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South Carolina's population growth


CorgiMatt

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1 hour ago, CLT_sc said:

Distorted.....Sure, 1.5mm is the population of the entire upstate.  Comparing that with other metro designations is wrong.  If you break up the state into mega Regions  like that, each 1/3 is about 1.5mm.  Not a meaningful statistic unless you are just trying to throw up a big #.  In addition, the upstate  is comprised of many core cities v one city like Charleston, Columbia or Charlotte.  With that, the dynamics are a little different in positive and negative ways.  When you constantly see people arguing over metrics that are not comparable, it is childish and part of the Greenville narrative of we will come up with a way on how we are leading S.C.  Comments made on here about the bulk of significant project located in greenville add to the false narrative mantra of Greenville. Greenville is a part of S.C. and benefits from favorable political gifts and tax credits. It is not leading S.C. at all.

Factually,  Greenville’s population is growing, just at slower rates than other areas of S.C.  It is moderate growth, nothing exceptional.  Greenville is also a huge county land wise so it can accommodate more people before becoming expensive like Charleston.  

As for Charlotte,  you may not like it, but the metro is becoming a larger part of S.C.  York county is growing at a very rapid rate where new high schools are being added every few years.  With the Panthers’ HQ and potential for light rail, the growth will only accelerate into nearby counties.  And yes, the infrastructure will keep up with the growth as good as it better than any region in SC. 

My guess is that you don’t like hearing about Charlotte because it makes your claims about Greenville being the biggest/best in S.C. seem trivial. In one day, York County  announced 5,000 new high quality jobs, most of which were new to Charlotte.  If that happens in greenville, you and other will tout that as why Greenville's the business center of S.C. and better than any other metro. In Charlotte, it is just a part of the long narrative.  So, no, Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Columbia, Atlanta or even Asheville do not have near the self promotion as Greenville.  

Yes, Downtown greenville has come a long way.  But, you can’t ignore that market forces are not driving the growth without understanding that One River Place and others were only built because of tax credits. One has a ton of empty space as a result of low demand.  That is a fact.  You can ignore it, but there is a ton of office space on the market and for sublease that says otherwise.   You are trying to create a market that is just not there.  Will it be, who knows. But, you need to raise college educated rates above the low 30% range if you are to attract large operators.

So, population wise, be consistent with comparisons and stop trying to add areas to make the #’s seem larger, any metro can play that game.  If you are comparing, the same rule set has to apply in a consistent way.  If you and other cant do that, then perhaps you should not be on here.

I'm a Greenville native, but have lived elsewhere for over 20 years. I currently live in the Charlotte area and love it. I plan to be buried here. With the exception of Greenville, Charlotte is the smallest city I've lived in. All of the other places I've lived are arguably superior to both Greenville and Charlotte in terms of most of the issues raised lately on this thread. Put simply, while I love my hometown and state, I'm not a Greenville-homer.

Additionally, I've lurked and periodically commented in these forums (including Charlotte's a few times) for almost 14 years.

FWIW, all that is prelude to this observation: the picture of the Greenville forum, its posters, and their attitudes about Greenville and SC in general which CLT_sc is offering is completely unrecognizable to me.

At what point, CLT_sc, do you plan to back off? Either you respect us or you don't: if you respect us, back off out of respect; if you don't, back off out of charity for us misguided ones. It should be evident to you by now that, even if you aren't the formerly banned Charlottean poster, your arguments aren't being received well. You've made your point. Now move on.

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2 hours ago, CLT_sc said:

Sigh... ok, I'll try one more time, even though my last post apparently went nowhere, but hey why not. 

