Columbia compared to other cities

[GvilleSC]

As an outsider looking into Greenville being as unbias as possible, the best thing Greenville has for it is it's Main Street. It is impressive but after only a few blocks it turns out to be pedestrian-unfriendly. It just seems more boring to be honest. This is coming from a college student that has only went out with his friends in Greenville. Columbia, on the other hand, always seems to have something to do.

[CorgiMatt]

You can walk from West Columbia across the Congaree River into the Vista, up Gervais through the Vista to the capitol, then either up Main or down Main, or on up Gervais to Harden and into Five Points with a sidewalk all the way. You can walk up or down any number of streets in the Main Street District (as they now call it), or within the Vista or within Five Points, or from one district to another using any number of streets and never leave a sidewalk except when you're crossing at an intersection. There are a couple of places in the Vista where for some reason you're without a sidewalk for one block: Park from Gervais to Senate and Gadsden from Lady to Gervais, but there's plenty of room to walk beside the street anyway. Other than that, you have one huge, continuous grid system lined with sidewalks for blocks and blocks and blocks, north and south and east and west. If you look at a map of the city of Columbia and study the grid system, rest assured there are very few blocks within that grid system that don't have sidewalks, and the few that do don't have any reason for anyone to be walking there anyway.

[GvilleSC]

You can walk from West Columbia across the Congaree River into the Vista, up Gervais through the Vista to the capitol, then either up Main or down Main, or on up Gervais to Harden and into Five Points with a sidewalk all the way. You can walk up or down any number of streets in the Main Street District (as they now call it), or within the Vista or within Five Points, or from one district to another using any number of streets and never leave a sidewalk except when you're crossing at an intersection. There are a couple of places in the Vista where for some reason you're without a sidewalk for one block: Park from Gervais to Senate and Gadsden from Lady to Gervais, but there's plenty of room to walk beside the street anyway. Other than that, you have one huge, continuous grid system lined with sidewalks for blocks and blocks and blocks, north and south and east and west. If you look at a map of the city of Columbia and study the grid system, rest assured there are very few blocks within that grid system that don't have sidewalks, and the few that do don't have any reason for anyone to be walking there anyway.

[krazeeboi]

GvilleSC has a a point. There has to be continuous blocks lined with retail/restaurants in order to truly be a pedestrian draw. At present, Columbia does this in spurts in a few different areas, while Main Street in Greenville does a much better job of doing this over more blocks.

[CorgiMatt]

How many blocks can you go in Five Points, the Vista, or Main Street before you look the pedestrian friendliness?

[krazeeboi]

A sidewalk on a country road is pedestrian friendly, and I don't think there's much retail going on in the country.

[CorgiMatt]

That's a narrow definition.

[krazeeboi]

It's pretty much the standard definition when discussing urban issues.

[waccamatt]

Well, to be honest I didn't really understand this question (English major here), but I think I explained in general how many blocks you can walk and still be walking in a pedestrian-friendly setting. A sidewalk on a country road is pedestrian friendly, and I don't think there's much retail going on in the country. And actually the number of walkers and joggers traversing the Gervais Street bridge is ever increasing, although I will admit no one walks from the Vista to Five Points. But then no one walks from SoJo to Chelsea in Manhattan either.

But if the comparison point were to be territory in cities covered by infrastructure that is already in place for urban infill, Columbia's is massive.

[CorgiMatt]

Well, on the subject of pedestrian-friendliness maybe we should ask the attendees of the National Advocacy Center, who can be seen walking in bands every evening from the NAC in the heart of the University Neighborhood to the Vista and back, or to Five Points and back. What they have to look at en route is Columbia's version of the Mall area in Washington, D.C., if they go to the Vista and back, including massive statues, gorgeous flower gardens, huge ancient trees and Trinity Episcopal Cathedral. There's the beautiful architecture of the State House and the institutional aura of Senate Street. On the Five Points side there's shade-filled Greene Street or the historic homes of the University Neighborhood along Pendleton Street. And from the Vista to Five Points, there's the capitol-Horseshoe-University Neighborhood route, all of which is beautiful. Actually the only route from the Vista to Five Points that is ugly for a portion is Gervais to Harden and into Five Points. The same routes apply to USC students, and that would explain why lots of times I think I'm seeing a band of NAC people and realize it's a band of USC-aged people. Columbia is a lovely city for stollers, and may I add that the sidewalks are wide.

