Misc. Uptown Projects/News

[kermit]

2 hours ago, Dale said:

Attended a Knights game last night, first time Uptown in four months. I suppose it was a combination of four months of pretty pictures, as well as runaway expections, that fostered disappointment. Impression: outside of a stretch of Stonewall, Tyron south of Spirit Square and perhaps a couple of pockets of activity ... Uptown has a LONG way to go. I suppose it is well to remind myself how far it has come, since the 80’s, when it called to mind a nuclear bomb site.

Yea, here is the long-term perspective. This is 3rd Ward, ballpark is in the upper right center (rail yard area — Federal courthouse is visible top right) and BoA stadium is in the lower left center. 

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by kermit

[CLT>]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

Yea, here is the long-term perspective. This is 3rd Ward, ballpark is in the upper right center (rail yard area — Federal courthouse is visible top right) and BoA stadium is in the lower left center. 

 

I still wish the old Virginia Paper Building could have been converted to a farmers market as part of Romare Bearden Park, but oh well.

[atlrvr]

The first Chase bank branch will be Uptown (no surprise).  They are taking the old SunTrust branch location in the historic Tryon Plaza building ( 112 S Tryon).

I imagine they will do an awesome job redoing the space, that SunTrust really never updated all that well.

[navigator319]

25 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

The first Chase bank branch will be Uptown (no surprise).  They are taking the old SunTrust branch location in the historic Tryon Plaza building ( 112 S Tryon).

I imagine they will do an awesome job redoing the space, that SunTrust really never updated all that well.

This is fine and all, but boring.  So to come we have this new Chase here, the new US Bank where D&D was, BofA at LU, FNB in their tower and we just got Regions not long ago.   

PNC still to come??  Yes I am aware BofA closed two Uptown in the last year... Epi and gold building 

At least Chopt and Chipotle are still coming.  Chopt seems to be taking forever though.

[KJHburg]

^^^and a 5/3 branch where Chopt is going also closed.  Net no change in bank branches uptown really.

[videtur quam contuor]

Downtown branches are not service centers but branding exercises?

[CLTProductions]

6 hours ago, atlrvr said:

The first Chase bank branch will be Uptown (no surprise).  They are taking the old SunTrust branch location in the historic Tryon Plaza building ( 112 S Tryon).

I imagine they will do an awesome job redoing the space, that SunTrust really never updated all that well.

They can do an awesome job, but it will still be completely wasted space being a bank branch

[navigator319]

^^^and a 5/3 branch where Chopt is going also closed.  Net no change in bank branches uptown really.

It just moved to 5/3 building there wasn’t one there before just a private client ‘bank’ and ATM.

There are a lot of net gain here. BofA closed 2 and is now adding one back.

[kermit]

Re Charlotte Pipe:

Not sure there is anything more here than what we have already discussed but this morning’s Business NC update email contained this:

Quote

Within the next few weeks, look for announcement of a $154 million incentives package to assist Charlotte Pipe & Foundry’s move of about 475 employees in the Queen City’s downtown to a new site 30 miles east in Stanly County, near Oakboro, according to people familiar with the matter. The move has been rumored since April, but last week Gov. Roy Cooper signed an incentives bill approved by state lawmakers to stay competitive with South Carolina.

While the benefits for Charlotte will be substantial, I gotta shake my head at NC taxpayers providing Charlotte pipe with $324,210 of corporate welfare per job, especially for a company that is already doing business in the state. For perspective, the state beotched endlessly about having to contribute less than $154 million  to the DOLRT — a project that would have never moved out of state and would have certainly created more than 500 jobs (by encouraging firms to move to the area thanks to improved mobility).

Edit: the announcement didn’t take long 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2019/05/20/charlotte-pipe-to-leave-site-near-uptown-charlotte.html

ADM facility is next....

Edited May 21, 2019 by kermit

[NcSc74]

6 hours ago, kermit said:

Re Charlotte Pipe:

Not sure there is anything more here than what we have already discussed but this morning’s Business NC update email contained this:

While the benefits for Charlotte will be substantial, I gotta shake my head at NC taxpayers providing Charlotte pipe with $324,210 of corporate welfare per job, especially for a company that is already doing business in the state. $154 million is also more than the state was going to contribute to the DOLRT — that would have certainly created more than 500 jobs.

the announcement didn’t take long 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2019/05/20/charlotte-pipe-to-leave-site-near-uptown-charlotte.html

ADM facility is next....