Distorted.....Sure, 1.5mm is the population of the entire upstate.  Comparing that with other metro designations is wrong.  If you break up the state into mega Regions  like that, each 1/3 is about 1.5mm.  I'm  not doing that, that is the CSA population, which you well know includes the separate MSAs of Greenville and Spartanburg. The reason they are so often alluded to here is b/c they are neighbors and the fast growing city of Greer lies in both counties and metros, so they are certainly connected. But even if you want to use MSA, Greenville stacks up well enough. Not a meaningful statistic unless you are just trying to throw up a big #. Ok so CSA is not a meaningful statistic?   In addition, the upstate  is comprised of many core cities v one city like Charleston, Columbia or Charlotte. Absoulutely, which is why looking at the upstate population is a little more tricky. It's not a cut and dry process. With that, the dynamics are a little different in positive and negative ways.  When you constantly see people arguing over metrics that are not comparable, it is childish again, then stop doing it and part of the Greenville narrative of we will come up with a way on how we are leading S.C.  Comments made on here about the bulk of significant project located in greenville add to the false narrative mantra of Greenville. Again, why does this bother you and why do you care? You have yet to answer that.  Greenville is a part of S.C. Yep, last time we checked and benefits from favorable political gifts and tax credits. As do many cities and areas, including cities that are rebuilt for disaster relief and banks or companies who have received bail outs, etc. It is not leading S.C. at all. That is all opinion, and who cares anyway? It's not your job to "prove" to someone it is or isn't. 

Factually,  Greenville’s population is growing, just at slower rates than other areas of S.C.  It is moderate growth, nothing exceptional. Thank God for that! Greenville is also a huge county land wise so it can accommodate more people before becoming expensive like Charleston.  Actually it is only the 12th largest county by area in the state at 785 sqmi with Horry, Chalreston, Berkely, Spartanburg and others being larger; some considerably larger. http://www.usa.com/rank/south-carolina-state--land-area--county-rank.htm

As for Charlotte,  you may not like it, but the metro is becoming a larger part of S.C.  York county is growing at a very rapid rate where new high schools are being added every few years.  With the Panthers’ HQ and potential for light rail, the growth will only accelerate into nearby counties.  And yes, the infrastructure will keep up with the growth as good as it better than any region in SC. I have no problem with that. But CLT and it's SC counties are not the main focus for most in the SC, and certainly not, the Greenville forums. Your insistance in endlessly tooting CLT's horn in here is silly.  

My guess is that you don’t like hearing about Charlotte because it makes your claims about Greenville being the biggest/best in S.C. seem trivial. LOL, I've never claimed such, and don't care about it anyway. I don't like endlessly hearing about CLT in the SC and Greenville forums. Take it to the CLT and NC forums.   In one day, York County  announced 5,000 new high quality jobs, most of which were new to Charlotte.  That's awesome to hear! If that happens in greenville, you and other will tout that as why Greenville's the business center of S.C. and better than any other metro. :rolleyes: In Charlotte, it is just a part of the long narrative. Perfect example of your non stop CLT boosterism in here.   So, no, Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Columbia, Atlanta or even Asheville do not have near the self promotion as Greenville.  Guess what; I totally disagree. 

Yes, Downtown greenville has come a long way. A compliment! :alc: But, you can’t ignore that market forces are not driving the growth without understanding that One River Place and others were only built because of tax credits. One has a ton of empty space as a result of low demand.  That is a fact.  You can ignore it, but there is a ton of office space on the market and for sublease that says otherwise.   You are trying to create a market that is just not there. I am not creating anything, but lots of developers and people who know a lot more than me and you are. Greenville seems to be doing just fine.  Will it be, who knows. But, you need to raise college educated rates above the low 30% range if you are to attract large operators.  

So, population wise, be consistent with comparisons and stop trying to add areas to make the #’s seem larger, any metro can play that game.  If you are comparing, the same rule set has to apply in a consistent way.  Perhaps you could follow your own advice?  If you and other cant do that, then perhaps you should not be on here.  Pretty sure you don't make the rules for who can and cannot be on here, especially when you repeatedly talk down to posters in a forum in which you don't live.

This is exactly why you have been banned multiple times from this and other boards. Making my last ditch effort here; if you can just be respectful and leave your agenda at the door, you might have some worthwhile conversation to bring to the table. Do as you will...

 

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Distorted...

