Bush gets his Iraq Trophy

[uptownliving]

donatopablo...it is well documented that authorites knew about 30 min before the first plane hit the WTC that it had been hijacked and had been headed towards NYC. There was a plane that was scrambled to intercept that plane but it did not get there in enough time as the Plane had to come from Cape Cod...the closer in AF bases did not have any airplanes ready to go.

It is also well docmuented that the Director of the CIA, George Tenet, the second he heard about the plane hitting the WTC he knew it was Osama Bin Laden...this is who Bush had been briefed about numerous times over the summer that he was planning an attack on the US...obviously it did not sink into Bush's head that is what happened. I too think it is rather silly he sat there continuing to read the childrens book...even after he knew...he should have taken action like the rest of the Goverment was that morning. Government has a role to play in responding to crisis...a role that in my opinion does not include reading books to children...especially if you are the commander in chief.

[Dale]

uptown, I think it's a fair point.

[BrandonTO416]

At this point I don't see the reason in arguing any further - you are convicted in your beliefs that Iraq is a hotbed of terror.

Dale - I'm a respectful person, I have strong beliefs that a lot of this is political, there is lots of money being made, and that Iraq is not the best way to deal with *terror* and a matter of fact think that unstability in Iraq has caused us to be more proned to terror for the moment.

At this point its probably better to agree to disagree and move forward. There was strong evidence that Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction, most of that evidence coming up not to be true. That is the only legitimate threat I saw out of this war. 20/20 hindsight is always different then before, but I didn't think that the WMD threat was enough in the beginning anyway. I opposed this war from day one.

I consider myself to be well-informed and have yet to see evidence to support that Iraq was a problem on the terrorism front. It was a completely different type of problem - and one we didn't deal with in an intelligent manner.

It is easy to say "Is the world better with or without Saddam" and then turn around and have people under you make the case that those against the war are pro-Saddam or whatever. Its also a way of making below the belt punches at your fellow Americans, and for that I highly resent the right-wing atmosphere in this country right now. I resent it so much, it frustrates me to the point where I don't want to even think about politics at all. Stating the obvious doesn't make a credible argument to do something. Yes, Saddam was evil - and still is even if he has no power. But there is so much more to an equation to think about then the obvious.

There is too much evidence to support other things of why this war was begun - no it wasn't all political, but Bush has milked the political cow out of this war and will continue to do so until November. This war wasn't started as a corporate welfare program, but a good portion of it has become that - especially with unregulated and non-bid projects going to Bush supporters. Is this a conspiracy theory? No. Its just the reality - Bush is corrupt, and I do not trust him.

I do trust John Kerry far more then Bush, and hope he wins come fall.

If you disagree - so be it.

[monsoon]

[Dale]

heckles -

I'm okay with disagreement. Though I would hasten to add that I do not wholly disagree with you. I do have my difficulties with the Bush administration.

Moreover, I do not presume to know where all this is going. I'm willing to wait and see. I regret that some half of the electorate are not so inclined.

Of course there's always the possibility that if Kerry gets the job, he will essentially build on the Bush strategy. How would that go over with you ?

[Guest donaltopablo]

donatopablo...it is well documented that authorites knew about 30 min before the first plane hit the WTC that it had been hijacked and had been headed towards NYC. There was a plane that was scrambled to intercept that plane but it did not get there in enough time as the Plane had to come from Cape Cod...the closer in AF bases did not have any airplanes ready to go.

That is correct. Also if you look at those facts (I had a long discussion with Marc about this) Norad was advised by the FAA at 8:40am, the first plane struck at 8:46am. The fighter jet scrambled at 8:52, the second tower was hit about 9-11 minutes later. The fighter reporter that he could visually see the second plane hitting the tower. Marc seems to think that the Norad jets were not in gear since they did not arrive in time, this after backing off his original story of the Atlantic Patrol planes could have respond.

I only have one question, what exactly could Bush have done in those extra 10 or even 15 minutes that would have made a difference? President isn't resonsible for scambling jets only the order to shoot them down. I've heard several sources critical of him because 'he was underreachable', however, I imagine that it would have only taken an extra 30 seconds for someone reachable to ask him a required question while he was reading. I do believe by not simply running out at that moment that he had the opportunity to be dignified in front of children and the press. Maybe a difference of opinion, but I've yet to discover something that would have changed had he done anything different.

[Dale]

monsoon -

I myself am still pissed off with Gore for trying to steal the election.

[monsoon]

[monsoon]

[BrandonTO416]

heckles -

I'm okay with disagreement. Though I would hasten to add that I do not wholly disagree with you. I do have my difficulties with the Bush administration.

Moreover, I do not presume to know where all this is going. I'm willing to wait and see. I regret that some half of the electorate are not so inclined.

Of course there's always the possibility that if Kerry gets the job, he will essentially build on the Bush strategy. How would that go over with you ?

I'm not even going to go into the "election" of 2000. That argument is not one that has an end, what has been done has been done. I was pissed off that Bush became president with a clear minority of votes and the conditions that occured in Florida. But that is the past. What two points both sides should be able to agree on - because they are facts - is that nationwide Gore did receive more then 540,000 more votes then Bush and garnered 51% of the vote nationwide. In Florida, it was an anamoly in where the difference in votes was smaller then the errors in the voting process. In other words, the margin was so slim - either candidate could technically have "won" rightfully. Whichever one had the power to do it got it - and Bush's team won that corrupt fight, a fight in which both sides were playing politics.

