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GRDadof3

Beating victim dies, suspects to be charged

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Very sad. No matter what was said in the bar...nobody should get beaten up for it.

I hope they find and convict all of the guilty people.

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I hope that the judicial system makes a public spectacle of the perps. Permanent yuccky highway median clean-up duty? Water plant maintenance work? High school assemblies where they have to explain that they had a few and then killed someone?

Sure, they are all "good" kids who "never get into trouble." We need to send a message that this is unacceptable.

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I hope that the judicial system makes a public spectacle of the perps. Permanent yuccky highway median clean-up duty? Water plant maintenance work? High school assemblies where they have to explain that they had a few and then killed someone?

Sure, they are all "good" kids who "never get into trouble." We need to send a message that this is unacceptable.

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I have been to that bar although its not my scene either but you can blame it on the bar itself. No one should ever have to die like that, this is a tragedy but if there is troubl ein the bar they are not going to follow people outside a couple blocks away to make sure they are safe. If that place gets closed then there will just be the same thing at another place. These "macho" young people are always going to be here and there will just be problems at a different place like in the past at the kentwood center or the orbit room or rag on pearl. The fact that he died is sad but he shoud have waited to leave with his brothers or friends instead of walking by himself after a confrontation

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There seems to be an uncomfortable trend in places like these. The places that are 18and over only and 21 to drink just suck. I went to CMU and we had a bar called the Wayside... exact same crap. 18 and 19 year olds , many drunk by their 21 - year old friends sneaking beer to them, super-machismo all over the place. Fights, arguments, trips to jail/ER/etc. I can think of a few places that allow 18 year olds in that have these problems alot. Margarita Grille, Wayside at CMU, the old Sparty's in East Lansing. I think that no one under 21 gets into ANY late-night drinking establishment. I don;t know who killed this kid, but my money is that at least some of them were under 21.

Most 18 year olds are too emotional to handle a bar scene, IMO.

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Having kids myself, I don't know what I would do if I were the parents of the dead guy. Although some people might disagree, not only would I want these kids put away long enough that it ruins their chances of ever living a normal life, but I would be going after the bar too. If someone leaves a bar and kills someone drunk driving, how is this any different? The bar would be liable in that case.

I'd sue the bar owners into non-existence.

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Does anyone really believe that sober people could kick a man to death? I could easily convince a jury that the perps actions were a result of the bar's practices. It might make bars think about what kind of atmosphere they are creating.

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Yeah, like keeping kids that can't drink legally out of a DRINKING establishment.

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I'm with GRDad on this one...

Assuming those guilty were drunk and had been drinking at 'the grill'- how is this ANY different than a drunk driver crashing their car into someone on their way home from the bar?

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I'm with GRDad on this one...

Assuming those guilty were drunk and had been drinking at 'the grill'- how is this ANY different than a drunk driver crashing their car into someone on their way home from the bar?

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GRD - unfortunately maybe. Rick and Scott had a caller this morning who called in to say that it was 8=10 gang members and it was a initiation thing. She (the caller) said that she had a strong source and it would come out sometime today. Eitherway, it is a horrible event for the family and our city.

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Never underestimate the power of a parent who has lost a child in such an unjust way. As I said, bars are responsible for the levels of drunkenness within their establishments and after people leave their establishments. Of course a bar can't walk all its patrons home, but they can control how much alcohol is consumed and the scene in their bars.

Does anyone really believe that sober people could kick a man to death? I could easily convince a jury that the perps actions were a result of the bar's practices. It might make bars think about what kind of atmosphere they are creating.

If I owned Margarita Grill, I'd be seriously reviewing my entire business model and policies.

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I liken making a drinking establishment 18+ to Camel cigarettes having cartoon characters endorse their brand. They had to stop the practice because it directly targeted minors. 18+ places are going to be clubs trying to create a party atmosphere. When you're 18 years old and no longer under your parents roof, most want to party.