Not sure how to end this, you and others seem intent on not understanding that this is a S.C. forum, not Greenville.  Talking about Charlotte on a S.C. forum is very appropriate as the metro does dip into S.C. AND is one of the fastest growing parts of S.C.  It is not complicated, it is factual.  You said Charlotte and the metro are not the main focus for most in S.C., that is your opinion.  But, any worthwhile discussion of growth in S.C. and economics will include CLT.  If you ignore it, you really don’t know what you are doing.  

This thread went off when some Greenville members were arguing about how the UA in Greenville should be bigger because of factors x, y and z.  Every metro can make the same claim so using that to try and make Greenville larger is nonsense.  The measurements are defined.  The only basis for comparison is like metrics not “simpsonville should be included here because it is in Greenville county” or our  metro is really larger, almost 1.5mm because Spartanburg should really be included.  The definitions are defined and should be used.  Trying to tie Greenville into a 1.5mm number is very misleading.  And, in the case of upstate S.C., rather meaningless.

As for tax credits and developers knowing what’s best.....remember 2008? 

http://www.taxadvantagegroup.com/community-outcomes/mixed-use/

http://www.taxadvantagegroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Project-One.pdf

http://www.greenvilleeconomicdevelopment.com/sites-buildings/office-buildings/

Now remind me about developers knowing the market.  Without tax credits and the economic benefits available to the deceloper, many of projects such as One would not happen, Hughes said as much.  So, yes, they do distort the market, especially when one city uses them way too much to keep building what the market does  support.

greenville has historically been the most over the top city in S.C. at self promotion.  You see comments like “we are building the most significant projects in S.C.” or “Charleston is just a tourist city” and “Columbia is just a government city”....all of that has been written by Greenville posters.  And, my favorites written by Greenville posters, “Charlotte is a city for financial analysts” and “the Charlotte metro is just growing without any thought of growing properly”.   Read the forums, it is all there.  It’s not at all true, but written by Greenville.  

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You have to talk about Charlotte on the SC forum when talking about York County, Lancaster County, and to a lesser extent Chester. They are apart of the largest metro in both states, therefore are getting businesses that SC would probably not have, NFL headquarters that SC would probably not have, possibly light rail, that SC probably wouldn't get, if it wasn't for Charlotte being so close by with the talent and airport. We can't wipe 400,000 South Carolinians (Charlotte side) off the map like they don't exist. Those nearly 400,000 South Carolinians have more access to major metropolitan area that just doesn't exist in SC, but just as accessible to them (if it wasn't for that imaginary line) as anybody living in the Greenville MSA, etc. Which shouldn't be ignored, since we're talking about the people of SC. 

But just like with Alexandria, Ashburn, Tyson's Corner, etc with Virginia in the DMV, you have to bring up DC.  The Virginia forum can't wipe the NOVA area off the map because it's not "Richmond or VA Beach" etc.

But, I wouldn't keep bringing it up when comparing South Carolina's big three however. Only when bringing in York County, etc into the mix....

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Quote

Now remind me about developers knowing the market.  Without tax credits and the economic benefits available to the deceloper, many of projects such as One would not happen, Hughes said as much.  So, yes, they do distort the market, especially when one city uses them way too much to keep building what the market does  support.

Upon closer inspection this argument doesn't hold up.  

Tax credits, incentives and just the tax code generally, all provide inducements for development to occur and that is everywhere.   I don't know why Greenville has received a large chunk of the New Market tax Credits, but most likely it is some combination of: 1)  awareness and  quantity of submitted applications 2) the strength and economic justification of the  applications  and the local economy  3) the Tax Advantage Group that apparently specializes  in appliying for them  is a local comapny.    

 The specific  credit that you are concerned with has not produced  an oversupply of  space. Claussen Bakery, Main at Broad and McBee Station, and  Riverwalk  are all at full or very high occupancy and have been since they were built.  The Poinsett Plaza has significant vacancy now only because BB&T left. The building is 20 years old and had  high occupancy until they left.  ONE also was nearly full when it was completed.   The upside of having  a significant vacancy in this particular building is that it allows HQ recruitment to be able to offer something ready for occupancy and in a sufficient size.   As far as I know, Camperdown didn't get those credits, but irregardless the building is almost completely full and construction has barely started.  The other projects in the Tax Credit link are different cities in other states.  The majority of the office space on that link is suburban not the DT core.   To the degree there is vacant office espace DT, it is to a big degree  Class B & C. 

