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35 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

I didn't think I could possibly be the only one. If really bad, there is always the Harris Teeter on S.Blvd not too far from rail service. 

I've heard this wherever I have lived even little BTV. It's really just fear of the unknown (and an inability to parallel park!). Better signage to all the parking garages and from them to the typical sports facilites would take care of 90% of it. Our garage right next to Romare Bearden is rarely filled so one's further away from the sports facilities must be pretty open on most nights.

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27 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

I've heard this wherever I have lived even little BTV. It's really just fear of the unknown (and an inability to parallel park!). Better signage to all the parking garages and from them to the typical sports facilites would take care of 90% of it. Our garage right next to Romare Bearden is rarely filled so one's further away from the sports facilities must be pretty open on most nights.

Now that you mention it, I can't remember see the "P" signs indicating parking garages. Maybe I just missed them, but signage is critical. 

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On 4/9/2017 at 6:26 PM, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

FYI the project description I read points toward an Italianate style building with a rooftop deck.

"Approximately 220,000 sq ft of new construction consisting of a new 254-key full service hotel comprised of 4 public levels, 2 parking levels and 9 guest room levels.  The project is located at the corner of West Trade Street and North Church Street in Charlotte, North Carolina. Vehicular street connection will occur at the porte cochere located along the North Church Street frontage. The bistro and the gallery will project towards the street engaging the sidewalk along Church street, while the hotel bar and restaurant engages the West Trade Street frontage. There is a rooftop restaurant and sky lounge with detached campanile holding the corner .  Function spaces include a range of meeting rooms and a sub dividable grand ballroom. A spa and fitness center includes a reception area, changing area, and treatment rooms.  The primary kitchen is located on the ground floor adjacent to the restaurant and bar.  The kitchen is back served from a back of house corridor connected to the service elevator.  Parking is located on levels 2 and 3 with a vehicular entrance provided via the porte cochere on the ground level.  The parking deck will be 100% valet parked."

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Nothing in that description reads as "italianate" to me. Not saying it is or isn't going to be italianate, but architects use a lot of Italian/Latin sounding words to describe their concepts. I'll be interested to see what this "campanile" (bell tower) actually looks like. It sounds like it could be a cool addition if done well. Other than that it sounds like the description for Embassy Suites.

 

21 hours ago, Windsurfer said:

With all due respect, we're trying to attract people uptown, no? When my wife and I lived in The TradeMark we were hit with a weird (albeit just a couple of hundred dollars i think) tax for living uptown. As a marketer myself, one thing I've learned is, often it's not the dollar amount, but the message these little taxes send. Restrictions (road diets), small surcharges, taxes, do-this; don't do this, eventually add up into a subliminal message: We don't want your business. I can't tell you how many people, and I know you guys know them too, who declare, "I'll never go uptown".

If anything we should be offering subsidies and more free parking. Get your 'customer base' hooked. Then, if we turn into London, we can start with the fees. Until, they'll just say no-thanks.

1) I agree that an additional charge for driving (ie: a surcharge for driving inside 277) is not needed, but for different reasons. Namely that we are a city built for cars, and it's not realistic to completely exclude them.

2) I disagree that making parking easier is the solution, and that the cumulative affect of charges discourages people from living or going uptown. There are more people living and working uptown than ever before. If you live there, it doesn't cost anything more than the rest of the city (other than the cost of land itself). All uptown property owners pay a tax via the various Municipal Service Districts. It's not a mysterious or secret tax - it goes to fund Center City Partners (among other things). The net cost of that tax is negligible compared to the amount of money you save by not having to drive in the first place. There are no secret rules or special restrictions or surcharges that you wouldn't find in other parts of the city. Anyone who believes something different is simply misinformed or hasn't actually looked into it.

3) I guarantee you that people who say that they'll "never go uptown" won't change their mind no matter what you do or say. We tried for decades to make it easy to drive uptown by tearing everything down in favor of parking lots, and it didn't work. To that end, there is still plenty of free/easy if you know where to look and they still aren't here. These people just don't care to try. And to them I say good riddance and enjoy sitting your rush hour traffic on 77.

4) The most successful urban places are very walkable. We need to design to what we aspire to be, not to what we are today, in order to become the city that we want to be. So, designing our streets for people, and making cars the lowest priority in our most urban places is the right thing to do.

 

 

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6 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

That is nice. That'll be good for that block, too. 
I gotta say though, I cry a little on the inside every time we lose an old red brick building. Whether it's the Virginia Paper Mill, the old South End Common Market site, or this un-used, awkwardly located building, it's always a loss in my book.