[BrasilnSC]

I've walked from the Vista back to my house in 5 pts more times than I can count. Senate and Pendleton are gorgeous routes with large trees and historic homes and College St takes you right through the heart of campus, and they are all well lit at night. It's a nice 20 minute walk, especially after a few.

[CorgiMatt]

In this week's Free Times there's an article about Duncan Donuts expanding in the Midlands. The president of Greer-based Kainos Partners, Bart Thorne says the 1202 Main Street location is prime because of the high-rise going up across the street and the streetscaping. He also says, "There's a real buzz about the Midlands. People are looking to move here from Florida and the Northeast because of the quality of life, the cost of living and other factors." Looks like it won't be long before the Vista, the Main street District, USC, Five Points and Devine Street are one big pedestrian-friendly, urban experience.

[Spartan]

In terms of pedestrian friendliness, Greenville and Columbia are about the same.

We all agree that sidewalks alone are not a qualifier for pedestrian friendliness. At the same time, you can't assume that the only way to achieve pedestrian friendliness is by re-creating 5 Points everywhere or Greenville's Main Street everywhere. How can you compare Five Points to Shandon? Are they not equally pedestrian friendly? the answer is that they are, and you can find plenty of examples of this in Greenville too.

You can safely make the argument that Columbia has a larger urban core to work with, but IMO Columbia also has more issues to resolve that Greenville (in terms of the downtown urban core) regarding pedestrian friendliness. Columbia has has a lot more warehouse industry located at the heart of the city, and has more major traffic arterial that slice things up... the main issue for Columbia is tying it all together.

[krazeeboi]

As I've said before, in terms of how downtown is laid out, I think that for the most part, Columbia has done the best it could with the hand it was dealt. When you've got the old Columbia Mill (now the state museum) at one end, the mental health campus at another, and the heart of USC at another, that means it's no small task in trying to tie everything together. Even though many of the attractions/destinations of downtown aren't clustered together like they are in Greenville, I think one would be hard pressed to say that it was a mistake renovating the old Columbia Mill to house the State Museum, or overhauling former Sidney Park, originally the site of a railyard which had fallen into disrepair, to create Finlay Park, or breathing new life into downtown's warehouse district by rehabbing and reusing those old industrial buildings along Gervais. The only missing piece right now is an overarching downtown master plan that puts special emphasis on the corridors that connect these diverse areas of downtown in order to tie up the loose ends.

[CorgiMatt]

But my goodness, consider Washington, D.C., where I lived for five years - such wide boulevards throughout the city. Yet we don't speak in terms of D.C's doing the best it can with the hand it was dealt. It is a massive, contiguously urban city with very wide boulevards to cross. To get from Dupont Circle to downtown entails the subway, a taxi ride, a bus ride, a drive, or a longer walk than from the Vista to Five Points. Columbia's contiguously urban core takes up a lot of space.

[Spartan]

Thats a good point Corgi. But look at how DC sets up their crossings. Columbia is not on the same page. SCDOT isn't either.

[krazeeboi]

I consider DC to almost be the antithesis of Columbia in terms of urbanity. Columbia has tons of surface parking, unutilized, and underutilized land downtown, whereas vacant property doesn't stay vacant for very long in DC. Even fringe areas of the DC region, like Ballston, beat the crap out of the downtown of not just Columbia, but just about any Southern/Sunbelt downtown, in terms of urbanity and the built environment.

