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Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

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1 minute ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Not anywhere near as great as 485. :( 

I mean. You still could, you'd just have to do Blue line, Gold Line, Silver Line. Though admittedly Blue Line Silver Line would be nice. 

Edited by ricky_davis_fan_21

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I too am disappointed by the suggested Brookshire routing for the Silver Line. It ignores the current growth axis of uptown and runs through an area with relatively few opportunities for large-scale office growth (its gonna be a long while before Optimist Park becomes as large an office Submarket as Southend) and that wall of 277 will remain an impediment to circulation.  My biggest concern with the routing is its going to require riders from the east who work in the BoA cluster to either walk 7-10 blocks each day or take a two seat ride. At current frequencies, two seat rides are likely to be slower than walking. Gateway access is good, but this feels (to me) like a routing that will miss most uptown jobs in favor of some future development that may never materialize.

My first choice was a Stonewall route (although missing Gateway is a major downside) and my second choice was sharing the Gold Line route but closing the street to auto traffic and giving it true signal priority -- this would give uptown E-W circulation a very high-frequency.

 

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1 hour ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Its really a shame, Daniel Levine gets himself two train lines on his land. CATS was due to finalize routes/engineering plan of the route very soon, this actually might be able to be treated as dogma.

15 minutes ago, kermit said:

I too am disappointed by the suggested Brookshire routing for the Silver Line.

I disagree, this approach balances out the system to not be overly dependent on one corridor through Uptown.

16 minutes ago, kermit said:

My biggest concern with the routing is its going to require riders from the east who work in the BoA cluster to either walk 7-10 blocks each day or take a two seat ride.

We've determined in the past that -- unless you raise the BL on bridges all through Uptown -- the only way to get more capacity past 3-train cars is to increase frequency. With 5 minute intervals staggered across 2 lines you would not have to wait more then 3 minutes for the connecting train.

As the city grows and as LevineLand™ gets bought from him, piece by piece, First Ward will be transformed beyond what we've seen on Stonewall. Combine it with the BL and growth that is already underway north of I-277 I believe this Silver Line alignment will change the calculus for the entire First Ward.

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Definitely interesting that it is a blend (or more so "meet in the middle") of the two routes previously proposed. 

West Map.jpg

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On 12/7/2018 at 8:35 AM, Matthew.Brendan said:

Is it really going out to Belmont? That will be fantastic. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that Belmont is receptive and even supportive of it?

Public meetings have revealed that Gaston county is very supportive of having LRT service to Charlotte. The new bridge over the Catawba means that the west line will almost certainly go to Belmont -if- Gaston finds $80million (or so) to pay for it. 

(who pays for the portion of the line between 485 and the bridge will be the subject of lots of additional discussion)

Edited by kermit
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19 hours ago, kermit said:

I too am disappointed by the suggested Brookshire routing for the Silver Line. It ignores the current growth axis of uptown and runs through an area with relatively few opportunities for large-scale office growth (its gonna be a long while before Optimist Park becomes as large an office Submarket as Southend) and that wall of 277 will remain an impediment to circulation.  My biggest concern with the routing is its going to require riders from the east who work in the BoA cluster to either walk 7-10 blocks each day or take a two seat ride. At current frequencies, two seat rides are likely to be slower than walking. Gateway access is good, but this feels (to me) like a routing that will miss most uptown jobs in favor of some future development that may never materialize.

The way I see it, that southern portion of Uptown abutting Midtown/South Charlotte is fine regardless, due to its South Charlotte adjacent location (just like S Tryon St). Midtown is so auto-centric, and the area is just so patchy from it's historical growth pattern, no matter what's built. I'd like to leave that area well enough alone and contribute value to areas that need and deserve it.

Granted I know it's possible I'm over playing my hand with First Ward, but - IMHO - it has FAR more potential at being a great city neighborhood than Third Ward or Second Ward, even without transit, but these two lines send it over the top - tighter street grid, it's all at-grade for transit, it just overall feels more like a cohesive area, especially with the garden district and 4th Ward nearby.

Despite the OP/NoDa area's restrictions for highrise development, they still have more potential - again, IMHO - to be great city neighborhoods than South End. Call it an affinity for more incremental growth but I think the office will come, it just may be boutique style for a long time 

Edited by SgtCampsalot
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A transfer station would be needed between Blue and Silver. If the latter crosses over on 11th, then the former's existing station at 9th would need to be relocated northward. Otherwise, you end up with stations on Blue closer together than the existing CTC and 3rd St stations.

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Trying to gain perspective here. There is a rush of information about a project that won’t materialize for maybe 15 years ?

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6 minutes ago, Dale said:

Trying to gain perspective here. There is a rush of information about a project that won’t materialize for maybe 15 years ?

Developers want to know ASAP

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13 minutes ago, kermit said:

Developers want to know ASAP

Possibility of an accelerated timetable ?

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18 minutes ago, Dale said:

Possibility of an accelerated timetable ?

I would not bet on that*

*Unless we get a "Green New Deal" in 2021 which provided both funding and streamlined approvals / permitting / relaxed buy-America requirements for transit  (which I think is incredibly unlikely)

Edited by kermit

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2 hours ago, kermit said:

*Unless we get a "Green New Deal" in 2021 which provided both funding and streamlined approvals / permitting / relaxed buy-America requirements for transit  (which I think is incredibly unlikely)

@kermitfor president.