Bush is the President and we have to deal with that. That is reality, and the Republicans don't have any room to whine about Gore trying to steal the election. Bush is the one who was appointed President - so I don't even want to hear that.

In regards to your last statement, hell yes. Bush has already proven himself to be a crook. Kerry I am more then willing to give a chance to manage the Iraq situation.

I support Kerry's efforts to become President. If he turns out to be just as bad as Bush - then I'll have a different tone. But I am pragmatic enough to know he's our best chance right now.

[Dale]

Don't you think we just need to move on from 2000 ? Hey, I know. I think I'll create a website to address the issue. Maybe I'll call it MoveOn.org

I hope it's not taken.

[BrandonTO416]

Isn't that what I just said? I'm a liberal Democrat and believe we need to move on - but at the same time we shouldn't ignore the facts and not consider voter fraud reform. We're supposed to learn from the past, not forget it.

President Bush is the President of the US. That is reality, and its been done. I'm focused on seeing Kerry win this fall.

[monsoon]

[Guest donaltopablo]

LOL Paul, you are putting words in my mouth. I don't remember this conversation ending up this way.

I'm sorry, did you not back off of that? You sure mentioned it a lot, and I quote '2 minutes away' as you referred to them. Or should I remind you what type of aircraft they were Nevermind, your right. You didn't back off, you dropped the subject like a rock, moving on to debating the average flight speed of F15 aircraft coming from Cape Cod to NYC

I'm just bustin' your balls dude. But you did mention that a lot, I even asked you to identify the aircraft, their duty stations, and weapons load and I recall a rather confident response... you didn't seem to mention it much after that, I rather enjoyed that

[Guest donaltopablo]

There is too much evidence to support other things of why this war was begun - no it wasn't all political, but Bush has milked the political cow out of this war and will continue to do so until November. This war wasn't started as a corporate welfare program, but a good portion of it has become that - especially with unregulated and non-bid projects going to Bush supporters. Is this a conspiracy theory? No. Its just the reality - Bush is corrupt, and I do not trust him.

I've got to agree with you there. I don't think the war was started as corporate welfare, but I've admitted on many ocassions, I definitely think it's a part of the Bush administration.

[Dale]

I've got to agree with you there. I don't think the war was started as corporate welfare, but I've admitted on many ocassions, I definitely think it's a part of the Bush administration.

What do you mean "part of the Bush administration" ?

And are you going to vote libertarian ? B)

[monsoon]

[Dale]

Well put Heckles and Bush's collecting of personal trophies such as Saddam's gun is proof enought that he is not fit to run this country. I have heard that Cheney (though I don't know if it is true or not) has been firing Saddam's famous rifle. Maybe we will get to see him do it from the balcony of the whitehouse next wearing Saddam's hat.

And let me guess. If he's firing Saddam's rifle from the White House balcony come Nov. 3 you'll be pretty damned depressed. Am I right ?

[Guest donaltopablo]

What do you mean "part of the Bush administration" ?

And are you going to vote libertarian ? B)

I won't say who I'm voting for, I like to keep people guessing. It's my second favorite game after guess where I'm from originally when people meet me in person. One of those things that just illustrates stereotypes.

But yes, I certainly believe that Bush and most politicans, hook up their supporters and family members when they can get away with it. I think some do more of it than others, and I think that some are more obvious about it than others. But in this context, yes I do believe that if your buddy buddy with Bush or senior members of his administration, chances are your going to get something out of it.

[Guest donaltopablo]

Nah, Uptownliving and I went to lunch. Food before Politics.

Your right, you said you would get me the aircraft info right before lunch. Of course, I provided the info right after lunch.... hmmm... sure you don't work in the Bush administration?

[Dale]

But yes, I certainly believe that Bush and most politicans, hook up their supporters and family members when they can get away with it. I think some do more of it than others, and I think that some are more obvious about it than others. But in this context, yes I do believe that if your buddy buddy with Bush or senior members of his administration, chances are your going to get something out of it.

You're probably right about this. But now you're not singling out Bush for special scorn are you ? Isn't this pretty much part of the game ?

And if we elect Bednarik he says he's going to blow up the UN building and press criminal charges against IRS officials. Sound like a plan ? B)

[monsoon]

[Guest donaltopablo]

You're probably right about this. But now you're not singling out Bush for special scorn are you ? Isn't this pretty much part of the game ?

In a way yes, and a way no. I think political adversarys quickly forget how they themselves, or their follow party members also contribute to what we refer to as 'the good ole boy network' of hooking up friends and family in not necessarily illegal, but certainly unethical ways. However, I will say that Bush either does much more of it than the average President, or does a much worse job of keeping in quiet (or both ). And in that sense, yes, he probably deserves a special scorn.

And if we elect Bednarik he says he's going to blow up the UN building and press criminal charges against IRS officials. Sound like a plan ?  B)

I could think of better uses for the UN building, but the criminal charges against IRS officials works for me

[monsoon]

[Dale]

www.fairtax.org