Clubs get these kids hooked for a few years and when they turn 21 (although we all know they're drinking anyway....it's in the parking lot before heading in or at their dorm or apartments) it becomes the place they knew and hung out at. Naturally you've created a regular, just like nicotine does for cigarettes. Compound that with a college budget for ramen noodles, Hollister, and bar drink specials; these college kids are not going to your Green Well, Hop Cat, or Bistro. They're going to go where the drinks are cheap and the crowd cheaper.

Whenever there's a party, there's always going to be a David Wooderson, Matthew McConaughey's character in Dazed and Confused. Not necessarily the old creepy guy checking out the high school chicks, but the unsavory character preying on the masses looking for the good time. Be it the drug dealer, the after hours party guy, the "pseudo" high roller, etc.

I'm all for an establishment trying to make money, however, there does need to be some accountability. Ban people who are trouble, enforce a strict dress code, don't allow attitude in the establishment (and it starts at the door, not when someone has had a couple drinks) and make sure people are safe, inside and out. Hire security guards to patrol outside of the establishment to make sure what happens inside doesn't spill outside. I didn't say anything about over serving because that's a fine line. I'd say watch the excessive serving, but if I walk into an establishment and order a beer and a shot (a boilermaker), down it, pay for it and walk out, I've been over served because I'm going to blow above the .08 legal limit.

Margarita Grill is holding a benefit for Jono....but wouldn't you know it entails drink specials. It's great that all profits are going to his family, but let's hope they're strict and very vigilant about who walks through their doors. I'm not piling on Margarita Grill because of the place it is, this type of violence has happened before and will again. Let's not forget a beating and death at Stooges (now Rumor's) some years back. The tragic death next to Duke's, at Wing On. Because someone parked there illegally and was approached about it, they felt it within their right to punch a frail older man. There's also been a beating death outside of the steps of The Bob. Or if you want to expand the scope of things and how important it is for these places to control and be vigilant on their patrons, there's the drug death of a Grandville girl after leaving Monte's. And she died at the hands of a Kevin Obie, who happened to be a drug informer for the city along with having a little business on the side. Or the stabbing at Gardella's a few months ago.

Along with these establishments needing to be more vigilant on the behavior of their patrons, the city really needs to take a long hard look at establishments that allow 18+ service. And while it's easy to pile on Margarita Grill because frankly it's one of the worst establishments downtown, it's not isolated to that place. It's the culture it attracts that needs to be nipped in the bud.

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Does anyone really believe that sober people could kick a man to death?

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Never underestimate the power of a parent who has lost a child in such an unjust way. As I said, bars are responsible for the levels of drunkenness within their establishments and after people leave their establishments. Of course a bar can't walk all its patrons home, but they can control how much alcohol is consumed and the scene in their bars.

Does anyone really believe that sober people could kick a man to death? I could easily convince a jury that the perps actions were a result of the bar's practices. It might make bars think about what kind of atmosphere they are creating.

If I owned Margarita Grill, I'd be seriously reviewing my entire business model and policies.

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I liken making a drinking establishment 18+ to Camel cigarettes having cartoon characters endorse their brand. They had to stop the practice because it directly targeted minors. 18+ places are going to be clubs trying to create a party atmosphere. When you're 18 years old and no longer under your parents roof, most want to party.

Clubs get these kids hooked for a few years and when they turn 21 (although we all know they're drinking anyway....it's in the parking lot before heading in or at their dorm or apartments) it becomes the place they knew and hung out at. Naturally you've created a regular, just like nicotine does for cigarettes. Compound that with a college budget for ramen noodles, Hollister, and bar drink specials; these college kids are not going to your Green Well, Hop Cat, or Bistro. They're going to go where the drinks are cheap and the crowd cheaper.

Whenever there's a party, there's always going to be a David Wooderson, Matthew McConaughey's character in Dazed and Confused. Not necessarily the old creepy guy checking out the high school chicks, but the unsavory character preying on the masses looking for the good time. Be it the drug dealer, the after hours party guy, the "pseudo" high roller, etc.