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New market credits are only provided in certain census tracks as defined by the government.  They are only available to be used in those areas.  My first question is how Greenville’s downtown qualifies.  But, politics does play a part here.

however, without these credits, a lot of structures would not exist because traditional financing models would simply not work. Hughes said One would have never happened without the credits and I imagine he is right.  The market distortion occurs because you are seeing inter market relocations in Greenville leaving large blocks of space open.  One has a lot of space as does the Liberty towers.  BofA will have a lot of space when BofA moves down the street. 

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I don't doubt that ONE needed the credits, but that was in part because of  the extraordinary title issues and multitude of owners making the land more expensive than  normal.  ONE's primary tenant went bankrupt and a backfill tenant left as well.  The space demand was there at the time though.   Inter market reloactions are nothing unusual,  a tenant  like BofA  would have left that building  years ago in most markets. Most cities have higher vacancy in  Class B space.           

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21 hours ago, vicupstate said:

I don't doubt that ONE needed the credits, but that was in part because of  the extraordinary title issues and multitude of owners making the land more expensive than  normal.  ONE's primary tenant went bankrupt and a backfill tenant left as well.  The space demand was there at the time though.   Inter market reloactions are nothing unusual,  a tenant  like BofA  would have left that building  years ago in most markets. Most cities have higher vacancy in  Class B space.           

Yea, Certus was a train wreck from day one, most in CLT weren’t too upset when they did not select the city as HQ.  And, the city did help assemble land for One with some financial assistance.  I am surprised that this space is hard to fill.  It is a nice building, but imagine how empty the place would be if they did not give space to Clemson.  A lot more space will come available Next door when BofA moves down the street.

I think what you said a post or two ago is the biggest take away, the 15% or so of available space downtown gives Greenville an advantage in attracting outside of the market relocations.  CBDs in Cola, Charleston and Charlotte are below 10% with large contiguous space even harder to find.  That is a great marketing advantage, but at the right price.  Greenville should be offering space in the low $20’s to get attention.  Asking rate for Camperdown at $35 is overly ambitious, no way BofA paid anything close to that.  

As for the credits, these lists are not complete.  Other projects have been subsidized with the credits and more will come.  You can’t fault the city and developers for taking advantage of the credits.  My question is how one city seems to have so much financed using these subsidies while others are left out of the game.  

Lost in a lot of the self defense arguments made on here lies a big question.....why is Greenville only posting growth rates slightly better than Cola when this seems to be the sweet spot time for the city.  There is a lot of construction driven by credits opening up a lot of available space, BMW is maxing out Plant Spartanburg and a lot of infrastructure work is happening.  Why is the city not putting up better humbers?

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56 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

The City of Greenville is actually putting up great numbers and capturing a lot of growth within its relatively small boundaries. 

Can you share some #’s with us?  By your statement, does that mean growth in the Greenville MSA is concentrated? Metro wise, Greenville is posting decent #’s, just not what you would expect based on what you are alluding to above.

Also, how much growth is retiree driven?

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4 minutes ago, CLT_sc said:

Can you share some #’s with us?  By your statement, does that mean growth in the Greenville MSA is concentrated? Metro wise, Greenville is posting decent #’s, just not what you would expect based on what you are alluding to above.

Also, how much growth is retiree driven?

15% growth between 2010 and 2017. 

2010:   59,162

2017:   68,219

I'm happy to see the City capturing population within its boundaries. MSA growth is not concentrated, unfortunately.  

