Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[cowboy_wilhelm]

I don't think the grade separation was ever dropped. It just wasn't going to happen in the next few years due to negotiations failing between the stakeholders, so it became ineligible for the ARRA funding and required 2017(?) completion. That funding was shifted to other projects that could (new Raleigh station? Can't remember at the moment). Now it has to compete against all other projects for NC funding instead of having federal money.

Edited June 14, 2014 by cowboy_wilhelm

[ChessieCat]

Wow, just saw a train with 12 locomotives pass by uptown/Gateway around 2pm.  They are probably getting delivered to Linwood Yard for reclassification.

[Third Strike]

It's rumored that Canadian Pacific Railway might merge/buyout CSX:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/10/12/canadian-pacific-railway-and-csx-could-possibly-unite/17156179/

 

Would something like this have any impact on Charlotte? Is Canadian Pacific Railway more "friendly" than CSX, when it comes to allowing passenger trains to use their ROW (like a hypocitical commuter line to Monroe, or a Charlotte to Wilmington line)?

[mallguy]

CP isn't buying out CSX; even if both parties wanted to do the deal, the Obama administration would block it.

 

CP's main passenger train interaction would be with VIA, Canada's version of Amtrak, which (VIA) is shrinking, so CP might not have all of the institutional experience and productive working relationship with passenger train operators that US railroads have.

[ChessieCat]

^VIA was formed so CP/CN could dispose of their loss-making passenger operations using the Amtrak model.  VIA never electrified the Quebec-Windsor Corridor which is Canada's version of the Northeast Corridor which was thankfully electrified by private railways before the creation of Amtrak.  Therefore VIA has no counterpart to the Acela Express.  Commuter rail in Ontario is run by Go Rail, another gov't agency, so there is little CP could have taught CSX regarding passenger rail.

Edited October 20, 2014 by ChessieCat

[uptownliving]

Charlotte City Council will be getting an update on Gateway Station on Monday. Here is the agenda item:

 

Synopsis
-On May 21, 2009, a Municipal Agreement was signed by the City and North
Carolina Department of Transportation (NCDOT) regarding the advancement of
the Charlotte Gateway Station (Gateway) Project. Considerable work has
occurred since that time, including securing federal grant funds from the Federal
Transit Administration (FTA), real estate acquisition by the State Department of
Transportation, and federal environmental clearance of the Project.

 

-Staff from Charlotte Area Transit System (CATS) and the NCDOT Rail Division
met recently with FTA officials to discuss the Gateway Project and path forward.

 

-CATS will provide an update to the City Council regarding the overall status of the Project.

 

Future Action
The City Council will be requested to approve a revised Municipal Agreement in early 2015.

 

More info on Monday...

[dubone]

It's funny because the more I think of this the more I think that the current location, rebuilt, will be better in the long run as long as they make an effort to join it to the Blue Line, and to have the mythical red line connect by Atando.  

 

It is 1990s thinking that all we need a lil ole stop for a couple trains within walking distance of Hugh McColl's bank.

 

We'll see if they can come up with something, but I do think that there is an opportunity to rethink things now that the Blue Line is a real thing, now that the truck-freight section of the rail yard is going away, and knowing that the ADM/CSX/N-S will be a very difficult zone for a very long time.   Also, considering the Red Line is a very weak link, even if it does happen.  

[15895]

It's funny because the more I think of this the more I think that the current location, rebuilt, will be better in the long run as long as they make an effort to join it to the Blue Line, and to have the mythical red line connect by Atando.

It is 1990s thinking that all we need a lil ole stop for a couple trains within walking distance of Hugh McColl's bank.

We'll see if they can come up with something, but I do think that there is an opportunity to rethink things now that the Blue Line is a real thing, now that the truck-freight section of the rail yard is going away, and knowing that the ADM/CSX/N-S will be a very difficult zone for a very long time. Also, considering the Red Line is a very weak link, even if it does happen.

Wouldn't the point of Gateway having access to the blue line primarily be to connect to uptown to Amtrak? So why not just build it uptown.

