Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[TotalLamer]

One thing to note though is that doublestacks can't fit under CSX's bridge over the Catawba. Granted, that bridge is in desperate need of replacement anyway, so perhaps that's in the cards.

[orulz]

Doesn't CSX own the former P&N, and furthermore, operate it together with the former Seaboard line to some degree as a double track railroad from Pinoca to Mount Holly?

The old P&N bridge has no superstructure and thus no height restrictions. Why can't they just use that? Are there some weight restrictions on that bridge that make it impractical? Are there any other restrictions on the line preventing double stacks?

[TotalLamer]

That's right, CSX operates the former P&N track from just past the old Mount Holly station all the way into Charlotte. The line past the BlueLinx lumber yard and in towards Uptown / Freedom Drive is currently out of service, however. Most of the industries we still serviced down that way towards Cedar left during the recession... primarily Armen which used to be just over the Freedom crossing. Going the other direction, once you reach Mount Holly, the old P&N towards Gastonia is operated by a new shortline also called the P&N. We interchange with them sometimes. The section of "double track" where the P&N parallels the CSX mainline is known as the Mount Holly Siding. The big issue is that the track going from the Mount Holly Siding back towards Pinoca Yard is... not of the highest quality. It's better than the track from Pinoca towards Uptown (which is ATROCIOUS) but it's surely not something they want to run a big intermodal along.

Edited November 16, 2012 by TotalLamer

[orulz]

So is the track called "Mount Holly Siding", the former P&N all the way from Pinoca to Mount Holly, or is it just the "double track" part where the lines are right next to each other from I-485 into Mount Holly?

At any rate I don't think the Clinchfield has been cleared for double stack either with its numerous tunnels and such, so any theoretical intermodal traffic through Charlotte between the east coast and the midwest via the Clinchfield would have to be single-stack only. But I don't think there's much (any?) intermodal traffic over the Clinch anyway at the moment, mostly just coal. But it never hurts to plan for the future.

[TotalLamer]

First, a quick note... from Charlotte, CSX heading towards Monroe is "Northbound" and heading towards Bostic is "Southbound". I know it doesn't make any sense, but that's just the way it is. Here is the "south end" of the Mount Holly Siding: http://binged.it/XeYRGe This is the "north end" of the Mount Holly Siding: http://binged.it/TQmRd1

Oh and right around here is where CSX interchanges with the new P&N. There's a split rail you have to line, shove the interchange cars over, then get the split rail back. http://binged.it/XeZCPz

[15895]

I love this picture because it helps me get a better visual of what we've been discussing in several threads about "Sexy" retail. We obviously know where the Park, BB&T Stadium and BB&T Stadium hotel is going. We also know there is a good possibility that Streetcar will be rolling up and down Trade Street and Childress Klein will rise above the park next to Catalyst.

The only thing about this picture it cuts off where Gateway project is going to be. Here is a really old slide but still relevant. It's so old it has 3rd ward Park being where the current Knights Stadium is.

https://connect.ncdot.gov/letting/Design%20Build%20Program/Charlotte%20Gateway%20Station/Multimodal%20Station%20Area%20Plan%20Planning%20Process%20Update.pdf

However, I would love to see the NCDOT parcels filled with Lowrise buildings with "sexy" retail at the bottom and apartments/Dorms above. I wouldn't even mind podium style buildings with the entryway to the parking lining the railroad. Sort of like a Birkdale Village with European-esque type of architecture (Gran Via Madrid-ish for example)

If Birkdale Village can have a Bannana Republic, Kirklands, Chico's, Claires Botique, American Eagle, etc. etc. why can't uptown if it's planned right?

That 1,000 room hotel the city lofts around should also be incorporated into Gateway. Gateway will be the mass Transit hub, so convention goers can utilize Amtrak, Greyhound (I honestly don't ever expect anyone going to a convention to use greyhound by the way, ha), Sprinter, Streetcar (God willing), Red Line (God Willing) and CATS buses that way it's not a hotel to host only convention center business but also serve the business community connecting the hotel easily to Southpark, Ballantyne, Mooresville, airport, etc. The hotel would also add people volume to already booming/boomed 3rd and 4th ward (Childress Klein, Trademark, Vue, Catalyst, Avenue, BB&T Hotel, Marriott)

I think Hines should also partner with UNCC and other universitys to build some dorms above the retail besides just apartments. This would also encourage people to use Mass Transit even more by students transiting on Mass Transit between the uptown campus and the main campus in U. City Which my make funding for future city projects a little easier if it benefits the university.