I slightly agree with you but NC has to do what it can to ease the poaching SC is doing.  i mean I get it; jobs for the people is the goal but at some point it has to end. Out in the midwest Missouri and Kansas had to do a cease fire because of the amount incentive money being thrown around was starting to harm much needed money for civic obligations.  It seems SC is benefiting from the huge economic engine Charlotte is. When are the folks up in Raleigh going to capitalize on the gem Charlotte is as well.  

[videtur quam contuor]

I wonder how many CP&F Charlotte employees plan to reverse commute to Oakboro. 36 miles and ~1 one hour/Googlemaps

[KJHburg]

4 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

I wonder how many CP&F Charlotte employees plan to reverse commute to Oakboro. 36 miles and ~1 one hour/Googlemaps

I am sure there are some but I would be willing to bet most live outside of Mecklenburg county and many do live east of town already as these rumors of moving to Stanly Co. have been around a long time.  another thing manufacturing shifts start very early in the morning so a commute to Oakboro early in the morning may not be as bad some may think.   I know of a CP&F employee who bought a house in Locust and he worked at the uptown plant. 

[JHart]

15 hours ago, NcSc74 said:

I slightly agree with you but NC has to do what it can to ease the poaching SC is doing.  i mean I get it; jobs for the people is the goal but at some point it has to end. Out in the midwest Missouri and Kansas had to do a cease fire because of the amount incentive money being thrown around was starting to harm much needed money for civic obligations.  It seems SC is benefiting from the huge economic engine Charlotte is. When are the folks up in Raleigh going to capitalize on the gem Charlotte is as well.  

Let them move to SC then. If you keep matching state tax incentives then it will turn into a Kansas/Missouri situation. SC is already short on taxes for state projects, let them bleed themselves. I'm with @kermit on this one, 500 jobs isn't worth $134 million..

[orulz]

ADM facility is next....

While I would love to see ADM move too, where would they go? My understanding is that their current location at the intersection of mainlines for both CSX and Norfolk Southern, with very close interstate access, hu is extremely advantageous for them.

The only other spot in NC that is really equal to or better than the current location in every sense is Selma, but that's pretty far from Charlotte.

Marion might work, and that's a little closer. While the NS Asheville district and the former Clinchfield have been somewhat downgraded lately and see fewer through trains today than in the past, they are still considered mainlines as far as I know and both railroads would be happy to add more trains to take more advantage of these somewhat underutilized routes. Downside is the NSX/CSX crossing has mediocre highway access.

Chester SC would be another possibility but highway access there is even worse, and I don't think NC would want to let ADM leave the state anyway.

Perhaps the RR thing isn't as big of a deal to ADM as I am thinking and they would be fine with basically any site with highway and RR access, but just a thought.

[kermit]

1 minute ago, orulz said:

While I would love to see ADM move too, where would they go? My understanding is that their current location at the intersection of mainlines for both CSX and Norfolk Southern, with very close interstate access, hu is extremely advantageous for them.

 

Yea, I have heard about the two railroad access thing before as well,  and dual rail access is something  that NC (surprisingly)  struggles with. That said, there are a couple of locations which I think could work. The nearest would be in the wedge of old textile mills between the (nearly adjacent) NS main and the P&N between Lowell and Gastonia. The P&N is in pretty good shape through there,  NCDOT -really- needs a big customer for their short-line tenant and they could transfer to CSX in Mt. Holly.

I would think they could also copycat Charlotte Pipe. Their are some decent locations in Stanly county with access to both the ACWR and the WSSB (although highway access would be poor). Lexington could also really use some new industry and they have the trifecta of 85, the NCRR and the WSSB who could transfer to CSX in Wadesboro / Monroe/Hamlet. (and I believe the WSSB is partially owned by CSX?)

There is no telling what ADM really values in a site, but based on weight-value of raw materials and finished products I would think Charlotte Pipe would be just as dependent on rail than ADM and they could make Stanly County and a shortline work...

