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Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements


dubone

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We road that same rail trip on our honeymoon about four years ago. Really fun!  I remember remarking to my wife while looking out the window, "I bet we're going 120 MPH!!".  Then, I saw the velocity gauge on the wall....  We stopped in Zaragosa on the way to Barcelona. Nice town, but the station was really stark, albeit futuristic.

 

Ironic it's a Spanish company doing the toll roads

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Buenas tardes y'all!

I just got back from 10 days in Spain and was fortunate enough to take HSR on four separate trips, the highlight being Madrid-Barcelona in 2 hours and 30 minutes (see photo). During the fastest stretch, I was standing by the door mesmerized at watching the countryside pass by at 300 km/h (186 mph)!

I learned some VERY important lessons from rail-friendly Spain about why HSR works over there and may NEVER be possible in our region, the southeast United States:

1) There must be political consensus that RAIL MUST KILL every other form of transportation. Madrid-Barcelona used to be the busiest traveled air corridor in the world as recently as 2007 with over 100 flights per day in each direction. In the US, we've seen Amtrak's Acela steal a huge amount of traffic from the airlines in the Northeast Corridor. The airlines and airport authorities have invested too much (and been subsidized too heavily with yes, taxpayer dollars) that they won't let HSR pass without a fight. Spain has the most extensive HSR network in Europe but the Madrid-Barcelona corridor is the ONLY consistently profitable route. I don't know if that will fly politically in the conservative South.

2) The cost of getting a Driver's License in Spain is over €1,000. Over here, it's a birthright for 16 year-olds. The Spanish government makes owning a car expensive on purpose because Spain and most of Europe imports the vast majority of its Crude Oil. They haven't experienced a fracking miracle like the US and never will. HSR requires electrification over vast distances which makes sense for countries that produce no petroleum but our country is already exporting Light Sweet Crude Oil. Also, Toll roads dominate in the most developed parts of Spain as a further disincentive to get people off the roads and into trains.

Sadly, I agree with Dub1 that HSR will only work in the Northeast Corridor, California, and Florida which has the population density and constrained geography to support it. With North America swimming in crude oil for the far foreseeable future, long-distance electrified passenger rail of any kind is not gonna happen in the Southeast :(

One thing that I think would sell 'murica loving southerners on HSR, and mass transit for that matter, is to frame it as a foreign policy tool. I think most people think of going green as a distinctly liberal idea, however using HSR/mass transit as part of a broad strategy to reduce or even eliminate our crude deficit and force OPEC/Russia to "choke on it" is something I think would appeal to the conservative crowd.

The advent of the US oil an natural gas boom has in some ways upended portions of the global power structure already. If our leaders, political or otherwise, are able to create incentives (i.e. build rail systems, increase fuel efficiency standards, etc) for consumers to continue to reduce their consumption of petroleum-based products, then it would serve to double down on some major power shifts already taking place. In other words, due to cheap oil, we are already crushing Russia and OPEC because most of those nations depend on petro-dollars. If we reduce our consumption of oil significantly and reduce or even balance our crude deficit, then it would have two effects: a) it would reduce the price of oil even further, crushing the economies of Russia and OPEC even more than they've been crushed already (the Russian currency is in free-fall right now); b) it would reduce said countries' ability to disrupt supply to nations who depend on them for their energy needs (i.e. the US could export oil and natural gas to countries like Ukraine and break Russia's energy stranglehold). These are some points that should be made about the benefits of HSR and mass transit to the crowd who, in large part, is suspicious of the climate change arguments used largely by greens/liberals.

Edited by cltbwimob
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Ugh.

 

Ugh!

 

The Executive Summary of the state 25 year rail plan has been released. The plan makes no mention of the red line (I may have missed it). An allocation of $210 million for Gateway Station does appear, but its not scheduled until the 2020-2035 time period! Gezzz.

 

Overall the state rail plan looks reasonable (wifi for Piedmont equipment next year!), however there are some notable omissions and delays based on what had been previously discussed (e.g. 4th Piedmont Frequency delayed till 2017-2018, 5th delayed until 2019)

 

www.ncbytrain.org/_resources/download/RailPlanExecutiveSummary.pdf

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I'm starting to be pessimistic about high speed rail. Gas prices will probably remain about where they are for the foreseeable future, so I'm not convinced that the state of things looks any better for HSR. Throw in self driving cars in the next 10 years and you basically remove any practical reason for new intracity rail investment.

I know this is a little OT but the thing that concerns me is that the reason oil prices are low and that domestic oil production is up is due to the rapid increase in shale fracking. The drop in oil prices reflect the booming US energy sector in general, and it's all being done despite the glaringly obvious environmental impacts. But don't worry, we can all get 6 figure jobs in North Dakota.

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Well there are economists that are pessimistic at the US shale fracking industry, smaller companies will not survive because shale isn't profitable with the price of oil hovering around $60 a barrel. Some shale exploration companies can manage for awhile, but if prices remain at these level for a year or more there will be some negative impact the energy sector, and states' economies that are dependent on energy can even suffer a regional recession. Also, the US demand for gasoline is in decline mainly due to Obama and EPA's regulations of more efficient cars, and millennials are driving less and less than the generations before them. However, car sales have been strong, and sales of SUVs and large crossovers are up, which IMO is shortsighted from these consumers as cheap gas won't last.

