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Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements


dubone

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^To shift from local rail to to regional rail:

Triangle Business Journal article on the Piedmont Improvement Program: Nothing we don't already know, but a few key points:

"When the undertaking – dubbed the Piedmont Improvement Program – is complete in 2017, there could be five commuter trains a day running from Raleigh to Charlotte. And freight, too, can add service lines."

"As freight improvements hit, so too will an already planned port expansion. And a new CSX intermodal terminal in Rocky Mount means businesses could better utilize both the port and the rail lines for cargo loads, equating to a perfect storm for economic development, he says."

"...speed increases (by pushing through one hill near the Haw River), speed can increase from 55 to 80 miles per hour"

"There remains a last-mile problem, getting from that station to your actual destination [...] and conversations are underway with transit firms across the state. They’re working to develop what he calls a “transfer pass,” where passengers could travel on trains and buses on the same trip ticket. And Worley says he’d like to see partnerships extend to taxis and ride-share services such as Uber."

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On 7/20/2016 at 3:28 PM, kermit said:

^ I am usually wrong and I don't disagree with any of your perspective. However my concerns about Wilmington are about trends in intermodal that were evident long before Post-Panamax issues appeared. Container freight in general has become increasingly concentrated in large ports because intermodal is so capital intensive. Wilmington's location in the shadow of three massive ports means it is never going to attract enough units to justify the investments necessary to keep it competitive for anything other than castoff traffic.  

I am pessimistic on the Port of Wilmington's future because container ports are consolidating as fast as they can (a process that was accelerated by the canal expansion), the smaller ports will undergo a process of obsolescence that will ultimately drive most traffic elsewhere. Wilmington will never have cranes as fast as Charleston, it will never has as much longshoremen capacity as Savannah. It will never have as many RTGs as Norfolk. It will never be served by multiple railroads (so off dock costs will always be much higher than for other SE ports). These off dock costs will also make the port marginally less attractive for breakbulk or roro. Finally, NC's megaproject failures mean that we have very few industrial products in the Wilmington hinterlands that justify containerization or roro

I do agree, Wilmington will survive. But it will only survive because its not busy and can accommodate miscellaneous traffic and its sporadic bursts of traffic from Lejeune. If it ever gets busy it will become more cost effective for the 5,000 TEU ships to go to Charleston. Wilmington just can't grow enough to flourish.

I agree with all of this. North Carolina should be investing in the port - they'd be crazy not to - but the eastern seaboard is crowded with large ports all vying to be the biggest and best, and they all have a few hundred years head start.

 

On 7/20/2016 at 3:35 PM, tarhoosier said:

OT, somewhat. Some years ago friend vacationed in Europe and bought a Mercedes convertible to drive for the trip and then ship home. Arrangements were made to ship to Wilmington. All good. Friend arranged for me to drive him there to meet ship and car and follow home. Mercedes called two days ahead to confirm arrival time. All good. For first time my friend then discovered that the arrival was port of Wilmington...Delaware.

If you knew JD you would not be surprised at this confusion.

Isn't the port expansion area actually located in South Port, not Wilmington?

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2 hours ago, Spartan said:

 

I agree with all of this. North Carolina should be investing in the port - they'd be crazy not to - but the eastern seaboard is crowded with large ports all vying to be the biggest and best, and they all have a few hundred years head start.

 

Isn't the port expansion area actually located in South Port, not Wilmington?

And the Southport plan was abandoned due to NIMBY opposistion.

Edited by kermit
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Glad it sounds like the rail portion is moving forward while design on the real station is done. I posted this over at the NC intercity rail thread but will repeat here: CBJ did a poll on "would you commute from CLT to Raleigh by rail?" 78% said yes! (standard disclaimers apply). There is a huge amount of economic activity to be gained if we can turn the Piedmont cities into a single labor market. Gateway (and the Charlotte service yard) is a necessary improvement before this can happen but, other than that, uniting the Gboro, RDU, CLT labor markets is a totally realistic possibility based on commuting patterns elsewhere.

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/pulse/poll/would-you-commute-by-rail-from-charlotte-to-raleigh/20253222

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4 hours ago, kermit said:

Glad it sounds like the rail portion is moving forward while design on the real station is done. I posted this over at the NC intercity rail thread but will repeat here: CBJ did a poll on "would you commute from CLT to Raleigh by rail?" 78% said yes! (standard disclaimers apply). There is a huge amount of economic activity to be gained if we can turn the Piedmont cities into a single labor market. Gateway (and the Charlotte service yard) is a necessary improvement before this can happen but, other than that, uniting the Gboro, RDU, CLT labor markets is a totally realistic possibility based on commuting patterns elsewhere.

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/pulse/poll/would-you-commute-by-rail-from-charlotte-to-raleigh/20253222

 

Is there a list of proposed stations between Raleigh and Charlotte somewhere?

Kannapolis just announced a plan for their downtown that includes an arts center and new baseball stadium.  This is on the back of an already charming downtown that is right on the rail line.  

I don't think it would be hard to project a massive boom in Kannapolis if they connected it to Uptown Charlotte via rail  I know a connection already exists but there is a huge difference between ending your trip at the current Amtrak and ending your trip at the new stations with additional connections.

Very exciting stuff for sure!

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/development/article93570577.html

 

 

 

 

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^ Lexington and Hillsborough are the only new stations under discussion at the moment. 

There would likely be several more stations added if true commuter service out of Charlotte and Raleigh is created (commuter rail in the Triangle looks likely)

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22 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Went to the Gateway Station visioning concept meeting today - just right now I don't have time to leave extensive thoughts, but I am attaching scans of the handouts. There are three broad "concepts" that were shown to illicit feedback. The primary goal right now is to tie down an area plan and goals - the track work is proceeding, so they want to establish the area plan to guide the development that's coming. It's still felt that the station itself will be a P3 pursuit; the platform and canopy structures would come first and be publicly funded. 