 

700 W 5th St (2).JPG

700 W 5th St (1).JPG

I agree completely but...in this case I'll take it.  That isn't a great building, and has limited potential to be one.  It's old and brick and that's about it.  Working in Gateway Village, this station will hopefully help as I too have experienced some sketchy folks on occasion (nothing beyond what you might expect in a downtown location though).  I love the design of the new police building and that the rest of that lot will finally be developed.

I'll add that losing the Virginia Paper Mill building was a killer...

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17 hours ago, Spartan said:

 

 

 

1) I agree that an additional charge for driving (ie: a surcharge for driving inside 277) is not needed, but for different reasons. Namely that we are a city built for cars, and it's not realistic to completely exclude them.

2) I disagree that making parking easier is the solution, and that the cumulative affect of charges discourages people from living or going uptown. There are more people living and working uptown than ever before. If you live there, it doesn't cost anything more than the rest of the city (other than the cost of land itself). All uptown property owners pay a tax via the various Municipal Service Districts. It's not a mysterious or secret tax - it goes to fund Center City Partners (among other things). The net cost of that tax is negligible compared to the amount of money you save by not having to drive in the first place. There are no secret rules or special restrictions or surcharges that you wouldn't find in other parts of the city. Anyone who believes something different is simply misinformed or hasn't actually looked into it.

3) I guarantee you that people who say that they'll "never go uptown" won't change their mind no matter what you do or say. We tried for decades to make it easy to drive uptown by tearing everything down in favor of parking lots, and it didn't work. To that end, there is still plenty of free/easy if you know where to look and they still aren't here. These people just don't care to try. And to them I say good riddance and enjoy sitting your rush hour traffic on 77.

4) The most successful urban places are very walkable. We need to design to what we aspire to be, not to what we are today, in order to become the city that we want to be. So, designing our streets for people, and making cars the lowest priority in our most urban places is the right thing to do.

 

 

1) Right. That's why, just trying to 'train' your 'customers' to change their habits by taxes and restrictions in an effort to change attitudes won't necessarlly help. I sell merchandise, and don't mind bragging I've had a pretty successful career at it.  I always have vendors trying to coerce me into moving out of a product into another by trying to force me to raise my price on one item and lower it on the new one (despite the old product being immensely popular). Go with what works. Marketing 101 "Give 'em what they want". If people WANT to come up town, and they want to drive there, why fight it?  

2) More people living and working up town. I agree. And, I know it's miniscule in the whole scheme of things, but one of the best things they did for uptown was to allow street parking. Remember when you had to search for a parking deck, even when you merely had to drop off a document? Nothing grieves me more than to see those stupid bags over the the parking meters for special events. The little things do matter. As far as the Municiple Service tax, or whatever, yes I'm sure they have a justification. But, what WOULD be the "surcharges that you would find in other parts of the city"?  Is there a special charge for living in South Park?

3) I can introduce you to several folks who I've take downtown for lunch and to walk around who, before never wanted anything to do with downtown, but now are cheerleaders for the area. They never "knew it was so easy to go uptown, park and walk around!" .. Their words.

4) See your comment #1.  You CAN make it easier for parking and walkability. Access is important. An inviting and a non-restrictive ambiance will get you there. One of the first places my inlaws take me every time I go to LA is the Promenade in Santa Monica. Yes, the parking is a little higher than what I'd like to pay, but it's definitely and inviting place to go because you can drive right into one of the many decks and get out and walk. It's a rare day people aren't bumping into each other.

On 4/11/2017 at 4:48 AM, asthasr said:

God no. That's what has gotten us into this mess to begin with. The issue is that when you subsidize commuting in (which we've done to the tune of billions of dollars in vast highway infrastructure), you are encouraging... commuting in. Not the development of the downtown. That's why the U.S. has so few really modern cities: our cities are either suburbs trying now desperately to claw their way to urbanism (Charlotte, Atlanta, etc.) or they're legacy cities from pre-1930 (New York, Philadelphia, Boston, etc.).

I don't think I meant subsidies to commute. I meant subsidies to live and remain uptown. Make it easy to get up town, but make it favorable to stick around once there.

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25 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

Marketing 101 "Give 'em what they want". If people WANT to come up town, and they want to drive there, why fight it?  ...

I don't think I meant subsidies to commute. I meant subsidies to live and remain uptown. Make it easy to get up town, but make it favorable to stick around once there.

I understand your point of view and I don't completely disagree but I need to point out you contradict yourself when you say "let people drove if they want" and then say "make it favorable to stick around once there." Every additional car in town makes life crappier for the people who are already there -- that is why people fight auto friendliness.

People don't go uptown because there is plenty of parking, they go because it's different than the rest of Charlotte.