The blue line will be connected to gateway via the streetcar if walking was too much for people. And not that it matters but gateway in uptown would also be connected to the airport (gold line). I'm not sure if anyone would connect from the airport to Amtrak but hey.

[Guest]

Wouldn't the point of Gateway having access to the blue line primarily be to connect to uptown to Amtrak? So why not just build it uptown.

The blue line will be connected to gateway via the streetcar if walking was too much for people. And not that it matters but gateway in uptown would also be connected to the airport (gold line). I'm not sure if anyone would connect from the airport to Amtrak but hey.

I used to fly into BWI and take amtrak to Union Station, because it was miles cheaper than flying into Reagan or Dulles so its not entirely out of the question. I could see people flying into Charlotte to take the train to greensboro, winston salem, or Greenville-Spartanburg. 

[dubone]

But the only reason that Amtrak is not considered "uptown" is because it is a terrible neighborhood.  Having Amtrak uptown would be nice, but a simple transfer to the Blue Line means you distribute the people to uptown jobs easier.   Meanwhile, we already working on urbanizing and diversifying the [north end] neighborhoods.  

 

Train stations in train-using places are placed near rail yards, where you have capacity to stop multiple trains in many directions. They are NEAR their CBDs at their rail yard where there is ample infrastructure and space for many trains, then a transfer to the transit system distributes people to the CBD and other areas of the city.  Boston's, Philly's, NYC, DC, SF, LA, Chicago, Denver, London, Paris, Rome, and on and on and on.   ALL of the big city train stations are close enough to the heart of town, but far enough away to have room for the rail yards for all the connections.  

 

If you put it at Trade and Graham, there is no room for expansion, so we are permanently stuck with room for just a few trains a day. Some day, maybe 50y from now and the Carolinas are urban enough, we will have trains in every direction, not just the 2 trains.  Mooresville, Asheville, Greenville/Spartanburg (to Atlanta), Columbia (to Florida), Rockingham (to Wilmington).   They will all rely on the corridors that go through our current rail yard, which is just as close to the CBD as train stations in other big cities and room for plenty of growth from now to hundreds of years from now.  

 

 

Anyway, I've always been really for Gateway Station, but now that time has passed, a few things are clear:

• The Blue line is the heart of our transit system, not the Red Line or the Gold Line streetcar
• The train station is not truly a catalyst for development, which is why the master planning has gone no where, and the adjacent parcels are being 'catalyzed' by the baseball stadium with the Gateway Station moot (stick-built midrise apartments).
  • If it is a catalyst, why not catalyze North End/North Tryon, with all the other investments going in there.  
• ADM will not be relocated without a massive expense and fight, meaning you will always have a bottleneck there for trains, so it is better to place the station northeast of that section and reduce traffic.  
• The cemetery will be make it difficult to add tracks in the future for any new lines or capacity
• Two bus hubs is a silly idea, seemingly invented to added more uses to the Gateway Station than an actual ideal in managing a bus system. 

 

Let's start with what we have now, the Crescent train from NO to NY,  the Carolinian to Raleigh and the Blue Line from UNCC to almost Pineville.   That does not warrant a $250-500m effort of mainline separation and total build out, which is why it has never earned the funding.  Starting an incremental build out at the current location with connections to the Blue Line reduces the costs dramatically, but increases the long term viability, and actually increases the car-free distribution of passengers by a single transfer to the Blue Line.  

[go_vertical]

A very well thought out post.

[ChessieCat]

But the only reason that Amtrak is not considered "uptown" is because it is a terrible neighborhood.  Having Amtrak uptown would be nice, but a simple transfer to the Blue Line means you distribute the people to uptown jobs easier.   Meanwhile, we already working on urbanizing and diversifying the [north end] neighborhoods.  

 

Train stations in train-using places are placed near rail yards, where you have capacity to stop multiple trains in many directions. They are NEAR their CBDs at their rail yard where there is ample infrastructure and space for many trains, then a transfer to the transit system distributes people to the CBD and other areas of the city.  Boston's, Philly's, NYC, DC, SF, LA, Chicago, Denver, London, Paris, Rome, and on and on and on.   ALL of the big city train stations are close enough to the heart of town, but far enough away to have room for the rail yards for all the connections.  