The reason we don't speak about DC in terms of doing the best it could do is because its potential has pretty much been maximized, and is continuously being maximized. The District is virtually built-out. It arguably has the 2nd best, most extensive transit network in the US. It has one of the best job markets in the entire country. The reality is that Columbia has none of those qualities and there are multiple obvious gaps in the urban fabric of downtown Columbia. I fail to see how that can be disputed.

Also, understand that what I mean by contiguous is uninterrupted, as in the built environment. The transition between Dupont Circle and downtown is practically seamless. That cannot be said for the Vista to Five Points.

The comparison to DC here does much more to expose Columbia's flaws here than reveal its strengths IMO.

[CorgiMatt]

The comparison brings to light Columbia's potential more so than its flaws. The grid system and width of the streets in each city are comparable. When I lived in Washington it was not what it is now, believe me. There were many empty lots in the dowtown area, and many more abandoned properties on the fringe areas of the downtown core. Potential is potential as far as the built environment environment goes when you have a huge unbroken grid system.

[krazeeboi]

^Because both cities are planned capital cities, I agree with you in that regard. I also realize that DC has come a long way in a relatively short period of time. Hopefully, the same will be said of Columbia in the not-so-distant future.

[waccamatt]

While DC has come a long way, there are still huge swaths of the city, away from the touristy areas, that have a long, long way to go.

[CorgiMatt]

And as far as pedestrian friendliness is concerned (again), while some of Columbia's large intersections need improved aesthetics so that they seem less intimidating, I'll never see what's so hard about crossing a wide street with walk/don't walk signs, clearly marked pedestrian lines and a clock that counts down starting at 25 seconds (nearly half a minute), with a large median in the middle to stand on if you can't make it across in that amount of time.

[distortedlogic]

Guys, in reading through this thread I have to say that I am pretty disappointed at our conversation. It seems we always end up in a pissing contest when we try to discuss these things, and we start bashing the place where others enjoy living. I have been to all of SCs big 4 over the past year, and I have enjoyed seeing the new developments and existing attractions that are unique to each. Admittedly, there are some thigs that the others have that I "wish" Greenville had, and some things that I appreciate more about Greenville after visiting the others. We really need to stop trying to argue that one is "better" or "more desirable" than another, as these are unwinnable arguments. I confess that I personally prefer to live in one over the others, but that does not mean that I think the others are unihabitable or undesirable. Each city and metro has a lot to offer, and a lot to improve upon. There is really nothing "wrong" with Columbia, Charleston, Greenville, or MB; it is all just in what people prefer. Be glad that our "small" state has so much to offer in terms of quality metros, attractions, scenery, diversity, and experience. I think we will all do better if we can learn to compliment each other a little more. It will make for more enjoyable blogging, and probably send better impressions of our cities and state to others who may be thinking of moving here.

[Spartan]

Thats why the staff here generally avoids these kinds of threads, because like you said they usually devolve into pissing contests.

If you're going to go for the Big "4" adjective (which I'm all for) you need to give the 4th place to Spartanburg, which is for the time being the 4th largest in the state. Myrtle Beach may feel larger, but its not.

[krazeeboi]

Here's an article from the Columbia Business Report about a trip business leaders and members of the chamber of commerce took to Greenville. Not a whole lot in the way of detail, but I just thought I'd post it anyway.

I'm pretty sure there will be some disagreement as to the first sentence in the article, but I implore you guys to keep things civil. Even though I think redevelopment in both city cores are roughly equal in terms of the amount of projects going on, I think there may be differences concerning how each contributes to and fits with the urban fabric, which is probably what that sentence refers to.

[Spartan]

IMO the last sentence says more than the first.

In general I don't see how they can make the claim that Columbia is not keeping pace with Greenville. I think people are sometimes too myopic and only looking at Main Street as to what is "downtown" Columbia. But if thats the issue, they need only look at the last sentence. Put pedestrians first. Stop building CRAPPY skyscrapers on Main Street and Columbia will transform for the better.