Edited by kermit
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My point apparently comes across as though I'm saying something like bring on the cruising. What I'm trying to say is, make uptown inviting....come in by whatever means, even by car, but park in a <hopefully> easily accessed parking spot that isn't 10 bucks an hour, leave the car and walk around. Yes, we have some folks who ride in on The Blue Line. Yes, we have a handful of bikers, and yes walkers, but the majority STILL drive in. And, I know a ton of folks in the perimeter who would love to come in via car, park cheaply and easly and walk around once there.

The majority of people walking around Asheville still drive in. The majority of people walking The Promenade in Santa Monica still drive in. The tick is keeping them there.... make parking the car and walking around an easy event. Don't start throwing up impediments. (Even if those impediments are minor )

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Just now, Windsurfer said:

The majority of people walking around Asheville still drive in.

Just $.02, but a few weeks ago we were in Asheville - we went to downtown for lunch on Saturday and literally drove around for 20 minutes trying to find parking before giving up and going to Biltmore Village. Every parking deck was signed "full" and no street parking to be found, even on my usual go-to hidden streets and out of the way blocks.

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Yea but you're comparing apples to oranges. Asheville does not have a light rail line. Yes, busses, but those carry a certain stigma that a lot of people just can't get over. Uptown has a LOT of parking when you weigh in access provided by light rail park and rides (especially if the visitor is coming from that direction.) This will be amplified further once the BLE is opened.

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6 minutes ago, AuLukey said:

Yea but you're comparing apples to oranges. Asheville does not have a light rail line. Yes, busses, but those carry a certain stigma that a lot of people just can't get over. Uptown has a LOT of parking when you weigh in access provided by light rail park and rides (especially if the visitor is coming from that direction.) This will be amplified further once the BLE is opened.

Sure, we've got a light rail line. But I have to drive 30 minutes to use it. Yes, we're building another one that I'd have to drive 35 minutes to use.

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Sure, we've got a light rail line. But I have to drive 30 minutes to use it. Yes, we're building another one that I'd have to drive 35 minutes to use.

 

Well clearly it can't help everyone. That's a given. But for measurability, it does extend the parking in Uptown to provide more options for the general public.

 

But, in a way, it does help you. Look at how full just the 485 station gets (not even taking any of the other decks into consideration) and yet people still complain about the parking in Uptown. Can you imagine if all of those cars were parking Uptown too?

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44 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

1) Right. That's why, just trying to 'train' your 'customers' to change their habits by taxes and restrictions in an effort to change attitudes won't necessarlly help. I sell merchandise, and don't mind bragging I've had a pretty successful career at it.  I always have vendors trying to coerce me into moving out of a product into another by trying to force me to raise my price on one item and lower it on the new one (despite the old product being immensely popular). Go with what works. Marketing 101 "Give 'em what they want". If people WANT to come up town, and they want to drive there, why fight it?  

2) More people living and working up town. I agree. And, I know it's miniscule in the whole scheme of things, but one of the best things they did for uptown was to allow street parking. Remember when you had to search for a parking deck, even when you merely had to drop off a document? Nothing grieves me more than to see those stupid bags over the the parking meters for special events. The little things do matter. As far as the Municiple Service tax, or whatever, yes I'm sure they have a justification. But, what WOULD be the "surcharges that you would find in other parts of the city"?  Is there a special charge for living in South Park?

3) I can introduce you to several folks who I've take downtown for lunch and to walk around who, before never wanted anything to do with downtown, but now are cheerleaders for the area. They never "knew it was so easy to go uptown, park and walk around!" .. Their words.

4) See your comment #1.  You CAN make it easier for parking and walkability. Access is important. An inviting and a non-restrictive ambiance will get you there. One of the first places my inlaws take me every time I go to LA is the Promenade in Santa Monica. Yes, the parking is a little higher than what I'd like to pay, but it's definitely and inviting place to go because you can drive right into one of the many decks and get out and walk. It's a rare day people aren't bumping into each other.

I don't think I meant subsidies to commute. I meant subsidies to live and remain uptown. Make it easy to get up town, but make it favorable to stick around once there.

1) I actually agree. That's why there should be more taxes and fees for driving parking in general (everywhere), and less for transit and incentives for biking and walking to work. If parking and driving weren't so heavily subsidized by the government and people had to pay to park everywhere (with rates varying depending on demand) then people would be forced to think about the actual cost to own and operate a vehicle, and it would then affect how people choose to navigate and how they place value on where they park (do you really need to find a spot right out front?). You should check out "The High Cost of Free Parking" by Donald Shoup. As someone involved in marketing you would appreciate the market-based approach to parking and transportation that he suggests.

2) There are no surcharges for living in any part of Charlotte. That's my point. Other than the MSD, it's not any more expensive to live uptown unless your only value metric is "size of house."

