Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[ajfunder]

^No way it was just for shipping the printers, track work like that is not cheap especially when switches are involved. It was most likely built with paper shipments in mind.

[DMann]

This may not mean anything, but I have friends who tailgate on the trianglular parking lot on what was the Third Street cutoff and Fourth Street. They have been told that spot will not be available next year due to Amtrak Station construction..

[15895]

http://mecktimes.com/news/2014/01/17/the-wait-for-gateway/

Anyone able to read this?

[kermit]

http://mecktimes.com/news/2014/01/17/the-wait-for-gateway/

Anyone able to read this?

The article is dated for today but reads like it is from a year ago.

It says that Hines is still involved in the project (we had discussed that they dropped out of the project IIRC), and that the city still had to purchase the Greyhound parcel (I had thought that had already happened).

The only real information in the article was that the track layout and modeling process is being handed off to a subcontractor (NS didn't want to do it in house) and they will begin in the 'spring, most likely May.' The modeling will take 'a year'. Once track modeling is complete then design and planning for all the other stuff (and funding allocations) can begin.

The remainder of the article was quotes from Paul Worley (NCDOT rail division) talking about how the station was badly needed but there was currently no funding for it. He said he hopes the project can be completed within a decade.....

 

There was also mention of Gateway getting the second downtown CATS bus transit hub since the existing one is above capacity.

 

EDIT: The discussion about Hines dropping out of the project comes from this post, the source is the 3rd Ward Neighborhood Newsletter (no secondary source was ever cited). There were implications that the PPP had broken down at the state level a couple posts later but nothing direct was said about Hines' involvement. Given the Meck Times piece I would think that Hines is still be involved in the Gateway Station project.

 

Edited January 17, 2014 by kermit

[ChessieCat]

Just saw the Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey's Circus train pass by Uptown/Gateway along the NCRR at 10:30AM today.  The mile-long train is quite a sight.  It's on its way to Greensboro from a weekend in Spartanburg...

Edited February 3, 2014 by ChessieCat

[dubone]

That is fun about the circus train. 

 

 

On the Gateway station overall, I must say, it does peeve me that Raleigh got Union Station funded with funds from what was supposed to be spent in Charlotte at the ADM/CSX/NS mainline separation project.   Of course for the good of the system, both ends need to have viable and usable stations, but their current state is vastly better than ours. 

 

If Hines has backed out, I hope the group that had that really awesome design by Little comes back on at least.

[ajfunder]

^Does anyone know why NCDOT chose Hines over the group that had actual renderings and was backed by local corporations. Little's proposal was stunning and was exactly what Charlotte needed for Gateway Station.

[15895]

^Does anyone know why NCDOT chose Hines over the group that had actual renderings and was backed by local corporations. Little's proposal was stunning and was exactly what Charlotte needed for Gateway Station.

I'm sure they had renderings.

But we mine as well just forget about any designs for the next decade as that's when this project will start to come to life again. And to think Nov. 2012 it was soo close to coming together

[kermit]

^Does anyone know why NCDOT chose Hines over the group that had actual renderings and was backed by local corporations. Little's proposal was stunning and was exactly what Charlotte needed for Gateway Station.

 

My understanding was that Hines has a very good reputation for their handling of PPP projects like Gateway. IIRC Little had great renderings but much less experience with projects of this nature.

[dubone]

Well, I hope Hines is gone if they really did back out.  I suspect NCDOT wanted to use all the grants in Raleigh and wanted Charlotte to pay for itself with development TIFs and Hines recognized quickly that that was impossible.  The land is valuable and developable, but not really anywhere close to the density shown in those initial dreamscapes.   Smith is a tiny street that can barely support the smallish apartment "complexes" (I'll use that hated word because they really are just like suburban apartments) and Graham is already a ridiculously undersized street for current car and pedestrian usage, let alone the huge projects along the rail. 

