Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[southslider]

Just add some pavement markings and signage, then the Gold Line could operate in exclusive lanes.  

[dubone]

On 12/10/2018 at 9:09 AM, southslider said:

Just add some pavement markings and signage, then the Gold Line could operate in exclusive lanes.  

I think this is a big necessity in the long run.  Trade Street is already a lesser used street, so there is no reason, especially to save a fortune on the Silver line, they can't dedicate the lanes or street as transit only and just operate with buses on the lanes. 

 

But definitely as it gets farther out if they ever do Central Ave, there really should be room made to dedicate the lanes more like light rail.  

[Desert Power]

On 12/12/2018 at 2:05 PM, dubone said:

I think this is a big necessity in the long run.  Trade Street is already a lesser used street, so there is no reason, especially to save a fortune on the Silver line, they can't dedicate the lanes or street as transit only and just operate with buses on the lanes. 

 

But definitely as it gets farther out if they ever do Central Ave, there really should be room made to dedicate the lanes more like light rail.  

I would love to see Trade Street closed for everything except transit and bike/pedestrian.  Like SF has done with Market Street.

[Nick2]

2 minutes ago, Desert Power said:

I would love to see Trade Street closed for everything except transit and bike/pedestrian.  Like SF has done with Market Street.

This is such a good idea. But where would it be closed from? Throughout all of uptown or more seems excessive. Church to Caldwell would be reasonable since it's the densest area but is that long enough to be worth it?

[Desert Power]

4 minutes ago, Nick2 said:

This is such a good idea. But where would it be closed from? Throughout all of uptown or more seems excessive. Church to Caldwell would be reasonable since it's the densest area but is that long enough to be worth it?

The good thing about doing it across all Uptown IMO is that you connect to a greenway on each end of it.   Trying to find a bike path through town to connect those greenways has been tough and they're eventually are planning to close parts of 5th and 6th for it, so we could preserve those streets that function well for moving big traffic.

You would at least want to have it from Caldwell to Graham though with the stadiums and future Amtrak on Graham. 

[Nick2]

2 hours ago, Desert Power said:

The good thing about doing it across all Uptown IMO is that you connect to a greenway on each end of it.   Trying to find a bike path through town to connect those greenways has been tough and they're eventually are planning to close parts of 5th and 6th for it, so we could preserve those streets that function well for moving big traffic.

You would at least want to have it from Caldwell to Graham though with the stadiums and future Amtrak on Graham. 

I really like the idea of having it connect to green ways on either end. Sugar Creek and irwin/stewart Creek are already there and the rail trail will be able to connect as well eventually once they add the bridge over 277. It would make CLT considerably more bike and pedestrian friendly. Trade is such a heavily traveled street though so I can't help but wonder if parallel streets could handle the additional vehicle traffic.

I wonder how it could work out if they made trade only 3 lanes (with turn). They can eliminate the sidewalk on one side and street parking for the greenway.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Nick2

[kermit]

9 hours ago, Nick2 said:

Trade is such a heavily traveled street though so I can't help but wonder if parallel streets could handle the additional vehicle traffic.

It was not a problem at all when Trade was closed for two(ish) years for Street car phase 1 construction.

The best opportunity to close the street will be immediately after construction is finished, since Trade will have been closed for a while and, based on last time,  no one will miss it.

[jtmonk]

Not a fan of closing down Trade.  Remember in the 70's and 80's when cities closed down a main street basically killing off commercial and pedestrian activity in these areas?  Ask Raleigh or Winston or a number of other cities throughout the US how that turn out.  Yes, there are examples where this worked.  However, these places have: 1) a large university at or near the closed street; 2) located in an area of high tourism; 3) a built environment that already encourages pedestrian activity; plus numerous other variables.  Unfortunately, Trade Street doesn't have this.   Even with the Gold Line, there isn't a sufficient amount of activity along many parts of Trade that would make this work.  Now if Trade Street had a number of turn of the century buildings with retail, commercial and residential uses then yeah, maybe it would work, but unfortunately we don't have that.  

The best bet for CATS is to synchronize the lights on Trade to  better accommodate the Street Car.  

