Misc. Uptown Projects/News

[Bikeguy]

^ and don't leave out the Oakwood neighborhood and the resurgence that is happening along Person. Very 4th Ward(ish), but much, much larger.   

[nakers2]

I agree with everyone's points here, but in regards to the skyline growth, a category in which Charlotte is the winner by far, I'm talking more about the streetscape, I didn't spend much time looking up in Raleigh, and that's okay. I also do like the fact Charlotte has more neighborhoods outside of Uptown, but in this case I was talking specifically about the city center. 

[SgtCampsalot]

Isn't Raleigh's 440 loop way bigger than Charlotte's 277? I'm pretty sure Raleigh's "downtown" encompasses a similar square mileage as Charlotte's entire "inner ring" neighborhoods, no? 277 is pretty small, so it has probably helped Charlotte's "downtown" grow in a completely detached way from its other neighborhoods, allowing for more firm identities to be carved out for each, something that is hard to easily notice in Raleigh.

Edit: This is a pretty awesome tool to help in this inquiry...

Looks like Raleigh's inside-440 area is roughly 25.7 sq miles, and Charlotte's neighborhoods' area (that I feel is reasonably able to be developed in the near future for urban-style development) is roughly 23.4 sq miles. Admittedly, I don't know Raleigh very well, so there be may areas outside the loop that are great urban centers, and areas inside the loop that aren't, but clearly the size of these two cities' urban loops affected how they grew...

Edited February 20, 2017 by SgtCampsalot

[Spartan]

15 hours ago, nakers2 said:

I think this would be relevant to post here: I visited downtown Raleigh yesterday after attending an auto show nearby and I was very pleasantly surprised. (I visit Raleigh often actually, but admit I have not spent much time downtown) The overall retail and restaurant scene was very, what I'd call organic, compared to Charlotte. You could tell that some of these restaurants had been there for years, show me a restaurant in Uptown that's been there since 1930, I can't think of one. Many of their historic buildings were also still standing, especially along Fayetteville Street, their version of Tryon, except with wide and consistent sidewalks, and room for parking and bike lanes. The restaurant we ate in was one of two inside a former Piggly Wiggly grocery store, and their transit center in built into the bottom floor of a parking garage, not freestanding like the CTC. There were convenience stores and even, a small locally owned grocery store that you could tell had been there for a long time. I noted a Subway that was still open despite being late, providing more affordable eats than just high end restaurants and bars. And keep in mind all of these observations were taken within the span of a few blocks, not the entirety of downtown.  

I know some people on here are rather familiar with Raleigh and this is no news to them, but Charlotte could really take a page out of Raleigh's book, I know we cannot rebuild what we tore down, but the good spread of restaurants and shops, compared to Charlotte's clusters (think Epicenter) were really nice and allowed for a more enjoyable walk. I also felt like the blocks were smaller in Raleigh, or at least the streetscape made it seem that way. I'm not really trying to make any specific point with this post, but overall quite frankly I feel a bit jealous and wonder what massive center city we could have if Charlotte had not been so quick with the wrecking ball. 

When I look at how urban a place is, the last thing on my list is height of buildings and how dynamic the skyline is. Charlotte unquestionably has a better skyline, but the urban fabric is lacking (albiet improving). You can compare to a place like Charleston which has very few high rises but has a rich urban environment and is incredibly walkable. Raleigh has a more spread out/naturally occurring restaurant scene and I think it's to their benefit they they don't have to retrofit lobbies to make it happen. I think the fact that they weren't a boomtown in the 60s/70s/80s really served them well in terms of preserving some of their core/historic building inventory (though not as much as Asheville, which was virtually untouched).

Raleigh's downtown does have a lot going for it - with their lack of an equivalent to I-277 being one of the biggest advantages - but at the end of the day we still have more going on. They might have a cool natural history museum and a greater variety of restaurants right now, but we have tons of sports and entertainment options that they don't have. Our restaurant options are rapidly expanding and our residential population is going to grow quite a bit by the next census. We also have the 1st ring neighborhoods and transit connections that they don't.

 

21 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Isn't Raleigh's 440 loop way bigger than Charlotte's 277? I'm pretty sure Raleigh's "downtown" encompasses a similar square mileage as Charlotte's entire "inner ring" neighborhoods, no? 277 is pretty small, so it has probably helped Charlotte's "downtown" grow in a completely detached way from its other neighborhoods, allowing for more firm identities to be carved out for each, something that is hard to easily notice in Raleigh.