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk#

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On 4/25/2019 at 8:27 AM, vicupstate said:

I grew up and have lived in SC my whole life.  From the 70's until about 2000 or 2005, the three major cities were very comaprable in terms of population, population growth, auto traffic congestion, air traffic, etc.  That started to change into where Charleston is growing much faster, getting more expensive.  Auto and air traffic is now at a significantly higher level than the other two.  I travel to Charleston 2-3 times a year and the traffic is really, really bad. Rental housing costs are about $200 a month higher than Greenville. 

The geography of Charleston is a big factor, as you have to cross a bridge to move from one part of the metro to another. That creates chokepoints that are bad enough on their own, but get even worse when a wreck or bridge repair issue arises.  Columbia has the same  river issue but to a lessor degree, but Malfunction Junction is big issue there. Greenville just doesn't have a comparable intersection  (I-385/I-85 being the closest thing to MJ).   No big rivers to cross  in the Greenville is the biggest biggest difference though.     

In the last 50 years there hasn't been a lot of road contruction but what construction there has been has been skewed very heavily towards Charleston. I remember when there was no 526 nor  James Island  Connector, nor Isle of Palm Connector, etc. Neither Columbia nor Greenville have had anywhere close to that level of highway consttruction in that period, especially Greenville.  

Yes this is true in regards to geography.  Bridges cost a lot more money to build and there are only two that go to Mount P.  If one goes down then everything gets screwed up.  I do look at 385 and Columbia interstates being superior to 526 even though it also has lots of elevated areas which would also cost a fortune to widen.  With the growth happening here they will have to figure something out.  We are almost at grid lock now.

I drove into Greenville, SC last August 2018 to meet with a lawyer to close on some land I bought in Anderson.  Met off Wade Hampton Blvd. around 5:00 PM.  I wanted to see how bad traffic would be during the week as I usually come up on the weekend.  I came down 385 and got off Pleasantburg and went over to Wade Hampton that way then when we left went down Church Street and down I-85 to where my parents live in Anderson County.  Really didn't encounter anything I would call bad traffic.  At least not Charleston bad anyways...….I had to drive into Columbia early in the morning a couple of weeks ago for a training class.  I drove freely up I-26 and directly to where I wanted to go off Bush River Rd. without any encumbrances.    

So yeah...…..traffic here really does suck.  I used to drive to Mount Pleasant from Ladson a couple of years ago for work in the morning during rush hour.  Its only 28 miles but takes over an hour to get there.  Its backed up for that whole stretch every morning whether there are wrecks or not.  I'm not trying to say one city is better than the other or anything like that.  I've lived in both and actually all my family are still around the Greenville area.  If anything I have a heavy Greenville bias but the traffic here is on another level.

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You can drive all over Greenville (at least North of I-85)and never get on an interstate and without driving a lot of extra miles.  If you live and work north of 85, IMO you really don't have to deal with traffic congestion. You can't say that about Columbia as much and you can't say it about Charleston at all. How many people in Charleston commute WITHOUT getting on I-26 or 526. It can't be very many. 

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Re: Spartanburg County- The growth is in three places - Boiling Springs/Inman, the westside (of Spartanburg city) and the east side of Greer/Greenville. Draw a line between downtown Greenville and downtown Spartanburg. Everything within about 5 miles of that is developing at a rapid pace. Reidville in particular seems to be doing well.

Re: Greenville - the city's population growth is the most impressive in South Carolina, IMO. Charleston and  Columbia have had more growth in terms of volume, but largely due to annexation. Greenville is almost 100% internal capture. To be fair, Verdae is a huge part of it, but you can't ignore what's happening in downtown and the West End in particular - but also the surrounding neighborhoods. It's a shame that SC's annexation laws are what they are.

Re: Upstate- IMO, the cities (Greenville, Spartanburg) in the Upstate are the shining gems in an area that has a myriad of problems surrounding poorly managed growth. It's frustrating to watch it happen. I do think that merging Greenville and Spartanburg back into one MSA would help IF the MPOs and RPOs that currently serve the area would be consolidated. That's GFATS, SPATS, and Appalachian COG for those keeping track. If the transportation planning groups were all under one roof for Greenville, Spartanburg, and Anderson, I think it would force the upstate to start thinking about how to solve growth problems together.