 

The Little plan actually seems much more realistic, and flat out gorgeous.   

http://www.littleonline.com/work/project/ncdot-charlotte-gateway-station-and-master-plan

 

[Matthew.Brendan]

yes please! ^^^

[dubone]

I agree, it is such an iconic and current design that seems it would pass the test of time far more than the placeholder design they have had for years.  I know isn't NCDOT land, but I am unclear on why they did not include the city parcel bounded by the railroad, 5th and the curved 6th St.  It seems like valuable urban land that would want to be coordinated with the NCDOT parcel across the tracks behind Cotton Mills apartments.   It seems that it one of the few places a project could be bridged across the tracks combining for a much larger development parcel.  Bridging the tracks with a parking deck would also abate some railroad noise for both parcels.

 

Also, looking at the master plan, I wonder if we should start thinking of getting the Panther's practice fields to relocate.  For example, now that the [Coffee Cup] West Morehead land behind the stadium is now just a buffer zone for the Pipe & Foundry, they could probably work a dead to move the fields to that land, and free up land that is arguably more developable, especially with an eventual ML King Blvd extension to Cedar.  We missed the opportunity to do that as part of the stadium upgrade, but it seems doable, considering Pipe&Foundary would not need to deal with any residential development at their boundary, but for the Panthers, there is no real difference in the pollution compared to their current location. 

 

This is obviously both a bit of dreaming, but they both seem practical in the context of the rest of this. 

[orulz]

On the Gateway station overall, I must say, it does peeve me that Raleigh got Union Station funded with funds from what was supposed to be spent in Charlotte at the ADM/CSX/NS mainline separation project.   Of course for the good of the system, both ends need to have viable and usable stations, but their current state is vastly better than ours. 

 

Respectfully I disagree. Raleigh's station is about half a mile from the center of town and Charlotte's is a bit over 1 mile, but everything else about Raleigh's station is inferior to Charlotte. Really the only thing truly inadequate about Charlotte's station is the location. In every other aspect Charlotte wins hands down: the size of the building, the length and condition of the platform, the amount of parking. The waiting room in Raleigh is pretty much always standing room only, and long trains like the Silver Star have to stop twice.

 

The worst problem in Charlotte from an operations perspective is the short layover track that limits the length of the Carolinian, and that is being resolved by the maintenance facility.

 

Plus, the amount of money that went to Raleigh's station is enough to finish the job whereas it would have funded only a fraction of the needs in Charlotte. Charlotte's plans are much more grand, which is great, and fitting for a city that's so much larger. But the problem with big plans is that they can take longer to realize. Raleigh's plans were much further along in the design process when the NCDOT money was redirected. That and, Raleigh got a big chunk of the money for their station from Tiger grants, whereas Charlotte has prioritized other projects (light rail and streetcar) when it comes to federal money.

[orulz]

I just looked through that Little plan for Gateway Station and WOW that's amazing. Not only is the architecture stunning, but the idea of putting the bus platforms directly below the train platforms is an astonishing stroke of genius.

 

But it would be expensive. Several hundred million dollars, likely. Raleigh's station is currently estimated at $73 million by comparison.

[ChessieCat]

IMO Durham's station is a perfect blueprint for the region, built right into the old Liggett and Myers warehouse at a cost of only $2 Million.  The only problem is the modern bus station is located on the other side of the tracks and an inconvenient 10 minute walk...    

[kermit]

^ and very limited parking

 

(but I agree, the station itself is great)

[kermit]

The Observer has an article on 'what went wrong with Gateway' article.

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/03/22/4785948/how-charlottes-grand-central-got.html#.Uy34W7RPaGU

 

Not much there that we didn't already know. It all basically boils down to NS needs assurances that its freight capacity won't be limited, the state still needs to find $200 million (ish) and Haines is probably still involved in the project (although they did not comment on the article).

 

Overall it has just reinforced my sense that NCDOT has _really_ dropped the ball on this project and there are no signs of them getting back on track.

[kermit]

As an example of what is possible with new stations like Gateway, the private company which is starting rail service in Florida (All Aborad Florida which is a subsidiary of Fl East Coast RR) has proposed to build a miami station which has 3 million sq ft or retail and office includning an 80 story office tower flanked by three other midrises.