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14 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Despite the OP/NoDa area's restrictions for highrise development, they still have more potential - again, IMHO - to be great city neighborhoods than South End. Call it an affinity for more incremental growth but I think the office will come, it just may be boutique style for a long time 

OP/ NoDa areas have restrictions on high-rises?  Or you mean their street networks aren't conducive for high-Rise buildings.  

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4 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

OP/ NoDa areas have restrictions on high-rises?  Or you mean their street networks aren't conducive for high-Rise buildings.  

A few contributers here have mentioned that the development world sees these areas' street networks as not conducive to high rise construction (a grocery store was cited as a particular difficulty).

Though realistically, based on my own experience at neighborhood groups, these areas more heavily consisting in single-family, there will inevitably be more opposition to such construction for x amount of years until opinions shift.

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OP/ NoDa areas have restrictions on high-rises?  Or you mean their street networks aren't conducive for high-Rise buildings.  

I mean everywhere outside of uptown has restrictions until it’s been rezoned.


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Yes I see - Rezonings would be required as true high-Rise buildings could not just be constructed 'by right'.

Dang I can't wait until the UDO is finalized.  The TOD Designations along Transit corridors should ease things some even though the planning staff told me (by responding to my comments/participation in the process) they were opposed to raising the maximum building heights permitted (W/O bonus) along The two (2) most intense TOD Designations.

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Yes I see - Rezonings would be required as true high-Rise buildings could not just be constructed 'by right'.

Dang I can't wait until the UDO is finalized.  The TOD Designations along Transit corridors should ease things some even though the planning staff told me (by responding to my comments/participation in the process) they were opposed to raising the maximum building heights permitted (W/O bonus) along The two (2) most intense TOD Designations.

Well after the UDO height restrictions in those transit nodes would be around 250’ by right, and they will have to make certain criteria on a checklist to increase the height incrementally up to 250. In essence, It’ll be much shorter by right.

 

 

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On 12/7/2018 at 9:58 AM, southslider said:

A transfer station would be needed between Blue and Silver. If the latter crosses over on 11th, then the former's existing station at 9th would need to be relocated northward. Otherwise, you end up with stations on Blue closer together than the existing CTC and 3rd St stations.

I don't think they would build another or move the Blue station.  9th St Station is between 9 and 10th, so they would expect people to walk from the 11th street Silver stop.

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16 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

A few contributers here have mentioned that the development world sees these areas' street networks as not conducive to high rise construction (a grocery store was cited as a particular difficulty).

Though realistically, based on my own experience at neighborhood groups, these areas more heavily consisting in single-family, there will inevitably be more opposition to such construction for x amount of years until opinions shift.

I don't think Optimist Park has as many entrenched NIMBY type of single-family homeowners, but it suffers from being adjacent to the large rail yard with little ways to connect humans to Tryon.  A lot of bottlenecks IMO.  I think will be a good and relatively dense residential neighborhood though.  Just hard to see high rises there unless something changes with NS and that land is available to connect  north Charlotte together.

As an aside, there has been a marked raise in riders at Parkwood Station the last few weeks. 

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7 hours ago, Desert Power said:

I don't think they would build another or move the Blue station.  9th St Station is between 9 and 10th, so they would expect people to walk from the 11th street Silver stop.

They already expect folks to walk farther between Blue and Gold Lines at CTC station, so I wouldn't put it past them. But if there's one way to change CATS, it's to negatively affect choice rail customers.

Just look at the PR fiasco that happened with the bus bridge following Hurricane Michael. If more of their rail customers experienced the poor service their bus customers regularly endure, then maybe there'd be more public pressure for better overall service.

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What would be ideal, IMO, is to run the silver line and Brookshire in a new tunnel, with surface street/Greenway above....you could weave the grid back together between Uptown and North End....this probably makes sense between Davidson and Church.

You could add a transfer station there at 12th. 

I would rather have street car along Stonewall.... ideally using Graham up to Camp North End and Kenilworth into Dilworth.

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On 12/9/2018 at 11:43 AM, atlrvr said:

I would rather have street car along Stonewall.... ideally using Graham up to Camp North End and Kenilworth into Dilworth.

This! More streetcars for uptown and inner-hood circulation would hugely change the nature of intown living and working. This route would provide a nice complement to the Gold Line and fill a bunch of transit / walkability gaps.

Based on the Gold Line's current price for its 4 mile route (roughly $185 million), the route from East-West station to CMC, to Stonewall, Graham and then up to Camp North End  would be about $275 million. Seems like a bargain -- only $7 million* of incremental property tax revenue is necessary to pay for it over 40 years.  The city could nearly get that from  Camp North End becoming a small office district. 

* only $3.5 million per year if we got the same 50% fed match we received for the Gold Line

Edited by kermit
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Without better prioritisation and dedicated right of ways street cars aren't very popular to the public and in general are more of a commodity than a true transit option.

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14 minutes ago, Nick2 said:

Without better prioritisation and dedicated right of ways street cars aren't very popular to the public and in general are more of a commodity than a true transit option.

I don’t really like streetcars too much. But I’m definitely happy with the gold line routing and could get behind a stonewall line.

 

but I agree that it has to have dedicated lanes and traffic priority. 15 minute headway’s and traffic. A lot of times in other places it’s literally faster to walk. Though I will say I was definitelt a regular of the gold line and thought it was pretty convenient. 

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