 

If you put it at Trade and Graham, there is no room for expansion, so we are permanently stuck with room for just a few trains a day. Some day, maybe 50y from now and the Carolinas are urban enough, we will have trains in every direction, not just the 2 trains.  Mooresville, Asheville, Greenville/Spartanburg (to Atlanta), Columbia (to Florida), Rockingham (to Wilmington).   They will all rely on the corridors that go through our current rail yard, which is just as close to the CBD as train stations in other big cities and room for plenty of growth from now to hundreds of years from now.  

 

 

Anyway, I've always been really for Gateway Station, but now that time has passed, a few things are clear:

• The Blue line is the heart of our transit system, not the Red Line or the Gold Line streetcar
• The train station is not truly a catalyst for development, which is why the master planning has gone no where, and the adjacent parcels are being 'catalyzed' by the baseball stadium with the Gateway Station moot (stick-built midrise apartments).
  • If it is a catalyst, why not catalyze North End/North Tryon, with all the other investments going in there.  
• ADM will not be relocated without a massive expense and fight, meaning you will always have a bottleneck there for trains, so it is better to place the station northeast of that section and reduce traffic.  
• The cemetery will be make it difficult to add tracks in the future for any new lines or capacity
• Two bus hubs is a silly idea, seemingly invented to added more uses to the Gateway Station than an actual ideal in managing a bus system. 

 

Let's start with what we have now, the Crescent train from NO to NY,  the Carolinian to Raleigh and the Blue Line from UNCC to almost Pineville.   That does not warrant a $250-500m effort of mainline separation and total build out, which is why it has never earned the funding.  Starting an incremental build out at the current location with connections to the Blue Line reduces the costs dramatically, but increases the long term viability, and actually increases the car-free distribution of passengers by a single transfer to the Blue Line.  

 

Excellent post dubone.  The current Gateway station makes no sense for the reasons you explained above.

 

I've posted multiple times that the most logical location for Gateway is somewhere here, northwest of Alpha Mill:

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Alpha+Mill,+Alpha+Mill+Lane,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.233871,-80.831019&spn=0.001813,0.002642&sll=50.069734,14.401099&sspn=0.004029,0.010568&oq=alpha+mill&t=h&z=19

 

Why?

 

Every major rail corridor (BLE, NCRR/NS, AT&O, ACWR, CSX) converges at this point.  Intercity (Piedmont, Crescent, Carolinian) can be routed through here plus Commuter Rail.

 

In 2015, the FRA is expected to change its rules allowing Diesel Multiple Unit trains (DMU) to run on the same tracks as freight trains.  That opens up the possibility of DMU commuter rail (eventually) running to Davidson (Red Line, AT&O), Matthews (CSX), and Mint Hill (ACWR).  

 

While those single-tracked corridors will likely require double or even triple-tracking to mollify the railroads, by the time 2030 rolls around there could be enough ridership to justify the cost. Plus not having to electrify those corridors by running DMU's saves money plus you don't have to turn around any locomotives at a wye or operate them in push-pull mode.  See these articles for more info:

 

http://seattletransitblog.com/2014/01/03/the-cheaper-brighter-future-of-american-passenger-rail/

http://www.govtech.com/transportation/Rule-Change-Opens-the-Way-for-Better-Train-Technology.html

Edited October 27, 2014 by ChessieCat

[tozmervo]

Charlotte City Council will be getting an update on Gateway Station on Monday. Here is the agenda item:

 

Synopsis

-On May 21, 2009, a Municipal Agreement was signed by the City and North

Carolina Department of Transportation (NCDOT) regarding the advancement of

the Charlotte Gateway Station (Gateway) Project. Considerable work has

occurred since that time, including securing federal grant funds from the Federal

Transit Administration (FTA), real estate acquisition by the State Department of

Transportation, and federal environmental clearance of the Project.

 

-Staff from Charlotte Area Transit System (CATS) and the NCDOT Rail Division

met recently with FTA officials to discuss the Gateway Project and path forward.