Re: York/Lancaster - God help them. The population growth is going to increase substantially, and they have no planning and development ordinances to manage the growth. It's going to be a giant CF down there in 10-20 years. Indian Land (the pan handle of Lancaster County) tried to incorporate a couple of years ago but it got shot down. That was probably their best chance at salvation. 

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On 5/11/2019 at 4:46 PM, Spartan said:

Re: Spartanburg County- The growth is in three places - Boiling Springs/Inman, the westside (of Spartanburg city) and the east side of Greer/Greenville. Draw a line between downtown Greenville and downtown Spartanburg. Everything within about 5 miles of that is developing at a rapid pace. Reidville in particular seems to be doing well.

Re: Greenville - the city's population growth is the most impressive in South Carolina, IMO. Charleston and  Columbia have had more growth in terms of volume, but largely due to annexation. Greenville is almost 100% internal capture. To be fair, Verdae is a huge part of it, but you can't ignore what's happening in downtown and the West End in particular - but also the surrounding neighborhoods. It's a shame that SC's annexation laws are what they are.

Re: Upstate- IMO, the cities (Greenville, Spartanburg) in the Upstate are the shining gems in an area that has a myriad of problems surrounding poorly managed growth. It's frustrating to watch it happen. I do think that merging Greenville and Spartanburg back into one MSA would help IF the MPOs and RPOs that currently serve the area would be consolidated. That's GFATS, SPATS, and Appalachian COG for those keeping track. If the transportation planning groups were all under one roof for Greenville, Spartanburg, and Anderson, I think it would force the upstate to start thinking about how to solve growth problems together.

Re: York/Lancaster - God help them. The population growth is going to increase substantially, and they have no planning and development ordinances to manage the growth. It's going to be a giant CF down there in 10-20 years. Indian Land (the pan handle of Lancaster County) tried to incorporate a couple of years ago but it got shot down. That was probably their best chance at salvation. 

Spartanburg’s east side is doing well, especially with the new SHS.

York and Lancaster are not as dire as depicted.  It is true they are growing at a big rate.  But, to say it will be a CF in 10-20 years is an overstatement.  For the first time, I have actually heard a SC governor talk about rail as Henry did with extending the Lynx line into York County.  Fort Mill is at high enough price points that development will be high quality and it is home to a huge park which is acting as a central point of development for the area.  So, yes, it is a bedroom city for CLT. But, I don’t see it as a CF.  Baxter is a nice area too.  

And, comparing a place like York/Lancaster  to to a rather small city like Greenville is not a good comparison.  

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Spartanburg's Eastside is stable. There is little to no noteworthy growth, though. Stable amounts of reinvestment are a good thing to be sure, but to say the east side is growing is not accurate. A new high school and some miscellaneous subdivisions are nothing compared to what's happening in Boiling Springs and in the western portion of the county.

I am highly skeptical as to whether York County can pass the taxes needed to fund and maintain a rail system and develop a partnership with SCDOT that includes mass transit while improving active transportation and providing more street connections to alleviate vehicular stress points caused by a low density road network. Prove me wrong though.

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On 5/7/2019 at 11:05 AM, vicupstate said:

You can drive all over Greenville (at least North of I-85)and never get on an interstate and without driving a lot of extra miles.  If you live and work north of 85, IMO you really don't have to deal with traffic congestion. You can't say that about Columbia as much and you can't say it about Charleston at all. How many people in Charleston commute WITHOUT getting on I-26 or 526. It can't be very many. 

Not sure I totally agree with you but we can agree to disagree :-)

If you come from Piedmont or Anderson you will probably take I-85.  Same for Mauldin or Simpsonville if you commute into Greenville down I-385.  You really think those people will come down highway 29 from Anderson or Highway 20 from Piedmont when they can hop onto I-85 or I-385?  Especially if they are working on the other side of Greenville or near Spartanburg.  Hwy. 123 is fairly major route from Easley into Greenville but people also hop on Hwy.  153 to get to I-85 more than not also.  123 takes you right into downtown and not everyone works downtown.