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It's certainly not being helped by the huge tax deductions being given out to people buying SUV's that weigh over 6000 lbs... 

Talk about some backwards policy. I don't think passenger rail will be beaten out by self driving cars, because even self driving cars will have traffic jams considering most vehicles will still only have one occupant. Having a relatively high speed, traffic free link from one center city to the other will definitely be a desired commodity. Besides, I imagine it's going to take years of legislation to get SDC's on the road and ever longer to become a fully integrated system. There's time. 

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The interiors have been redone and they don't feel like 1960's cars on the inside either. They may be old but the refurbished cars are essentially new in many ways. New interior, new trucks (wheels) with better ride cushioning, and large spacious seats. Like I said, they aren't super fancy (like the Talgo train sets) but they are perfectly suitable for the NC rail service for the foreseeable future.

I would love to see more modern train sets, but compared to normal Amfleet equipment used on the Carolinian (and most Amtrak routes), NCDOT's coaches take the cake.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 However, car sales have been strong, and sales of SUVs and large crossovers are up, which IMO is shortsighted from these consumers as cheap gas won't last.

 

People just don't learn and they'll be the same people crying about price gouging when oil gets back to $60-70/barrel

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It is hard to know why people make long term decisions on short term gas price changes.   But in theory they are now more aware of the possibility that it could go back to before.  The self-interest of the Saudi's in keeping production high, forcing down prices, is to bring structural demand back in the long run (more SUV's and less efficiency) and also price-squeeze new domestic shale oil which has higher production costs.   All that means that over time, prices will come back up from Saudi's giving up on that play and lowering production to support prices or they succeed and we have the supply-demand picture for a rise in prices.   It may be a while, but it is still something that doesn't make sense if you're buying a vehicle and plan to keep it more than a few years.  

 

The lower oil prices will also, however, lower the operations costs for these trains since they are diesel.   Hopefully that savings won't be offset by lower ridership.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was railfanning today and came across an interesting landmark by the Norfolk Southern tracks near Charlotte Yard.  There appear to be some abandoned bridge pylons near the intersection of W Liddell Street and N Church Street: 

 

https://www.google.com/maps?q=East+Liddell+Street,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.236855,-80.832692&spn=0.001812,0.002642&sll=35.226743,-80.858635&sspn=0.005127,0.010568&oq=liddell+stre&t=h&hnear=E+Liddell+St,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&z=19

 

Upon closer view, one of the pylons has an advertisement for "Johnson's Royal Blue Coat":

 

https://www.google.com/maps?q=28202&hl=en&ll=35.236645,-80.832057&spn=0.000453,0.00066&sll=35.203153,-80.839829&sspn=0.656443,1.352692&hnear=Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28202&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=35.236645,-80.832057&panoid=ITQO6PIgqQ6Mb3kl_r3kWQ&cbp=12,292.26,,1,1.36

 

Considering NS has a shop on the other side of the tracks, were these pylons once supporting a railway bridge?  Any further info is appreciated...

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^ I don't think it was a bridge, the pilings are typical of short elevated sidings which were used to deliver medium volumes of coal to heating fuel distributors. There are quite a few Sidings built that way around the state (very few with tracks still intact). IRRC there was one (until 4 or 5 years ago?) at Herrin Brothers at 36th st. There are also examples of these in Salisbury and High Point.

EDIT:
You can see a poor photo (the dock is over a gully) and some discussion of the coal dock in Salisbury here: http://wvncrails.weebly.com/salisbury-ice-and-fuel.html

A better photo of one in Woodfin (N Asheville) can be seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcomike/3357227780/

EDIT 2: The 1929 Sanborn map shows HV Johnson and Sons Coal yard and the siding location. It also shows an old wye to the north of the tracks adjacent to the Southern shops ( there is some visual evidence of the wye in the google sat photo)

post-18626-0-35693100-1422252159_thumb.p

Edited by kermit
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Herrin Coal and Ice on 36th at the tracks still carries bagged coal, 50 pounds per, for those who burn it in their fireplace (me), farriers, home forge operators, metal sculptors and a few other users. It comes by truck now, many years since rail delivery. The coal is pieces about the size of your hand or a bit smaller, and is offered by the mines only occasionally since their true business is coal for electric generation plants which is pulverized. Call ahead if you want it since availability is not assured. They are the only place I know which is a carrier of this bagged coal for home use.

Edited by tarhoosier
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Apologies if this is becoming a forum for all things train-related, but another train nerd question:

 

I frequently see NS trains on the CSX tracks at night near Graham Interlocking heading in either direction at a very slow speed:

https://www.google.com/maps?q=28202&hl=en&ll=35.235195,-80.834135&spn=0.000906,0.001321&sll=-33.869952,151.200349&sspn=0.010423,0.021136&hnear=Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28202&t=h&z=20

 

Are the NS trains shunting freight between NS' Charlotte Yard and CSX's yard by Rozelles' Ferry?

Edited by ChessieCat
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  • 3 weeks later...

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