South Carolina's population growth

[krazeeboi]

I'm trying to figure out what headquarters and engineering has to do with this topic. Keep it on topic, please people.

I think we need to keep everything in perspective and realize that ain't nobody payin' attention to these figures but a very small handful of folks in SC. We surely aren't making any headlines nationally--unless you want to talk about state troopers barrelling down suspects in their cars. Just enjoy your city for what it is and how it's performing, but for the love of God, don't try to make more of things than what they are. Don't let boosterism blind you to reality. And be able to intelligently discuss these matters without getting sensitive and defensive.

[motonenterprises]

Brycola, motonenterprises, & HybridOne. if you attack each other one more time, you are going to be done with this board for a while. This is why I don't like population topics on UrbanPlanet as they turn into nothing but boosterish pissing contests that serve no purpose.

I am tempted to just close this topic since you guys have generally demonstrated there is no point in it.

Monsoon, with all respect due to you I will defend my area when someone attacks it and tries to play it down. Regardless of whom it might be. If you want to ban me there is nothing I can do about that. Everytime I defend you guys want to ban. Stay off offense and I want have to give my opinion to defend my home. If you it makes you feel good temporarily then so be it.

[B&R]

The census estimates list Maricopa County, AZ (Phoenix) as the fastest growing county in the nation with over 800,000 new residents since 2000. Harris Co, TX (Houston)had over 500,000. Now that is astronomical! I don't think I would like to live in a place growing that fast. Unless I was a developer or contractor, or owned a big piece of land.

The argument over population using CSA or similar designations is silly. Using counties like Saluda or Union that are losing population in order to pump up the overall number of the area doesn't make much sense to me. It has some validity for companies looking to build a store in an area but doesn't impact urban life on a day-to-day basis.

When you start seeing serious growth in Laurens, Union, Saluda, Calhoun etc - then they can enter the discussion. That is part of what is interesting and informative in those census estimates.

[Spartan]

Ok folks, we're getting off track. Lets refocus. What are the key points we're getting at in this debate?

• Greenville's MSA is being "sold short" because portions of its "effective MSA" are in two other counties which also happen to have their own MSAs.
  

Thats absolutely true. But what difference does that make in the grand scheme of things? The number of counties an MSA has is irrelevant. Las Vegas has like 1 county, a massive county, and its regularly one of the top in the nation in terms of real astronomical growth. Lets cal our growth in this state what it is: respectable. We are not growing at an "astronomic" rate. Greenville County has seen a very rapid increase, and the Upstate as a whole is growing an a healthy clip. But so is Columbia. So is Charleston.

We're basically all arguing that 6 is better than a half-dozen.

This is why on UrbanPlanet, we always default to the Urban Area statistic when comparing cities like this. Population growth is hard to measure when you have to conform to arbitrary political lines. We're not going to be able to come to a consensus on what this information "really means" so I hope that you will all respect everyone else's opinion and agree to disagree on what it actually means- or at the very least make your arguments more clear so that this debate is more than a pissing contest.

[krazeeboi]

Monsoon, with all respect due to you I will defend my area when someone attacks it and tries to play it down. Regardless of whom it might be. If you want to ban me there is nothing I can do about that. Everytime I defend you guys want to ban. Stay off offense and I want have to give my opinion to defend my home. If you it makes you feel good temporarily then so be it.

What is there to defend? I mean, seriously? Who was "attacking" Greenville or trying to "play it down"? A very legitimate point was brought up about percentages vs. raw numbers and about the role that the other Upstate cities play in the region's growth. If you feel slighted every time someone sees things from another perspective that you feel doesn't make Greenville look like the next Atlanta, perhaps you are too sensitive for these types of discussions and should stop participating. You're simply being overzealously boosterish. And nobody was talking about banning anyone. If you feel that you're being threatened everytime you call yourself "on the defense," perhaps that should tell you something about the way you are approaching these subjects.

[monsoon]

Monsoon, with all respect due to you I will defend my area when someone attacks it and tries to play it down. Regardless of whom it might be. If you want to ban me there is nothing I can do about that. Everytime I defend you guys want to ban. Stay off offense and I want have to give my opinion to defend my home. If you it makes you feel good temporarily then so be it.

Done, you are suspended. BTW, it doesn't make me feel good to suspend you but if you want to act like a spoiled kid then so be it. If anyone else wants to join him, just speak up.