There are plenty of alternate routes here around Charleston to take but its just a little more congested here due to the higher population growth taking place.   Hwy. 52 coming from Moncks Corner towards North Charleston.  Hwy.78 from Summerville to North Charleston.  The new Nexton Parkway will take you around the north part of Summerville(recently opened) .  In case your forgetting Highway 17 is massively traveled here from Mount Pleasant to West Ashley.  I have a route I go from East Bay up Spruill Avenue to Rivers to get over to Ashley Phosphate quite a bit instead of getting on the interstate.  Also Dorchester Rd. runs from upper Summerville almost down to West Ashley.  Another good route to take it down Hwy. 165 to Hwy. 61 into West Ashley from Summerville, SC. Red bank Rd. Is a good alternate route from Goose creek to downtown.  The most isolated place we have here is probably Mount Pleasant.  I think another bridge wouldn't be a bad idea there.  I'd go so far to say that our interstate system is lagging behind Columbia or Greenvilles.  Most of I-526 is only 4 lanes and there is no interstate access to John's Island which is rapidly growing.  

Like I've already said many times i was born and raised in Anderson, SC and worked on many projects in Greenville and Spartanburg during my teens and 20's.  I know the upstate like the back of my hand.  The low country is a total different animal than the rest of the state.  Being that one side of Charleston is water you lack the other half that Columbia or Greenville has. All that growth is pushed back inland and that is one reason Berkley County is one of the fastest growing in the state now.  So you have this aspect and the aspect of having a lot of water everywhere and having to build elevated for a lot of infastructure.  Most buildings here anywhere near the ocean are built on pilings or they tend to sink. 

 I'm just trying to educate some of you Upstate guys a little more about the Low country and what's going on here.  Apparently most of the other Charlestonians already left the forum and went elsewhere, but guess what?  I'm really a Gvegas guy at heart :-).   Just a short 10 years ago I was just like you guys.  

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51 minutes ago, erm1981 said:

Not sure I totally agree with you but we can agree to disagree :-)

If you come from Piedmont or Anderson you will probably take I-85.  Same for Mauldin or Simpsonville if you commute into Greenville down I-385.  You really think those people will come down highway 29 from Anderson or Highway 20 from Piedmont when they can hop onto I-85 or I-385?  Especially if they are working on the other side of Greenville or near Spartanburg.  Hwy. 123 is fairly major route from Easley into Greenville but people also hop on Hwy.  153 to get to I-85 more than not also.  123 takes you right into downtown and not everyone works downtown.

There are plenty of alternate routes here around Charleston to take but its just a little more congested here due to the higher population growth taking place.   Hwy. 52 coming from Moncks Corner towards North Charleston.  Hwy.78 from Summerville to North Charleston.  The new Nexton Parkway will take you around the north part of Summerville(recently opened) .  In case your forgetting Highway 17 is massively traveled here from Mount Pleasant to West Ashley.  I have a route I go from East Bay up Spruill Avenue to Rivers to get over to Ashley Phosphate quite a bit instead of getting on the interstate.  Also Dorchester Rd. runs from upper Summerville almost down to West Ashley.  Another good route to take it down Hwy. 165 to Hwy. 61 into West Ashley from Summerville, SC. Red bank Rd. Is a good alternate route from Goose creek to downtown.  The most isolated place we have here is probably Mount Pleasant.  I think another bridge wouldn't be a bad idea there.  I'd go so far to say that our interstate system is lagging behind Columbia or Greenvilles.  Most of I-526 is only 4 lanes and there is no interstate access to John's Island which is rapidly growing.  

Like I've already said many times i was born and raised in Anderson, SC and worked on many projects in Greenville and Spartanburg during my teens and 20's.  I know the upstate like the back of my hand.  The low country is a total different animal than the rest of the state.  Being that one side of Charleston is water you lack the other half that Columbia or Greenville has. All that growth is pushed back inland and that is one reason Berkley County is one of the fastest growing in the state now.  So you have this aspect and the aspect of having a lot of water everywhere and having to build elevated for a lot of infastructure.  Most buildings here anywhere near the ocean are built on pilings or they tend to sink. 