[Desert Power]

1 hour ago, jtmonk said:

Not a fan of closing down Trade.  Remember in the 70's and 80's when cities closed down a main street basically killing off commercial and pedestrian activity in these areas?  Ask Raleigh or Winston or a number of other cities throughout the US how that turn out.  Yes, there are examples where this worked.  However, these places have: 1) a large university at or near the closed street; 2) located in an area of high tourism; 3) a built environment that already encourages pedestrian activity; plus numerous other variables.  Unfortunately, Trade Street doesn't have this.   Even with the Gold Line, there isn't a sufficient amount of activity along many parts of Trade that would make this work.  Now if Trade Street had a number of turn of the century buildings with retail, commercial and residential uses then yeah, maybe it would work, but unfortunately we don't have that.  

The best bet for CATS is to synchronize the lights on Trade to  better accommodate the Street Car.  

I certainly appreciate that it is a risky endeavor and I do not remember the 70s and 80s because I wasn't alive.  A few counter points to consider:

1.  Lanes are potentially being closed regardless to connect the greenways.  I feel like it would be better to do them on a less traveled street like Trade than on 5th/6th
2. Trade really isn't a main street for car traffic crossing town.  It backs up a lot when people from out of town are coming and use it instead of the 5th/6th and 3rd/4th pairs.  It will be messier once the Gold Line is complete
3.  Having this as a partial greenway through town could become a tourist attraction for visitors

[jtmonk]

33 minutes ago, Desert Power said:

I certainly appreciate that it is a risky endeavor and I do not remember the 70s and 80s because I wasn't alive.  A few counter points to consider:

1.  Lanes are potentially being closed regardless to connect the greenways.  I feel like it would be better to do them on a less traveled street like Trade than on 5th/6th
2. Trade really isn't a main street for car traffic crossing town.  It backs up a lot when people from out of town are coming and use it instead of the 5th/6th and 3rd/4th pairs.  It will be messier once the Gold Line is complete
3.  Having this as a partial greenway through town could become a tourist attraction for visitors

I was only born in 85 but many of these street closures lasted through the 2000's, I believe Raleigh just converted Fayetteville Street back to vehicular traffic in 2006 with great success in revitalizing their downtown.  I'm a City Planner and remember in college learning about pedestrian malls/street closures and the uphill battles they faced.   Unfortunately most of them fail.   There are a lot of pieces that have to fall in place in order for these to work and I just do not think Trade Street has them yet.  One other thing  to consider are the hotels that have pick up and drop off on Trade Street in Uptown.  It will take a lot of money to reconfigure these hotels to have their pick up/drop off areas moved, if that's even possible from an engineering/structural standpoint. 

As for your counter points ,  I agree with them to an extent.   I think there's room for some sort of dedicated greenway/bike path on parts of Trade Street and think its better than taking a lane from 5th/6th street.  However, I think this can be accomplished without closing the street down to vehicles.  

[queensguy06]

I could see Trade becoming something similar to the 16th Street Mall in Denver with streetcar instead of the free mall ride (buses) that are used in Denver.  Denver had Cobb & Associates as architects to redesign the street to include retail along the way - this is what Charlotte would require.  Bring in an architect to design a walkable retail corridor that could be done in sections.  It still provides cross traffic for all streets over trade, just no through traffic down Trade itself.  I'd imagine it could be done in phases, too.  First phase would be from the transportation center/light rail/arena through Church Street.  Then as Gateway Station is built you could add Church to the new train station.  Eventually, you could extend it the other direction from CTC to McDowell.  Additionally, for existing hotel shuttles/utility vehicles they would have access to the streetcar dedicated right of way much in the way the free mall shuttle operates in Denver.

Pipe dreams, I know - but it certainly is feasible and would bring a lot of pedestrian traffic/tourist traffic to center city much in the way of Denver.

[kermit]

There are lots of potential models for reducing traffic on Trade to give transit, peds and bikes priority. I am not sure the Fayetteville street comparison from 40 years ago is very  informative.

I think the easiest first step would be to close Trade to through traffic and get rid of any remaining on street parking. This would allow existing business entrances to remain accessible to vehicles, but the overall reduction in traffic would make the corridor much friendlier to alternative transportation users. A similar strategy has been used successfully on the King Street streetcar corridor in Toronto this year.   

Keep in mind that Fayetteville street, etc was done back when no one lived downtown and relatively few people worked there. Today far more pedestrians walk though the Tryon and Trade intersection each day than drive through it. The presence of the streetcar (if it is high frequency enough), buses and stray cars accessing businesses will (I think) keep the street active enough to avoid a 1980s pedestrian mall situation. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by kermit

[SydneyCarton]

I’d love to see the disgusting transportation center/bus terminal replaced with a beautiful plaza which could become Charlotte’s Rockefeller Center.

