a day. So I'd say, Austin, except for that one day every one or two years is a safe haven for state government to operate from.

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Albany, NY

I only know the people of Albany on paper, but from what I can tell they seem to appreciate many of the same things we do when it comes to their culture and service to NY. Their economy is heavily dependent on Government much like our own and judging from the condition of the State of NY from it's largest city to it's smallest town, I'd say the needs of New Yorkers are being met.

Albany also favors its state's eastern coast, making it more of a drive for New Yorkers in the western part of the state. But they shouldn't mind the beautiful trip across the state along I-90 or one of Albany's several highways. Amtrak, Greyhound, and Albany International also make the city quite accessible to its citizenry.

There are probably locations within the state of New York with more of a safety buffer, but Albany's location was strategic when it was founded because of its location along the Hudson River. This city is located in an area that is conducive to heavy snows and extreme cold temperatures. Probably not the best location from an emergency management perspective, but does one exist in the State of New York?

Because, as you showed, its capital's population percentage is well below even Tallahassee's.
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Springfield, IL

What can you say about a city centered around one of the greatest American Presidents, Abraham Lincoln. The economy is largely government based and the people here love food! It was founded by people who traveled here through some harsh conditions and had to resort to cannibalism, but hopefully they've learned the error of their ways and are now safe to live among.

Springfield, is almost perfectly centered in the state of Illinois. One interstate runs north to south, while another runs east to west. The city also lies along the famous route 66. Amtrak and a Regional Airport also service this city, making Springfield a very accessible location.

While the city is centrally located within the state, it is also in a region that is tornado prone. In 2006 two tornadoes hit the city. They've since installed a tornado warning system to enhance safety. Emergency management may not be the strongest suit of this city, but it's location well within the borders of its state, and distance from Chicago, make it safer from various forms of invasions or terrorist attacks.

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I claimed earlier that I could make the other sides arguments better than the current case being made. Im going to do it. One of the most important factors in winning your arguments is knowing the other sides as good if not better than you know yours, and be able to back it up with facts, not just "feel good" statements as is being done currently.

Good question. When Tallahassee was founded as the state capital, in the 1800's, it was the best place for it. It was the mid point of the two major "metro" areas in Florida at the time, Pensacola and St. Augustine. Apparently, people from both towns could make the trip in two days by horse. That way, when a session was called, there was an approximate 4-5 day turnaround, by time the messangers could deliver and the delegation could arrive. It was actually in the 1970's when the push to move the Capital to Orlando happened, and the result is the current Capital. Thats what happens when you rush things.

Many would argue that Central Florida would be a much better location for the state capital, saying that the name says it all. Its Central Florida. It is the geographical center of the state. However, this has been attempted before. State Sen. Lee Wiseborn made a "valiant attempt" to move the state's capital to Orlando in the 1970's. The legislature struck that down, and it has been over 30 years since then, and there has been no movement to relocate the Capitol. (Source: The Florida Handbook, 2006-2007). Why? Because Tallahassee is working fine, and the top government officials, term after term, see no reason to move it. Also, there has been no movement by the citizens of the state to move the Capitol to a more central location.

Present day is this the best practical location? No. Not at all. You can point out the many differences many of the major cities have compared to each other, but truth is, they have as many if not more similarities. Also, like you hinted at, a majority of the legislative delegation and their staff must travel well over 200 miles to get here. You would think that most fly. Thats not the case, most of them drive, along with their staff so they have transportation when they get here. This actually ends up costing the state a lot of money as travel is reimbursed, and a majority of the legislative delegation takes advantage of that. Orlando, Lakeland, Tampa, Ocala...any of those cities would make more sense in terms of geographical location and location to the economic engine of the state, and for efficiency (which I know is like a 4 letter word in government).

Sure, the state has to pay travel costs for the legislature, but thats not to important for a few reasons. First, there are only 160 legislators, with, lets say, an average staff of 3. Thats 480 people who have to travel to Tallahassee to do legislative work. Second, if its government efficiency your worried about, there are many more significant ways the government can find ways to cut spending and improve responsiveness. Minimizing red tape and process, haveing agencies work together rather than against each other, providing incentives to citizens to not rely so much on governement, just to name a few. Other than this year with its many special sessions, the legislature doesnt travel to Tallahassee enough for this to warrant a major problem.

Worried about the capital not being close enough to the economic entities in this state that provide a significant tax base? (Just as an aside, that is spin, TJ). Not to worry, thats why these companies pay the 1,000+ lobbyists (from Online Sunshine's website of registered lobbyists). It is the lobbyists' job to travel back and forth to the company, and then communicate the company's positions to the legislature. Business leaders arent required or needed to appear infront of the legislature enough to warrant moving an entire government closer to them. The lack of a nicer airport doesnt much matter either. Lobbyists dont care if they have to pay $500 to fly out of Tallahassee to meet with their clients because they arent paying for it. As I'll say more in the next paragraph, until residents open their wallets and shut their mouths, they get the airport they deserve.

Dont think there are enough leisurely activities in this town for its employees to enjoy? That has nothing to do with the state. Until the people of this town show the purchasing power that these companies want to see to move here, it wont happen. The people here complain about there not being any professional sports league, but then when one comes to town, the numbers arent there to support it (regardless of the highest #'s in the league, still not enough to stay in the black). There arent the quality of restaurants here for the same reason. Mexican and BBQ places keep popping up because thats what this area demands. If the people of Tallahassee want nicer and more abundant restaurants, they're going to have to "show me the money."

End Discussion.

Easy points you could have made, but decided to take non-stable routes instead and got confused by what you were trying to say thus making your points difficult to follow.

It was my pleasure taking care of that for you.

I purposely don't respond to your posts point by point because doing so would be a violation of UrbanPlanet policy. Perhaps I should have pointed that out earlier.
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Springfield, IL

Springfield, is almost perfectly centered in the state of Illinois. One interstate runs north to south, while another runs east to west. The city also lies along the famous route 66. Amtrak and a Regional Airport also service this city, making Springfield a very accessible location.

While the city is centrally located within the state, it is also in a region that is tornado prone. In 2006 two tornadoes hit the city. They've since installed a tornado warning system to enhance safety. Emergency management may not be the strongest suit of this city, but it's location well within the borders of its state, and distance from Chicago, make it safer from various forms of invasions or terrorist attacks.

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You've made a lot of claims in your posts without backing them up? Have any factual information?

What can you say about a city centered around one of the greatest American Presidents, Abraham Lincoln. The economy is largely government based and the people here love food! It was founded by people who traveled here through some harsh conditions and had to resort to cannibalism, but hopefully they've learned the error of their ways and are now safe to live among.

Where can I verify the economic and food statements?

Again, "feel good" statements dont make them factual.

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