Charlotte, NC, Center City Partners, etc. already have their hands tied in this project. If Charlotte tries to partner with the railroad company to buy the block beside Epicentre, it's only transforming a Block where as Gateway Station would change the entire dynamics of the city stretching down for blocks on top of the financing and contacts that Hines has. Besides, I don't want the city to pay tons of money for a parcel when we have this land to play with. I don't think the city should get involved too much in prime real estate... That will come in due time.

This is just me wishing, hoping, dreaming of something that could easily become reality if planned properly. Everything is in place for it to happen.

[Missmylab4]

I've got to see the Hines plans before I get giddy. However, I'll agree that our best chance at stroll retail is along Trade Street. Is it too much to ask for some basic retail like a Bannana Republic within 5 years??

[15895]

I've got to see the Hines plans before I get giddy. However, I'll agree that our best chance at stroll retail is along Trade Street. Is it too much to ask for some basic retail like a Bannana Republic within 5 years??

We're not going to get the Hines plans until they have workshops with the city of Charlotte, NC DOT, community workshops, etc. We might get conceptual drawings like we have now but it will just be for ideas.

Hines will work with a variety of stakeholders to begin the process of creating a master development plan for the area which will involves the efforts of numerous planners, engineers, architects, contractors, and other developers who will become part of the project as it moves through planning, design and implementation.

The station’s current estimated $200 million project cost could generate more than $1 billion in private investment. The project’s timeframe will be determined as part of the master development plan.

The goal of the project is to become one of Charlotte’s most attractive commercial, entertainment, retail and residential destinations serving as a bridge to reconnect and reenergize some of the city’s most diverse and historically significant communities and resources.

http://www.costar.co...-Station/143217

My point is. Here is the opportunity that the city wants as far as making a retail presence in uptown. If they're serious about it, here is one golden opportunity. in my opinion.

Edited November 17, 2012 by AirNostrumMAD

[uptownliving]

Put on your calendars the Public Workshop on the CRISP project.

 

Tuesday December 11th

5:00pm -7:00pm (drop in anytime)

Char-Meck Govt Center Room 266

 

NCDOT is hosting the meeting and will have conceptual plans for this $130M project to grade seperate the CSX and NS mainlines. They will be taking feedback at the meeting to be incorporated into the final plans for this project which is anticpated to begin construction Summer 2013.

[Missmylab4]

Actual retail, is all I ask for from the project. Bannana Republic, Barnes & noble, even a Claire's or Sunglass Hut. This kind of retail would go along way for the city. Other national retailers rely on the locations of other national retailers in location decisions. Having some national retailers would start the long process of turning uptown into a retail destination. While not the exciting retail everyone clamors for it would start the process of turning uptown into a retail destination. Baby steps everyone, baby steps.

Although as it stands today, I see South End becoming more of a retail destination than uptown. Cheaper land and many more future residents.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Missmylab4

[15895]

I don't see SouthEnd becoming a retail destination before uptown. Those people in SouthEnd want to go to uptown. They probably want to take lynx to uptown and go to a banana republic.

Uptown has a much larger draw than SouthEnd. I see SouthEnd growth as being a huge help to uptown retail.

[New Name]

I agree. Uptown has parks and public plazas, which when you're talking about an urban [shopping] experience are necessary. You know, take a break from your consumerism and get an ice cream and sit in the park....

[southslider]

Split the difference, and build retail along the edge of (and ideally capping) Belk Freeway.  Not only would you have the combined rooftops of Uptown and South End, but you'd also be close to the Convention Center (all its hotels and out-of-town visitors) and the Levine Center of the Arts (weekend-venturing locals).

Edited December 7, 2012 by southslider

[15895]

There is too much risk in building a birkdale village uptown. On top of that land acquisition would be a pain.

Gateway has the perfect, perfect, perfect land to make a stroll district of retail and the private-public venture reduces the risk.

Gateway village is - supposed - to be a premier mixed use TOD development wtc. Etc.

This isn't dreaming or wishful thinking. This could be reality if planned right. If anyone can attend the meetings, scream about retail. Gateway station has the potential to be a huge game changer.

[dubone]

Someone took the risk to build a Birkdale Village uptown, in fact, it was the creator of Birkdale Village.  It is called Metropolitan Midtown and has a grocer, and 4-5 big box retail spots (Target, Best Buy, Marshalls, Staples), boutique clothing stores (Lotus and Silverfly), a popular grocer (TJs), furniture/decor (West Elm), 10 restaurants of various price and cuisine, and a really big vacancy.  

 

I do agree that a train station is a traditional place for retail, especially in Europe and big US cities, and tapping into a large scale master developer will likely have the ability to include some retail space that can draw the national names.   Also, I am not sure what retailers people are hoping for, but I question some of the names like B&N which can't survive in traditional locations, so doubtful to thrive in an area dominated by Millenials and Gen-Xers that buy many things like books digitally or online for delivery.    I already have most every retailer I need uptown, and it is called the UPS man.  