The station, office and retail space aappears to be 100% privately financed. Two other things to keep in mind: First it is in a crappy part of town (I know Overton was once crappy, it has been a while since I have been to Miami). Second, All Aboard Florida only plans to run 5 round trips per day, fewer than what is planned for Gateway Station.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/05/28/4142796/miami-orlando-train-executives.html

(Standard disclaimers apply, Charlotte is not Miami, yadayada)

Edited May 28, 2014 by kermit

[ah59396]

As an example of what is possible with new stations like Gateway, the private company which is starting rail service in Florida (All Aborad Florida which is a subsidiary of Fl East Coast RR) has proposed a 3 million sq ft development including an 80 story office tower flanked by three other midrises.

The station, office and retail space aappears to be 100% privately financed. Two other things to keep in mind: First it is in a crappy part of town (I know Overton was once crappy, it has been a while since I have been to Miami). Second, All Aboard Florida only plans to run 5 round trips per day, fewer than what is planned for Gateway Station.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/05/28/4142796/miami-orlando-train-executives.html

(Standard disclaimers apply, Charlotte is not Miami, yadayada)

 

I'm at the point now where I've just accepted the fact that we wont see something like Gateway Station anytime before 2020.  There are just so many hurdles right now and it appears this thing is just dead in the water.  Soy depressed.

[Third Strike]

Does anybody know what this is about?

 

https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/planning/STIResults/R140030.pdf

 

Looking at the various transportation projects submitted to NCDOT for their new prioritization program, I noticed that the CSX/NS grade separation project was submitted for funding. Wasn't this project canned?

[kermit]

Does anybody know what this is about?

https://connect.ncdot.gov/projects/planning/STIResults/R140030.pdf

Looking at the various transportation projects submitted to NCDOT for their new prioritization program, I noticed that the CSX/NS grade separation project was submitted for funding. Wasn't this project canned?

I am pleasantly surprised by this. And, as a signifficant bonus, there is no wording about passenger rail in the description (it recieved zero points for saftey improvements???). Thankfully the folks at the rail division have decided to sell the grade seperation as the vital freight project that it is (I suspect the value of Pincoa yard to CSX is somewhat limited by restrictions at the diamond). Hopefully the the pax rail value of the project can remain under the radar which would allow more state $$$ to flow to vital pax projects like Gateway itself.

The bad news is that the proposal does not appear to include the O line flyover that was important for the Red Line (based on the near zero scores in the regional and local categories). There is also no indication of how to make the project more palatable to ADM.

EDIT: I am also surprised that NCDOT plans to pay for the entire project, I would have hoped that CSX would have been amenable to paying for a significant portion given their recent investments in Pincoa.

Edited June 14, 2014 by kermit

[southslider]

A flyover isn't necessary for the O Line / Red Line, if the CSX trenches below the NCRR / NS, and thus is lowered on each approach. The O Line is only right-of-way in this location, no tracks.

[RVA2CLT]

Great news this has traction again.

I think it is now perceived as a real and immediate need with the NS Intermodal yard fully operational. Perhaps NS had some closed door talks with Raleigh to makes sure this happens. "We'd like to offer more capacity/frequencies, but that darn CSX crossing.." wink wink nudge nudge

[15895]

So is that good news for Gateway, Red line, both or neither?

[kermit]

^ the grade seperation is important (but not critical) to Gateway -- its existence will both increase the number of trains that can get into gateway and improve their punctuality. IMO the Red Line can't really happen without the grade sep. But the red line will require a new bridge over the grade sep. Some may say that the Red Line could run down the Atando wye to get to Gateway (rather than over the grade sep), but I believe the extra five minutes that would add to the trip would be a deal breaker for most travel demand models.

In reality the only thing that the document that Third Strike found really tells us is that the grade sep is still on NCDOT's radar. But we do not know how it ranks on their priority list, so we have no idea how likely it is to attract funding. $130 million will be a tough political nut to crack for any rail project at the moment.