[distortedlogic]

I have to agree that these threads get a little rediculous. On a national scale, Gville, Cola, and Chas are so close in size that, to an out of stater, we would look like silly fools arguing over which one is "bigger." All three areas are seeing healthy growth, bottom line. Now 800k in 7 years is Astronomical! Even some of Atlanta metro counties are growing between 20 and 30k per year, and these are counties which are 1/2 to 1/3 the geographical size of Gville county. So Imagine gville county adding 60-90k in a year! I don't want to see that! Something tells me Gville county, and the other major counties of the state, will continue to grow steadily for sometime, so we should all just enjoy the growth we are seeing, and hope it helps bring about some positive changes to our state and cities. I want to see Gville grow and succeed as much as anyone, but I have no desire to see it turn into other out of control boom areas, or our state to become the next Florida. Guys, in the grand scheme of things, we are arguing about miniscule numbers, and we all know we can use different stats or designation to "show" one area is "bigger of growing faster" than the next. We all have room to be excited about our respective areas growth and success without trying putting down the other areas.

Perhaps more meaningful discussions could be had if we focused more on how growth will impact our respective areas; how the more rural areas will benefit or suffer, what cahnges should be made in government, and how the state can work together to improve our national image on many issues.

Just some thoughts.

[krazeeboi]

Perhaps more meaningful discussions could be had if we focused more on how growth will impact our respective areas; how the more rural areas will benefit or suffer, what cahnges should be made in government, and how the state can work together to improve our national image on many issues.

Just some thoughts.

Precisely. After all, this is UrbanPlanet, not GrowthForTheSakeOfGrowthPlanet.

Even with the moderate, steady growth we're seeing, I think it would be telling if we could see where many of these people are moving to. That might give us a clue as to how much our metro areas are truly urbanizing.

[Spartan]

Good points distortedlogic. What we need to come to realize as a state (read that as "our elected officials need to realize") is that higher growth rates are very possible in the near future. Growth is coming, but we, as a state, do not have the capability to deal with the growth in an effective manner. All of our cities are sprawling in an unhealthy way. The Upstate is particularly bad. All of Spartanburg, most of Anderson, and large chunks of Greenville do not have any zoning at all, yet we're expected to manage a very large volume of people who need urban services. The way we're growing now can't last forever.

[Hybrid0NE]

I want to see Gville grow and succeed as much as anyone, but I have no desire to see it turn into other out of control boom areas, or our state to become the next Florida.

Agreed. I personally, don't want to any part of the Palmetto State become the Next Florida or Atlanta. Then, it would no longer be the South Carolina everyone has grown to love but a knock-off of some ubersprawled region. I'd love it if the leaders in SC would recognize this but it seems like it won't happen until the uniqueness has been traded and transformed everyplace into a big-city with the some of the worst traffic and air quality in the nation.

P.S. Before someone slams me, saying I don't won't SC to grow.. I DO! but, I want it to do so wisely. Especially, when there are so many examples of what not to do in the region.

"The grass isn't always greener on the other side."

Edited March 25, 2008 by Hybrid0NE

[CorgiMatt]

I just want to clarify the acronyms CSA and CBSA. It was pointed out to me in an earlier post that CMSA was incorrect, and it is, but it was said that the correct acronym was CSA. I went on the Census Bureau's website, because I knew 4 letters denoted something or another, and... CBSA = core-based statistical area and CSA = combined statistical area. MSA still means what it always did and the GSA MSA was never dissolved by the Census Bureau.

[Greenville]

This is why I think the setup that exists now with each primary city having its own MSA, while being included in a larger CSA, best reflects that reality. The MSA configurations clearly demonstrate that Spartanburg and Anderson each have enough economic gravity to pull surroundings areas into their economic orbits, while the larger CSA designation show that they also have a reliance on Greenville.

I disagree that the current MSA designations "clearly demonstrate" that Spartanburg and Anderson each pull surrounding areas into their economic orbits. The Spartanburg MSA consists solely of Spartanburg County, while the Anderson MSA consists solely of Anderson County. I don't see any economic pull there at all!

Again, I am not trying to paint Spartanburg and Anderson as suburbs. They clearly aren't. But they are also not metropolitan areas in their own right. It shouldn't be either-or.

At the very least, I do not see why Anderson County is not part of the Greenville MSA. I can see more of a legitimate reason to have Spartanburg viewed as its own MSA, but still it seems that Greenville and Spartanburg are too connected (geographically and economically) to be split.

[teshadoh]

Because Anderson County does not meet the definition of not only dissolving it's own MSA but entering the Greenville MSA. This is because of 2 big factors - Anderson not only has it's own Urbanized Area but there is still a sizable gap between it & the nearest one, Greenville. Lastly, 69% of Anderson County residents still work in Anderson County, while 18% commute to Greenville County.

But the trend is obviously pointing to an eventual merger with Greenville County, the Pelzer area is obviously suburban Greenville & the commuting trends have altered by a few percentage points from 1990 to 2000 in Greenville's favor. Most likely this is occurring partly due to loss of jobs in Anderson County & exurban sprawl from Greenville. So, maybe not in 2010, but at least by 2020 Anderson will be in Greenville's MSA.