 I'm just trying to educate some of you Upstate guys a little more about the Low country and what's going on here.  Apparently most of the other Charlestonians already left the forum and went elsewhere, but guess what?  I'm really a Gvegas guy at heart :-).   Just a short 10 years ago I was just like you guys.  

10 years ago is quite a while. Things have changed in lots of places in that time. Including Greenville. If anything Charleston being landlocked and maybe having less roads could contribute to this more congestion feeling. Greenville county has 514k people alone. So I wouldn't think it was necessarily a population thing. Unless they just haven't upgraded the roads.

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I was referring to Greenville County north of I-85.  I am not referring to the commuters from Anderson County.   

Obviously Mauldin  and Simpsonville don't meet that citeria either. They have miles and miles of two lane country roads that filled in with suburban growth. I could not live out there.  Conversely, above 85, I don;t find it necessary to take an interstate or if you do, you are going against the heavy traffic.

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Charleston rush hour and traffic in general is easily the worst in South Carolina. Greenville and Columbia have their rough spots to be sure, but Charleston is on another level. I've been down there when one of the bridges shut down (I think it was the Wando) and it was insane. If you don't live and work in an area such that you don't have to cross one of the major bridges then sooner or later you're going to get screwed by a traffic jam.

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26 minutes ago, Spartan said:

Charleston rush hour and traffic in general is easily the worst in South Carolina. Greenville and Columbia have their rough spots to be sure, but Charleston is on another level. I've been down there when one of the bridges shut down (I think it was the Wando) and it was insane. If you don't live and work in an area such that you don't have to cross one of the major bridges then sooner or later you're going to get screwed by a traffic jam.

I've been down there myself occasionally. Kids mother lives there. The point I'm making is, if it is it isn't because of just population. It's landlocked. You can drive through Richland and Greenville counties in either direction.

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10 hours ago, motonenterprises said:

I've been down there myself occasionally. Kids mother lives there. The point I'm making is, if it is it isn't because of just population. It's landlocked. You can drive through Richland and Greenville counties in either direction.

Charleston is one of the fastest growing metros, their traffic is driven in large part because of population growth.  The geography makes the issue more acute.

and, tourism growth also plays a large part of traffic in Charleston.

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  • 2 weeks later...

City Census Estimates are out.  

Charleston, Greenville and Summerville saw meager population increases last year, and Columbia — which used to be the state’s largest city — saw its population decline for a second consecutive year.

Both North Charleston and Fort Mill gained just over 2,300 residents in 2018. North Charleston is the state’s third-largest city, and those new residents raised the city’s population by just over 2 percent, but in Fort Mill that was a more than 13 percent population increase in a single year.

Fort Mill’s population has climbed an estimated 69 percent since 2010  

  • Mount Pleasant: 2,591
  • Fort Mill: 2,314
  • North Charleston: 2,305
  • Bluffton: 2,301
  • Fountain Inn: 1,365
  • Rock Hill: 1,296
  • Hanahan: 1,214
  • Conway: 1,204
  • Myrtle Beach: 1,173
  • Greer: 1,036
  • Goose Creek: 1,013

Charleston gained fewer than 500 residents while Columbia lost more than 400. Greenville only gained an estimated 295 residents in 2018, two years after that city was estimated to have grown by more than 3,500. 

The most rapid growth in the Charleston metro area, 2010-18:

  • Moncks Corner, 47%, from 7,753 to 11,419
  • Hanahan, 43%, from 18,071 to 25,765
  • Mount Pleasant, 31%, from 67,961 to 89,338
  • Summerville, 20%, from 43,078 to 51,692
  • Goose Creek, 17%, from 36,668 to 42,841
  • North Charleston, 16%, from 97,939 to 113,237
  • Charleston, 13%, from 120,911 to 136,208
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