 

-CATS will provide an update to the City Council regarding the overall status of the Project.

 

Future Action

The City Council will be requested to approve a revised Municipal Agreement in early 2015.

 

More info on Monday...

 

I'm listening to Charlotte Talks from last Monday when Mayor Clodfelter was on, and evidently he and Councilmember Vi Lyles went to Raleigh a few weeks ago to get Gateway going again, which has led directly to the issue coming back to the council.

[uptownliving]

Not many updates on the project at the City Council meeting...but here are the tidbits:

 

-The reason Hines dropped out is that not nearly as much of the NCDOT owned land in 4th Ward will be developable as they thought. Not enough developable land means not enough money for Hines...so they are gone.

-NCDOT is currently working with NS to do capacity modeling so they can get a good engineering estimate for amount of new tracks they will need for Gateway. The results of that modeling are expected to be complete in about a year.

-NCDOT will be starting construction on the train maintenance depot in Wilmore Mid 2015.

[CLTProductions]

Not many updates on the project at the City Council meeting...but here are the tidbits:

 

-The reason Hines dropped out is that not nearly as much of the NCDOT owned land in 4th Ward will be developable as they thought. Not enough developable land means not enough money for Hines...so they are gone.

-NCDOT is currently working with NS to do capacity modeling so they can get a good engineering estimate for amount of new tracks they will need for Gateway. The results of that modeling are expected to be complete in about a year.

-NCDOT will be starting construction on the train maintenance depot in Wilmore Mid 2015.

Well that's a bummer, do you have any info on the Company we are courting?

[dubone]

 

I've posted multiple times that the most logical location for Gateway is somewhere here, northwest of Alpha Mill:

...

Every major rail corridor (BLE, NCRR/NS, AT&O, ACWR, CSX) converges at this point.  Intercity (Piedmont, Crescent, Carolinian) can be routed through here plus Commuter Rail.

 

In 2015, the FRA is expected to change its rules allowing Diesel Multiple Unit trains (DMU) to run on the same tracks as freight trains.  That opens up the possibility of DMU commuter rail (eventually) running to Davidson (Red Line, AT&O), Matthews (CSX), and Mint Hill (ACWR).  

 

While those single-tracked corridors will likely require double or even triple-tracking to mollify the railroads, by the time 2030 rolls around there could be enough ridership to justify the cost. Plus not having to electrify those corridors by running DMU's saves money plus you don't have to turn around any locomotives at a wye or operate them in push-pull mode.  See these articles for more info:

 

http://seattletransitblog.com/2014/01/03/the-cheaper-brighter-future-of-american-passenger-rail/

http://www.govtech.com/transportation/Rule-Change-Opens-the-Way-for-Better-Train-Technology.html

 

YES!  I have been thinking the exact thing. 

 

The rail corridors are going to be the primary opportunity for future transit service and 100% the corridors over the very long term that will be used for any regional rail and obviously all intercity rail.   Gateway looks like an outpost station when you put it in that context.

 

Better yet, we have an extremely valuably opportunity at our rail yard that the intermodal terminal has been relocated.   Look how much land is available, even ignoring the portion purchased for the LRT vehicle storage and light maintenance yard for the Blue Line.  

 

Looking at that land, you have far more than a block and room for the tracks needed for the very long term.

 

 

Just build a traditional train station structure with with the ground floor being the track platforms, a main ticket hall on the second floor, and a tall roof structure of some architectural interest over top.  

 

I know everyone has dreamscapes that are impractical, but here is basically what I would envision as a master plan:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zFzxexr7Xo7I.kKSnKXOkVUK4

 

Frankly, anywhere in that zone would be fine, would have the benefit of making sense of a poorly designed no-mans-land.   But the key is to accept that the rail corridors as they are defined are absolutely going to be what all future corridors are based on.   Just own it and make it better rather than shoehorn into a tiny spot in downtown.     

[tozmervo]

(access to your map is permission-only)

[dubone]

Fixed. Didn't see that setting when sharing. 

[tozmervo]

I approve mightily of your dreamscaping!

[ChessieCat]

Fixed. Didn't see that setting when sharing. 