3) So its a fear of the unknown and unwillingness to try by some people? I have little sympathy for people who are unwilling to go somewhere because it might be more difficult to park their car.

4) I'd rather Charlotte not be anything like LA.

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I know that the information for this building is still fresh. But does anyone know if this building will encompass the entire block? If so, what are the chances of retail or a bistro facing 6th across from Elmwood? That part of 5th isn't super pedestrian friendly, and I would imagine that would be where they would have patrol car access to make accessing Uptown easier.
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24 minutes ago, Spartan said:

1) I actually agree. That's why there should be more taxes and fees for driving parking in general (everywhere), and less for transit and incentives for biking and walking to work. If parking and driving weren't so heavily subsidized by the government and people had to pay to park everywhere (with rates varying depending on demand) then people would be forced to think about the actual cost to own and operate a vehicle, and it would then affect how people choose to navigate and how they place value on where they park (do you really need to find a spot right out front?). You should check out "The High Cost of Free Parking" by Donald Shoup. As someone involved in marketing you would appreciate the market-based approach to parking and transportation that he suggests.

2) There are no surcharges for living in any part of Charlotte. That's my point. Other than the MSD, it's not any more expensive to live uptown unless your only value metric is "size of house."

3) So its a fear of the unknown and unwillingness to try by some people? I have little sympathy for people who are unwilling to go somewhere because it might be more difficult to park their car.

4) I'd rather Charlotte not be anything like LA.

1) And, indirectly, the toll roads might accomplish some of what we're talking about, right?

2) I wish I could remember the exact amount of uptown tax we were served. It was mostly just a slap on the wrist, but still, the message was still negative. We want positive things to feel about uptown.

3) yes, the unknown, but many folks still remember the days before street parking was available. We're all afraid of something, and we all fall in ruts. Sometimes it just takes a buddy to take you to that new brewery or spot.

4) Same here. I'm just saying one of the highlights of going is actually going to a place within LA where one CAN walk around. 

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1 hour ago, Windsurfer said:

My point apparently comes across as though I'm saying something like bring on the cruising. What I'm trying to say is, make uptown inviting....come in by whatever means, even by car, but park in a <hopefully> easily accessed parking spot that isn't 10 bucks an hour, leave the car and walk around. Yes, we have some folks who ride in on The Blue Line. Yes, we have a handful of bikers, and yes walkers, but the majority STILL drive in. And, I know a ton of folks in the perimeter who would love to come in via car, park cheaply and easly and walk around once there.

The majority of people walking around Asheville still drive in. The majority of people walking The Promenade in Santa Monica still drive in. The tick is keeping them there.... make parking the car and walking around an easy event. Don't start throwing up impediments. (Even if those impediments are minor )

I feel like this is already the case. You can find parking in Uptown just about anywhere outside of business hours for less than $10. If you are willing to walk a little you can get a place on the outskirts for less than $10 even during the day. I know this because it is 10:45 on a Wednesday and I can look out my window and see plenty of open $6 parking spots on Tryon right over 277. I walk that distance every day to work, if that is "too far" then Uptown just doesn't have much to offer you.

I don't know what else the city can do, it is inviting, it is easy to get here via many modes, and there is plenty ample parking at a reasonable price. Most of the nicer restaurants have complimentary valet parking. People say they want to "Get down here easily, park for a reasonable price and walk around" but when you tell them they can actually do that, what they really want is "Drive to the front door, park for free, eat, walk back out to my car and leave." And for those people, just stay in the suburbs.

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22 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

1) And, indirectly, the toll roads might accomplish some of what we're talking about, right?

2) I wish I could remember the exact amount of uptown tax we were served. It was mostly just a slap on the wrist, but still, the message was still negative. We want positive things to feel about uptown.

3) yes, the unknown, but many folks still remember the days before street parking was available. We're all afraid of something, and we all fall in ruts. Sometimes it just takes a buddy to take you to that new brewery or spot.

4) Same here. I'm just saying one of the highlights of going is actually going to a place within LA where one CAN walk around. 

To your number 2 point here is a portion of tax bill from the avenue 

Untitled.jpg.e99638e102903ac0d0f588f1104929b4.jpg

And here is a portion from a tax bill from a house in dilworth

Untitled2.jpg.715095338dc7f9965a537ac484492b57.jpg

The special district taxes are only a few hundred bucks, but its still there and as Spartan said it funds Center City Partners. All real estate owners are charged the tax, not just residential owners. 

Edited by jwntim
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I write " 5% discount for being a valued customer" on my invoices. Imagine if that tax bill above said something like, "Special District 3 discount" or Special District 3 Credit".

 And, yes, we all KNOW it's just a few hundred dollars and well worth it to enjoy amenities uptown, it's the message!

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