 

[Dale]

29 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I’d love to see the disgusting transportation center/bus terminal replaced with a beautiful plaza which could become Charlotte’s Rockefeller Center.

 

I’ve heard on here that we’re stuck with the TC for the foreseeable future.

[SydneyCarton]

4 hours ago, Dale said:

I’ve heard on here that we’re stuck with the TC for the foreseeable future.

That’s a shame.  It’s such a waste of prime space, and who even uses it?  I don’t think that anyone is taking the bus from Piper Glen or other upscale communities to BofA.

[DMann]

A lot of people do not live in Piper Glen, a lot of people come through town and transfer to get to their job.  Please do not plan on having a city of Piper Glenians!

 

[kermit]

35 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

That’s a shame.  It’s such a waste of prime space, and who even uses it?  I don’t think that anyone is taking the bus from Piper Glen or other upscale communities to BofA.

I use it.

Everytime I am there its pretty busy.

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

That’s a shame.  It’s such a waste of prime space, and who even uses it?  I don’t think that anyone is taking the bus from Piper Glen or other upscale communities to BofA.

Thousands and thousands of people transfer through it every day

[Desert Power]

5 hours ago, queensguy06 said:

I could see Trade becoming something similar to the 16th Street Mall in Denver with streetcar instead of the free mall ride (buses) that are used in Denver.  Denver had Cobb & Associates as architects to redesign the street to include retail along the way - this is what Charlotte would require.  Bring in an architect to design a walkable retail corridor that could be done in sections.  It still provides cross traffic for all streets over trade, just no through traffic down Trade itself.  I'd imagine it could be done in phases, too.  First phase would be from the transportation center/light rail/arena through Church Street.  Then as Gateway Station is built you could add Church to the new train station.  Eventually, you could extend it the other direction from CTC to McDowell.  Additionally, for existing hotel shuttles/utility vehicles they would have access to the streetcar dedicated right of way much in the way the free mall shuttle operates in Denver.

Pipe dreams, I know - but it certainly is feasible and would bring a lot of pedestrian traffic/tourist traffic to center city much in the way of Denver.

The bold is certainly my intent on this proposal.  Apologies is that wasn't clear.

 

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

That’s a shame.  It’s such a waste of prime space, and who even uses it?  I don’t think that anyone is taking the bus from Piper Glen or other upscale communities to BofA.

Happens a lot.  My boss has used it pretty much his whole career from Cotswold.

[SydneyCarton]

I didn’t realize that so many people to the bus.  When I lived in Ballentyne  and Myers Park, everyone I knew who worked Uptown drove, though some took the Lynx.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by SydneyCarton

[KJHburg]

Construction today at the Gateway station site. 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by KJHburg

[nicholas]

[southslider]

On 12/14/2018 at 4:44 PM, kermit said:

There are lots of potential models for reducing traffic on Trade to give transit, peds and bikes priority. I am not sure the Fayetteville street comparison from 40 years ago is very  informative.

I think the easiest first step would be to close Trade to through traffic and get rid of any remaining on street parking. This would allow existing business entrances to remain accessible to vehicles, but the overall reduction in traffic would make the corridor much friendlier to alternative transportation users. A similar strategy has been used successfully on the King Street streetcar corridor in Toronto this year.   

Keep in mind that Fayetteville street, etc was done back when no one lived downtown and relatively few people worked there. Today far more pedestrians walk though the Tryon and Trade intersection each day than drive through it. The presence of the streetcar (if it is high frequency enough), buses and stray cars accessing businesses will (I think) keep the street active enough to avoid a 1980s pedestrian mall situation. 

Except for two blocks just west of McDowell in one direction (westbound to Alexander) and new lane confirgurations for Phase 2 at Church and College Streets (new turn lanes), you could close the entire tracks inside 277 to traffic, still leaving another lane open for through-traffic.

[KJHburg]

this is apart of the Gateway train station railroad construction along 5th St.   Today. 

[Scribe]

Wow! they already took down the old (low) bridge! Exciting times... I plan on being on the first Amtrak train out of Charlotte (to DC) when CGS opens Uptown (in any capacity)!