 

I approve mightily of your dreamscaping!

 

I second tozmervo's comment!  Some other things to consider so all rail corridors are in the map:

 

1) The ACWR can also he highlighted as a potential line out to Mint Hill (by 2040 that is)

2) The Southwest corridor can go all the way to the Airport.  Thankfully NCDOT has triple-tracked the area in front of CLT so the potential is there for DMU service out to the airport someday

3) The Streetcar line as planned 

4) The revival of the old P&N as a trolley line from the stadium going westward to MLK park

[Miesian Corners]

I hate to state the obvious, but how can anyone in city government know anything about our grand alternatives unless we get them the ideas?  Have any of these proposals/ideas been brought to folks at NCDOT or CATS?

Edited November 2, 2014 by Miesian Corners

[dubone]

There isn't a process going on to rethink these projects.  They're all zombies from the McCrory-Tober era but the only changes seem to be simply removing projects due to lack of funding, not rethinking the system plans based on our experience and the way the city has changed in the last 15y.

 

The CATS Transit Plan is dead after the current construction projects end, other than the hopefully successful Small Starts for the streetcar.

 

 

I wish there was a way to have a new leader step in and start a process to rethink the system from scratch reassessing how the city really is and not what we thought it may be in the 1990s.    

 

The Blue line succeeded and got built, yet it is not being considered a model for any other corridor to build on our success.  

• Our passenger rail line shares a rail corridor with it for miles, but we are going to branch off and put the station no where near it?!  Really?
• We successfully build a light rail line along a freight rail corridor, yet we ignore the freight rail corridors to the west, east, northwest and southeast.
• We rebuild/widen major thoroughfares to accommodate light rail, yet we ignore that option for serving other corridors or centers
• We don't have any plans to extend the Blue Line or branch off it like most cities start their transit systems, so very obvious branches like Ballantyne/Carolina Place, SouthPark, or even a way to 
• Imagining the Blue line in the median of 77 or 85 is absurd, yet they thought it would be a good idea on Independence?
• Dedicating right of way to transit on North Tryon or South Blvd was worth paying for, but somehow Trade, Beatties Ford, Central and Wilkinson were all too sacred to widen for light rail, so we are stuck with a streetcar plans that could still be stuck in traffic congestion.

 

There is no process and no leadership, and it is hard to throw away what has been a published plan for decades and seemed good at the time, and still seems good, but is completely proven to be a bad design.   

 

I hope it can happen, though.    Gateway station is planned in a place that is extremely short-sighted with a number of fundamental flaws that are getting hard to ignore.  

[mallguy]

Why not just build a NYC-area commuter railroad-type station and be done with this?

 

Yonkers, NY, Croton-Harmon, NY, Trenton, NJ, etc. all have stations that Amtrak uses, and that serve far more people per day than a Charlotte station will, and they're not massively expensive.  Just put up a waiting area and platform and be done with this!

[tozmervo]

because we're way more awesome than those cities.

[dubone]

That is basically what my large post proposed last week.  Relocate to a more scalable location not owned by the freight company but easily accessible with the current railroads at Parkwood at 16th then start a scalable station master plan.  Look at the airport, you don't build the whole thing on day 1, you have a standard system that you can scale into over many decades as the traffic warrants.   Put the bones in.   There is ample room at the old Intermodal Yard on Parkwood to have enough space for track connections in the next century, and initially you could even just do a platform with an enclosing structure, which eventually would be a large ticketing and transfer hall.   

 

 

I sadly agree that the demand for a full scale train station is not really necessary for a while.  But if you build it with scalability and growth over a long period, you end up being ready whenever passenger service makes economic sense in the region.      The Gateway Station is oddly backwards, with very expensive changes needed to get past the ADM and mainline crossing, but then try to build a big passenger station because of the "multimodal" aspects, it is really because of the transit components which don't even high ridership projection, and do not actually arrive INTO the station, but adjacent to it. 

 

It is just a very expensive project that has limited ability to scale and has capacity for passengers that just don't exist.    Easy to see why the "master developer" bolted almost immediately.