 

If we are dreaming, I would like to see retailers of things you wouldn't buy online, especially big names in clothing (H&M, Banana, Express, Zara), but do not believe that Gateway Station will be the place for those to sprout up.   I would expect to see those latching onto an adjacent development near Midtown.

 

It would be one thing if Gateway Station were the focus of all our city's mass transit and distance rail and bus traffic.  But it is not, and the volumes expected are something, but not enough to drive traffic as much as the arena (which struggles to fill its retail slots) or Tryon in general.   

[ah59396]

Can someone in the know explain to me why the NCDOT rail division website is so woefully out of date?  Do they not have someone who manages it?

 

http://www.bytrain.org/istation/charlottemm/aerial.html

 

They use an aerial shot of the station location that was probably taken in the mid 90's.

 

http://www.bytrain.org/istation/charlottemm/cmmtimeline.html

 

Their timeline for the station construction shows that it will begin in 2010...Oh boy!

 

 

I'm more excited about this project than pretty much any and I understand that the recession has taken it's toll on government production, but holy crap I can't have any faith in these guys to build this thing if they cannot simply update a website, oh I dunno, every year or so.  The last "link" posted is a PDF from March of 2012.  No announcement on The Harris Group...nada.

 

My club college hockey team had a more up to date website than this.

[dubone]

I remember being frustrated by how out of date it was 8 years ago.  Whenever a link to some information takes me there, I immediately back out because I know it will be out of date information.  

 

In part we are spoiled because Charmeck is decent and often has recent information available.

 

It is shocking how hard it is to find information on the HSR funding we got, going to the mainline separation project in 4th Ward and to double track from Charlotte to Greensboro among others.   Granted they posted all the info for the APPLICATION for funds, but why is it so hard to update citizens on the progress of spending those funds.

[thetrick]

I remember being frustrated by how out of date it was 8 years ago.  Whenever a link to some information takes me there, I immediately back out because I know it will be out of date information.  

 

In part we are spoiled because Charmeck is decent and often has recent information available.

 

It is shocking how hard it is to find information on the HSR funding we got, going to the mainline separation project in 4th Ward and to double track from Charlotte to Greensboro among others.   Granted they posted all the info for the APPLICATION for funds, but why is it so hard to update citizens on the progress of spending those funds.

 

I agree, worries me. Money can't just sit forever, someone will use it for something else. I have searched far and wide and nothing. These guys http://www.trainweb.org/capt/ are my only hope, but their website is about 8 months behind, but that is better than most.

 

TH

[dubone]

Well, it does sit.  When we get a federal budget allocation but are not able to use it until other things come through, it is still allocated to the project.  Regardless, progress is being made on the projects, it just is that we are not aware of all the details and documents because no one has put it up on the website.

[carolinagarnet]

We have five years to spend a federal obligation (assuming this money has been obligated already, rather than just allocated). There is still a decent sense of urgency because of how long it takes to actually start some of these projects, but we should be fine for a while on the federal funding.

Edited January 30, 2013 by carolinagarnet

[TotalLamer]

Just a few quick pieces of news (or rumors I suppose).  I work for CSX as a Conductor and was hanging out in the Yardmaster's office for a few hours today... there was a guy there from the Engineering Department too for awhile.  He had this to say:

 

A) Construction on the CSX/NS grade separation at ADM will be starting in 2 months

B) CSX projects a ~50% increase in intermodal traffic in the next 10 years and to facilitate that, the line from Charlotte to Monroe will be double-tracked with signals the whole way.  The trench at ADM will be dug wide enough for a double-track main but only one track will be laid to begin with.

Edited February 3, 2013 by TotalLamer

[cltbwimob]

^^^It seems that might make commuter rail between Charlotte and Monroe more feasible in the future.

[TotalLamer]

^^^It seems that might make commuter rail between Charlotte and Monroe more feasible in the future.

 

Hard to say.  The line from Charlotte to Monroe is already quite busy as-is without an extra 50% increase is intermodal traffic alone.

[TotalLamer]

However, take anything I say with a grain of salt.  The mantra for any news on new industries coming online, new track work, new ANYTHING with the railroad is "Believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see".

 

For example, there's a new industry in the West Industrial Park that we were told should have been online before the end of 2012.  It's still not.  Heck, they haven't even put the crossing back in yet.

[mallguy]

Does CSX have any general interest in running passenger trains on its lines, above what already operate?  Are the NS and CSX lines in Charlotte connected at some point?