Of course - that is how Atlanta sprawl occurs too, neighboring cities & towns whose economy collapsed & exurban sprawl influencing a merger into the Atlanta MSA.

[krazeeboi]

I disagree that the current MSA designations "clearly demonstrate" that Spartanburg and Anderson each pull surrounding areas into their economic orbits. The Spartanburg MSA consists solely of Spartanburg County, while the Anderson MSA consists solely of Anderson County. I don't see any economic pull there at all!

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "clearly." But obviously the data is there that shows, from the perspective of the OMB, that Anderson and Spartanburg have enough of an economic base to warrant them having their own MSAs. As teshadoh indicated, at present the vast majority of Anderson's employment base work in Anderson County. I'm more than certain that the same can be said for Spartanburg. And that's ultimately what MSA designations rest upon--the ability of a core city/county to attract workers within the core jurisdiction and/or from surrounding areas. There might not be as much pull there as in Greenville or Columbia or Charleston, but it's there.

Also, I don't think that Greenville is yet large enough in order to have a greater effect on Anderson and Spartanburg economically that would have prevented the two from being broken off into their own MSAs. I say that because, in particular, Anderson County's relationship to Greenville County is similar to York's relationship to Mecklenburg. Rock Hill is roughly the same size as Anderson, with smaller adjacent cities that gravitate more to the larger city in the metro. Due to Charlotte's size and economic impact on York, York County is not its own MSA--but it very would could be if Charlotte didn't exert so much economic influence over it. But at the same time, it's that economic influence that largely accounts for York County's rapid growth. I think if economic developments in the Upstate continue to be somewhat spread out amongst the three core counties, with Greenville still accounting for most of the developments, we might have the present situation we do for a little while longer. I think that's possibly why in this area, Lancaster County got split off from the Charlotte MSA and became its own micropolitan area. As more companies have jumped the border from Mecklenburg into Lancaster (and still continue to do so), more Lancaster residents can afford to stay within the county to work, resulting in less of a direct economic reliance on Mecklenburg although there is still an overarching association with Mecklenburg--which the CSA designation demonstrates. To bring it back to the Upstate, I would say that BMW being in Spartanburg County is what largely accounts for Spartanburg County being its own MSA, because more county residents can afford to stay within the county for work (and I don't think it can be argued that BMW doesn't represent substantial economic pull). If VW were to locate a manufacturing facility in Anderson County, expect Anderson to remain a separate MSA for a couple of more years because it would cause the same thing to happen there--less people needing to cross the county border for employment.

[CarolinaSouth]

Agreed. I personally, don't want to any part of the Palmetto State become the Next Florida or Atlanta. Then, it would no longer be the South Carolina everyone has grown to love but a knock-off of some ubersprawled region. I'd love it if the leaders in SC would recognize this but it seems like it won't happen until the uniqueness has been traded and transformed everyplace into a big-city with the some of the worst traffic and air quality in the nation.

P.S. Before someone slams me, saying I don't won't SC to grow.. I DO! but, I want it to do so wisely. Especially, when there are so many examples of what not to do in the region.

"The grass isn't always greener on the other side."

I feel the same way. Sure i want SC to grow, but i don't want it to be at the expense of becoming Sprawl Carolina. The only thing i wish for is that...once i have children, SC is still a wonderful place for them to be! I've seen so much change in this state during my life time in each area. I can remember going to Myrtle Beach during the "off-season" and getting expensive rooms for a little of nothing and having no one there but a few locals. Now look at the place...it's becoming more and more year around and increasing in attractions. I can remember travelling to Greenville and feeling like i wasted a trip...i now can enjoy myself when i'm there and the improvements are vast. I can say the same about Charleston...i use to think to myself..."mental note"...stay away from King St, Rommney St, Spring St and Spruill Ave [N. Charleston]. Now alot of those areas have been improved and i love walking on the Battery, and to various spots on E. Bay st and King St. It was easier for me to enjoy Columbia because that's were i was from...but i can greatly see the improvements. The razing of notoriously bad areas, the renewed focus of downtown and creating urban parks and areas, diversifying the job market to rely less on gov and military business. I could continue but i'm sure my point is either made or not by now.

[GvilleSC]

To bring it back to the Upstate, I would say that BMW being in Spartanburg County is what largely accounts for Spartanburg County being its own MSA, because more county residents can afford to stay within the county for work (and I don't think it can be argued that BMW doesn't represent substantial economic pull). If VW were to locate a manufacturing facility in Anderson County, expect Anderson to remain a separate MSA for a couple of more years because it would cause the same thing to happen there--less people needing to cross the county border for employment.