I'm all for an establishment trying to make money, however, there does need to be some accountability. Ban people who are trouble, enforce a strict dress code, don't allow attitude in the establishment (and it starts at the door, not when someone has had a couple drinks) and make sure people are safe, inside and out. Hire security guards to patrol outside of the establishment to make sure what happens inside doesn't spill outside. I didn't say anything about over serving because that's a fine line. I'd say watch the excessive serving, but if I walk into an establishment and order a beer and a shot (a boilermaker), down it, pay for it and walk out, I've been over served because I'm going to blow above the .08 legal limit.

Margarita Grill is holding a benefit for Jono....but wouldn't you know it entails drink specials. It's great that all profits are going to his family, but let's hope they're strict and very vigilant about who walks through their doors. I'm not piling on Margarita Grill because of the place it is, this type of violence has happened before and will again. Let's not forget a beating and death at Stooges (now Rumor's) some years back. The tragic death next to Duke's, at Wing On. Because someone parked there illegally and was approached about it, they felt it within their right to punch a frail older man. There's also been a beating death outside of the steps of The Bob. Or if you want to expand the scope of things and how important it is for these places to control and be vigilant on their patrons, there's the drug death of a Grandville girl after leaving Monte's. And she died at the hands of a Kevin Obie, who happened to be a drug informer for the city along with having a little business on the side. Or the stabbing at Gardella's a few months ago.

Along with these establishments needing to be more vigilant on the behavior of their patrons, the city really needs to take a long hard look at establishments that allow 18+ service. And while it's easy to pile on Margarita Grill because frankly it's one of the worst establishments downtown, it's not isolated to that place. It's the culture it attracts that needs to be nipped in the bud.

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A few thoughts.

The idea of bringing some sort of lawsuit against the bar to me is ridiculous. I know it happens, and people win cases, but what ever happened to personal responsibility? I think to PHTPL's point, a lot of it has to do with "inexperienced drinkers" I would think a civil case against the felons would be the appropriate route, granted they probably have much more shallow pockets.

I can say this, I've bartending in downtown for a number of years as a fun extra job. I know for a fact that many of the bars (including the one in question) put employees through TIPS training.

That being said, and to the inexperienced drinker point, binge drinking at ANY place that has a lot of 21-23 year olds is a huge problem. If I'm sitting in my Dorm/Apartment in Allendale, ripping shots of 100 proof Rumplemintz with my buddies for an hour, then drive down to the bar, by the time I get there, I'm probably still "looking ok". I probably can drink for an hour or 2 without anyone expecting I'd already done 5-10 shots (with those enough in themselves to make you legally drunk for 5+ hours), prior to getting to the bar. There are SOOO many factors that play into how alcohol effects people and at what rate (anyone who drinks can vouch for this). I can say that most places will quickly cut people off, once it's noted that they're intoxicated. The MLCC can revoke/suspend/fine your license for serving an obviously intoxicated person.

Just something to keep in mind before you start blaming establishments/bartenders/servers.

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Maybe I was a bit harsh on the lawsuit aspects, but I definitely think the city needs to rethink their allowance of under 21 clubs to be able to serve alcohol. I believe in East Lansing now any bar serving alcohol, you have to be 21 to enter. Anyone know for sure?

Six identified suspects are now going to be charged

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I'm all for an establishment trying to make money, however, there does need to be some accountability. Ban people who are trouble, enforce a strict dress code,

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edited for vulgarity

And as for the bar owners being responsible for the level of drunken-ness of the patrons, they may bear some responsibility, but nowhere near as much as the people who actually do the drinking. Let's break it down:

A person drinks on purpose;

therefore that person gets drunk on purpose;

therefore that person leaves the bar drunk, on purpose;

therefore that person gets into the car drunk, on purpose;

therefore that person drives drunk, on purpose;

therefore that person drunkenly causes an accident, on purpose.

This same chain of reasoning applies to every act performed while intoxicated.

If the victim of a drunk driving accident dies, it should be tried as first degree murder, since everything which led to the accident was pre-meditated. If the victim does not die, then the driver is guilty of attempted murder, plus any other charges related to injuries sustained by the victim.

Saying that acts performed under the influence are somehow different from acts performed sober does nothing other than confuse the issue, and is an unseelmy attempt to somehow dilute the level of responsibility who chose to drink.

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