Edit: This is a pretty awesome tool to help in this inquiry...

Looks like Raleigh's inside-440 area is roughly 25.7 sq miles, and Charlotte's neighborhoods' area (that I feel is reasonably able to be developed in the near future for urban-style development) is roughly 23.4 sq miles. Admittedly, I don't know Raleigh very well, so there be may areas outside the loop that are great urban centers, and areas inside the loop that aren't, but clearly the size of these two cities' urban loops affected how they grew...

You can't compare 440 to 277. It would be more accurate to compare it to Route 4. North of Wade Ave is incredibly suburban, and SW of NC State's campus isn't exactly an urban paradise. I wouldn't call either of them area that could urbanize at all.

Generally the best way to compare the areas that feel urban is to look at the side of each city's street network around 1950. That's when the transition to cars started to go strong and America in general moved away from walkable places. IMO, it's going to take a lot more to make those places truly walkable.

 

[tozmervo]

One big thing Raleigh has going for it over Charlotte is the benefits of being the state capital: all of it's major cultural institutions get some sweet taxpayer money & free admission. The Mint, etc, get some tax money via ASC but don't otherwise receive nearly the funding that the NC Museum of Art does.

[Matthew.Brendan]

I mean, I'm absolutely a proponent of "what you know" and where you come from. Of course there is nostalgia for where you originate. But holy cow, Charlotte is 20? 19? Do yourself a favor and go visit the top 10, or 5. 

I've lived here 11+ years now and sure 'Go Charlotte!' but let's not kid ourselves to what already is. I've never been a fan of "hey in 50 years we can be what these cities were 150 years ago!!!!!" woo!

 

[Dale]

Charlotte has knocked the socks off of every out-of-towner I've hosted. And that includes folks from larger cities.

[go_vertical]

Charlotte is one of those cities where at first it's really exciting. It's new, shiny, somewhat bustling, and constantly growing. Then when you're here for a little while you start to notice little things that are missing or haven't been fully realized yet. Then when you're here for a little longer you discover that most of those things you wanted in a city this size are here, you just had to find them.

[caterpillar2]

1 hour ago, go_vertical said:

Charlotte is one of those cities where at first it's really exciting. It's new, shiny, somewhat bustling, and constantly growing. Then when you're here for a little while you start to notice little things that are missing or haven't been fully realized yet. Then when you're here for a little longer you discover that most of those things you wanted in a city this size are here, you just had to find them.

Precisely. It is a shame that so many people give up without looking. That is when they become whining pains in the asses. I meet people almost daily that complain and complain knowing that if they had the things they complained about, they wouldn't be interested in them anyway. On the other hand, I meet people from NYC and other much bigger places that love it here and think it is wonderful. The get involved in volunteering and many other pass times. As you say, if you don't find it, you're not looking.

[SgtCampsalot]

37 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

Precisely. It is a shame that so many people give up without looking. That is when they become whining pains in the asses. I meet people almost daily that complain and complain knowing that if they had the things they complained about, they wouldn't be interested in them anyway. On the other hand, I meet people from NYC and other much bigger places that love it here and think it is wonderful. The get involved in volunteering and many other pass times. As you say, if you don't find it, you're not looking.

On a tangential note, the (one and only) reason I love talking to New Yorkers in Charlotte is because they have an inherent, if rudimentary, understanding of basic urban design and small-scale density. Then I can subsequently fascinate them by explaining the technical/cultural reasons why Charlotte is not like that.

I then try to end the conversation before it inevitably leads into how "affordable" our city is, and other carpetbagger nonsense 

Edited February 21, 2017 by SgtCampsalot

[Dale]

At the end of the day, nothing is hipper than affordability.

[SgtCampsalot]

I'm just saying it ain't so affordable for a large portion of the people already here.

[Dale]

44 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

I'm just saying it ain't so affordable for a large portion of the people already here.

You mean the large portion already here can't live on Queen's Road Loop or in an Uptown luxury highrise ?

[alb1no panther]

1 hour ago, SgtCampsalot said:

I'm just saying it ain't so affordable for a large portion of the people already here.

Faulty logic. 

[SgtCampsalot]

1 hour ago, alb1no panther said:

Faulty logic. 

Hah! Fair point.