I understand that commuting patterns dictate the designations, but there's some things that black and white data can't tell you. You bring up BMW, which I have a hard time believing is what tipped the scale for Spartanburg to really stand on its own. Let's be honest for a few minutes... BMW, while being located in Spartanburg County is just as much, if not MORE, of a Greenville business/development. I'd be interested in seeing numbers for exactly how many people employed by the company's plant live in each county.

And despite the commuting patterns for the plant, BMW seems to have a closer connection to Greenville being its home.

Edited March 25, 2008 by GvilleSC

[krazeeboi]

I understand that commuting patterns dictate the designations, but there's some things that black and white data can't tell you. You bring up BMW, which I have a hard time believing is what tipped the scale for Spartanburg to really stand on its own. Let's be honest for a few minutes... BMW, while being located in Spartanburg County is just as much, if not MORE, of a Greenville business/development. I'd be interested in seeing numbers for exactly how many people employed by the company's plant live in each county.

And despite the commuting patterns for the plant, BMW seems to have a closer connection to Greenville being its home.

The thing about BMW being located in Spartanburg County is that it actually results in more people commuting from Greenville County into Spartanburg County for work instead of vice versa (as it relates to BMW itself), and less people having to leave Spartanburg County for work. I don't deny that BMW is largely looked at as something that both cities/counties share (because essentially it is), but I think this is one instance when the actual geographical location of the plant means something. If it were located just a few more miles to the west just within the borders of Greenville County, I'd be willing to bet that Greenville and Spartanburg would be one MSA, even with the redefined metro designations.

I don't think that, at this point, there's really any one statistical measure that can fully do justice to the interrelationships that exist in multinodal metro areas like the Upstate. If GSA were to get recombined into one MSA, the Greenville folks would be happy, but it's possible that some of the Spartanburg and Anderson folks wouldn't because their cities would no longer individually stand out as the lead center in their own metros, even if they are smaller. It's funny that you really only see people from the larger city in the metros that were broken up complaining about the new designations. There wasn't really any outcry from the folks in Spartanburg, Durham, Winston-Salem, etc.

[erm1981]

I wouldnt be happy.

[GvilleSC]

I wouldnt be happy.

Erm, you're one of those people who is a part of greater Greenville, but you're included in Anderson's numbers...

[Spartan]

I don't think that, at this point, there's really any one statistical measure that can fully do justice to the interrelationships that exist in multinodal metro areas like the Upstate. If GSA were to get recombined into one MSA, the Greenville folks would be happy, but it's possible that some of the Spartanburg and Anderson folks wouldn't because their cities would no longer individually stand out as the lead center in their own metros, even if they are smaller. It's funny that you really only see people from the larger city in the metros that were broken up complaining about the new designations. There wasn't really any outcry from the folks in Spartanburg, Durham, Winston-Salem, etc.

The reason is that there is a certain amount of money that is allocated from the Fed at the MSA level, so Spartanburg and Anderson get "less" in terms of control over how that money is spent. I'll add that I don't know how much money or what the money is alloted for. I just know that it exists.

For the most part, individual people won't care one way or the other. The only advantage of having one large MSA is that you can say we have 1.2 million people and there is no arguing room. This may appeal to Greenville to an extent because they can say without any arguement that they are the "heart of a region of 1.2 million." From a statistical perspective it won't change anything. We will still have plenty of existing and future sprawl to contend with regardless of how the Upstate is split up.

[monsoon]

The commuting pattern thing is not hard set in stone. A county can petition not to be included in an MSA and often use the fact to their advantage. One of the best examples of this that I know of is Statesville/Iredell county that is directly north of and connects to Mecklenburg (Charlotte). They bill themselves as one of of the leading micropolitian areas in the country with a lot of growth, great economy, good quality of life, etc etc. They would not be able to do this if they were included in the Charlotte MSA as they would get washed out with the other counties that make that up.

[erm1981]

Well I found an interesting article about Greer and its growth. They estimated to have had a 33% growth in population from 2000-2007 which is pretty incredible. Here is the article.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs....NEWS01/80326007

Edited March 26, 2008 by erm1981

[krazeeboi]

According to the latest Census Bureau estimates, Myrtle Beach was the sixth fastest-growing metro area in the nation from 2006-2007.

[monsoon]

Well I found an interesting article about Greer and its growth. They estimated to have had a 33% growth in population from 2000-2007 which is pretty incredible. Here is the article.

Pretty Incredible? We are talking about 5600 people over the course of 6 years. A little over 900/year. There are condo towers in the state that hold more people than this.

[Greenville]

Pretty Incredible? We are talking about 5600 people over the course of 6 years. A little over 900/year. There are condo towers in the state that hold more people than this.

I think erm's point is that the growth, in relative terms, was quite impressive. You can't compare that to the growth experienced by larger cities (which have more jobs, services, and amenities to draw residents).