16-0803 Gateway Bridge Station Concept.pdf

16-0803 Gateway Handout.pdf

16-0803 Gateway Principles.pdf

16-0803 Gateway Wilkes Ext Station Concept.pdf

16-0803 Gateway Atrium Station Concept.pdf

This is good stuff. I'd be ok with any of those concepts. I personally like the 'bridge station' idea best since it would free up more space for vertical development and retail on the main block.

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On 8/3/2016 at 1:10 PM, tozmervo said:

Went to the Gateway Station visioning concept meeting today - just right now I don't have time to leave extensive thoughts, but I am attaching scans of the handouts. There are three broad "concepts" that were shown to illicit feedback. The primary goal right now is to tie down an area plan and goals - the track work is proceeding, so they want to establish the area plan to guide the development that's coming.

Made me chuckle. I realize you were in a rush...but I think what they want is to elicit feedback, and not illicit feedback.

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On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 8:21 AM, cjd5050 said:

 

Is there a list of proposed stations between Raleigh and Charlotte somewhere?

Kannapolis just announced a plan for their downtown that includes an arts center and new baseball stadium.  This is on the back of an already charming downtown that is right on the rail line.  

I don't think it would be hard to project a massive boom in Kannapolis if they connected it to Uptown Charlotte via rail  I know a connection already exists but there is a huge difference between ending your trip at the current Amtrak and ending your trip at the new stations with additional connections.

Very exciting stuff for sure!

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/development/article93570577.html

 

 

 

 

There is a station proposed for Hillsborough construction in 2017-18 possible, funded partially by local transit tax. I also heard of a possible Lexington station.

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On 8/4/2016 at 9:44 AM, kermit said:

^ Lexington and Hillsborough are the only new stations under discussion at the moment. 

There would likely be several more stations added if true commuter service out of Charlotte and Raleigh is created (commuter rail in the Triangle looks likely)

 

8 hours ago, staffer said:

There is a station proposed for Hillsborough construction in 2017-18 possible, funded partially by local transit tax. I also heard of a possible Lexington station.

I also believe Harrisburg is another proposed station along the NCRR. I'm surprised Concord isn't a proposed stop. It's the second largest city between Charlotte and Greensboro, and the third largest between Charlotte and Durham.

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2 hours ago, Third Strike said:

I also believe Harrisburg is another proposed station along the NCRR. I'm surprised Concord isn't a proposed stop. It's the second largest city between Charlotte and Greensboro, and the third largest between Charlotte and Durham.

Keep in mind that 1) new stops slow service (and the train needs to be faster than driving) and 2) the train is a political animal -- so one stop per county is desirable to maximize political support, but two stops per county has diminishing returns.

A Charlotte to Salisbury commuter line would look something like this: Gateway, Sugar Creek, UNCC (485 and 49 a short blue line extension would be awesome) "downtown" Harrisburg, Concord  (Cabarrus ave), Concord transit center, Kannapolis, Landis,China Grove (near I-85), Salisbury, Spencer. Its actually a pretty decent route, but the new stations would need to be on new sidings since NCRR will not allow new stations on the main -- so construction will be expensive

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On 8/3/2016 at 2:10 PM, tozmervo said:

Went to the Gateway Station visioning concept meeting today - just right now I don't have time to leave extensive thoughts, but I am attaching scans of the handouts. There are three broad "concepts" that were shown to illicit feedback. The primary goal right now is to tie down an area plan and goals - the track work is proceeding, so they want to establish the area plan to guide the development that's coming. It's still felt that the station itself will be a P3 pursuit; the platform and canopy structures would come first and be publicly funded. 

16-0803 Gateway Bridge Station Concept.pdf

16-0803 Gateway Handout.pdf

16-0803 Gateway Principles.pdf

16-0803 Gateway Wilkes Ext Station Concept.pdf

16-0803 Gateway Atrium Station Concept.pdf

I know these are only concept drawings, but are they not leaving any room to add additional platforms in the future?

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Two thoughts. If Gateway is really going to be built following one of these models - then it seems it will only serve four platforms, at most. So what this means is that realistically, there has to be a new station configuration built on the north side of uptown. 4 platforms can really probably only handle about 12 -16 trains an hour. That may sound like a lot, and I'm sure it will work for 20/40 years even with commuter lines. But don't think that this is any long-term solution.

Secondly, as to the line to Raleigh for inter-connectivity, I know it increases traffic to go through Greensboro, but again, the long-term solution is different, I think than the short-term. In the long run, a path from Raleigh to Charlotte that goes south to Sanford and then West will be much easier to build at the specifications needed for higher speed traffic. It also would shave off between 30-50 miles of distance.

Unfortunately, we need both the practical short-term solutions, as well as the long-term vision to go ahead and buy the land and the trackage necessary. Good luck with that.

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That is awesome that they have all those imaginary rail lines to all those places, but it really sucks that our only light rail line that actually exists won't have any direct connection to any of them.

No expert here but it seems pretty inefficient (or just lacked long term planning) to have gateway and the blue line be separated by 7 blocks.


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On 8/10/2016 at 11:05 AM, tozmervo said:

The CATS website on Gateway was updated, also includes a plan that dashes out "potential future" commuter connections to Monroe, Rock Hill and Gastonia. 

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/planning/facilities/gatewaystation/Pages/default.aspx?platform=hootsuite

How awesome will it be when/if this happens?  Then we'll just need a subway running under Stonewall, Graham, 11th and McDowell and I'll die happy...

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