The thing I don't understand is that if a place is expensive to live, then presumably the wages also match it. So what are all these New Yorkers doing for work down here that they still feel it's so much cheaper? Are they maintaining their high wages? If so, how? They're in a cheaper city with lower wages I thought...

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by SgtCampsalot

[J-Rob]

^ There most likely is not a direct correlation to pay and living costs.

If City A has 25% higher wages than City B, but City A also has 40% higher cost of living than City B, then it can reasonably be assumed that it is "cheaper" to live in City B.  In many cases, Charlotte is "City B".

Edited February 21, 2017 by J-Rob

[alb1no panther]

32 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Hah! Fair point.

The thing I don't understand is that if a place is expensive to live, then presumably the wages also match it. So what are all these New Yorkers doing for work down here that they still feel it's so much cheaper? Are they maintaining their high wages? If so, how? They're in a cheaper city with lower wages I thought...

 

Essentially you can have more for less AS COMPARED TO the North East. So, while they may lose a bit on the face of their W2, it's a net positive due to the gained margin. 

[SgtCampsalot]

1 hour ago, J-Rob said:

^ There most likely is not a direct correlation to pay and living costs.

If City A has 25% higher wages than City B, but City A also has 40% higher cost of living than City B, then it can reasonably be assumed that it is "cheaper" to live in City B.  In many cases, Charlotte is "City B".

 

1 hour ago, alb1no panther said:

Essentially you can have more for less AS COMPARED TO the North East. So, while they may lose a bit on the face of their W2, it's a net positive due to the gained margin. 

Good points. Thanks for the perspective.

I guess what I should have said was that it's tough to get by in this city as it is, it often feels tougher when people say how cheap everything is.

[Dale]

2 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

 

Good points. Thanks for the perspective.

I guess what I should have said was that it's tough to get by in this city as it is, it often feels tougher when people say how cheap everything is.

I get you, but take the axiom with a grain of salt because it's not so important for me to live Uptown or in proximity.

[caterpillar2]

2 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Hah! Fair point.

The thing I don't understand is that if a place is expensive to live, then presumably the wages also match it. So what are all these New Yorkers doing for work down here that they still feel it's so much cheaper? Are they maintaining their high wages? If so, how? They're in a cheaper city with lower wages I thought...

 

The are all working at Lowes and Home Depot.

[edmundblackadder1999]

2 hours ago, J-Rob said:

^ There most likely is not a direct correlation to pay and living costs.

If City A has 25% higher wages than City B, but City A also has 40% higher cost of living than City B, then it can reasonably be assumed that it is "cheaper" to live in City B.  In many cases, Charlotte is "City B".

I don't know if City A is supposed to be NYC, but if so, its way more than 40% more expensive than Charlotte.  The average price of a condo is over $1m.

[caterpillar2]

6 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

On a tangential note, the (one and only) reason I love talking to New Yorkers in Charlotte is because they have an inherent, if rudimentary, understanding of basic urban design and small-scale density. Then I can subsequently fascinate them by explaining the technical/cultural reasons why Charlotte is not like that.

I then try to end the conversation before it inevitably leads into how "affordable" our city is, and other carpetbagger nonsense 

I personally really enjoy NYC (not as much as London), but up here on the lake, I never meet anyone from New York that doesn't love it here. That wasn't the case at first, but I suppose that with the carpetbagger invasion of late, everyone feels more at home at home with their many fellow countrymen.  The bang for the buck cost wise is phenomenal compared to NYC, Westchester, Conn. etc. I believe that they don't want too many others knowing the best kept secret. 

[J-Rob]

1 minute ago, edmundblackadder1999 said:

I don't know if City A is supposed to be NYC, but if so, its way more than 40% more expensive than Charlotte.  The average price of a condo is over $1m.

There was not a specific "City A" for that reason.  I wasn't providing a specific example as much as I was explaining how Charlotte can be easier to live in despite lower wages.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, edmundblackadder1999 said:

I don't know if City A is supposed to be NYC, but if so, its way more than 40% more expensive than Charlotte.  The average price of a condo is over $1m.

I live in NYC, and probably get paid about what I would get paid in Charlotte, but my 900 sq foot condo with a 40 minute train commute would have bought a 3 bedroom house in Elizabeth

Edited February 21, 2017 by Guest

[edmundblackadder1999]

6 hours ago, J-Rob said:

There was not a specific "City A" for that reason.  I wasn't providing a specific example as much as I was explaining how Charlotte can be easier to live in despite lower wages.

I agree.