[orulz]

Yea, I have heard about the two railroad access thing before as well,  and dual rail access is something  that NC (surprisingly)  struggles with. That said, there are a couple of locations which I think could work. The nearest would be in the wedge of old textile mills between the (nearly adjacent) NS main and the P&N between Lowell and Gastonia. The P&N is in pretty good shape through there,  NCDOT -really- needs a big customer for their short-line tenant and they could transfer to CSX in Mt. Holly.
I would think they could also copycat Charlotte Pipe. Their are some decent locations in Stanly county with access to both the ACWR and the WSSB (although highway access would be poor). Lexington could also really use some new industry and they have the trifecta of 85, the NCRR and the WSSB who could transfer to CSX in Wadesboro / Monroe/Hamlet. (and I believe the WSSB is partially owned by CSX?)
There is no telling what ADM really values in a site, but based on weight-value of raw materials and finished products I would think Charlotte Pipe would be just as dependent on rail than ADM and they could make Stanly County and a shortline work...

If branch lines and short lines are OK then that opens things up quite a bit and there are probably a couple dozen spots in NC, and several in the Charlotte area. WSSB/NCRR/I-85 in Lexington is a good suggestion, as is P&N/CSX near Mount Holly.

[kermit]

14 minutes ago, orulz said:

If branch lines and short lines are OK then that opens things up quite a bit and there are probably a couple dozen spots in NC, and several in the Charlotte area. WSSB/NCRR/I-85 in Lexington is a good suggestion, as is P&N/CSX near Mount Holly.

Yea, if the PSR thing sticks then I suspect that sidings off mains are going to be managed away by the Class Is (NS probably does not want locals clogging up their entrance to the intermodal yard). (ADM might be an exception, I have no idea how many carloads they generate).

In a larger sense I think the state is really missing the boat in not promoting more industrial sites along the ACWR / P&N / WSSB etc. The Charlotte Pipe story is not particularly unusual, old-school mass production is getting priced out of lots of urban areas (and possibly encouraged to move away from sidings off mains by their RRs). NC has tons of abandoned rural industrial sites along these short lines just begging to be put to good use.

[KJHburg]

I like the silos there and yes some people are bothered by the noise.  But I would point out residential development close by happened long after these silos were there especially along N Graham. Photo from yesterday. 

[kermit]

^ I don't hate the silos. But I do think there are much more productive ways to utilize that land.

Edited May 21, 2019 by kermit

[jthomas]

I can't remember the specifics of the CSX/NS grade separation project - would moving the ADM mill make that project more feasible? Seems like the at-grade crossing is an impediment to increasing passenger frequencies on the Piedmont line.

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, jthomas said:

I can't remember the specifics of the CSX/NS grade separation project - would moving the ADM mill make that project more feasible? Seems like the at-grade crossing is an impediment to increasing passenger frequencies on the Piedmont line.

ADM did push back against the project, but I don't believe that is what killed it.

It looks to me like CSX is content with downgrade their line.  I think they basically decided just to wait for NS (and Amtrak) traffic to clear the diamond rather than worry about speediness between Charlotte and Monroe.

I don't think the project is coming back, and I don't think the crossing is going to be a big impediment to passenger rail in the short-term future.

[jthomas]

16 minutes ago, kermit said:

ADM did push back against the project, but I don't believe that is what killed it.

It looks to me like CSX is content with downgrade their line.  I think they basically decided just to wait for NS (and Amtrak) traffic to clear the diamond rather than worry about speediness between Charlotte and Monroe.

I don't think the project is coming back, and I don't think the crossing is going to be a big impediment to passenger rail in the short-term future.

Good to hear. I'm curious about the specifics of the North End Passenger Bypass that is proposed. I would assume that the idea is to have dedicated passenger tracks that extend from Gateway Station to beyond the north entrance of the NS yard. If that is the case, it seems like the space taken up by the ADM sidings would be an important component of that project.

(Trying not to take this too far off-topic - I'll post some more thoughts in the NC intercity rail thread)

[videtur quam contuor]

Regarding Silos, might anyone here recall the Purina silo off North Tryon near the south end of the rail yard? It was imploded quite a while ago, apparently so long ago that it predates the intertoobz. It had the red and white checker pattern and was as well known as the JFG coffee sign on the west side.

[NCMike1990]

13 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

Regarding Silos, might anyone here recall the Purina silo off North Tryon near the south end of the rail yard? It was imploded quite a while ago, apparently so long ago that it predates the intertoobz. It had the red and white checker pattern and was as well known as the JFG coffee sign on the west side.

Are you talking about this site?

 

[videtur quam contuor]

Hah, how can one see a tall silo with red and white checks when photographed from straight above? Yes that is the location. There was truck access from Tryon and I believe it was grain for Purina products headed in and out by rail. Production changes likely eliminated the need. 

Thanks for the time machine.