Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[TotalLamer]

Does CSX have any general interest in running passenger trains on its lines, above what already operate?  Are the NS and CSX lines in Charlotte connected at some point?

 

CSX and NS connect at Tryon Yard.  The NS sends a job down to Pinoca to bring us their interchange cars and take back our interchange cars.

 

Here:

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=28202&hl=en&ll=35.233496,-80.830952&spn=0.002136,0.004128&safe=off&hnear=Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28202&gl=us&t=h&z=19

 

If you switch from the 45 degree view to the overhead view, you can see in that image how they've been doing a bunch of track work to put Tryon Yard back in service.  I think they want to store wheat cars for ADM there.  For a long time only the mainline and the interchange track to the NS was in service.

Edited February 3, 2013 by TotalLamer

[kermit]

Just a few quick pieces of news (or rumors I suppose).  I work for CSX as a Conductor and was hanging out in the Yardmaster's office for a few hours today... there was a guy there from the Engineering Department too for awhile.  He had this to say:

 

A) Construction on the CSX/NS grade separation at ADM will be starting in 2 months

B) CSX projects a ~50% increase in intermodal traffic in the next 10 years and to facilitate that, the line from Charlotte to Monroe will be double-tracked with signals the whole way.  The trench at ADM will be dug wide enough for a double-track main but only one track will be laid to begin with.

 

Wow! That is big news for a long list of reasons. A capacity increase in Charlotte for CSX will substantially improve our rail accessibility for industrial customers.

 

I am very impressed that CSX is going to spend this money, It is not going to be cheap, most of the bridges that I have seen look to be single track (e.g. Little Sugar Creek, I-77, McAlpine creek).

[TotalLamer]

Wow! That is big news for a long list of reasons. A capacity increase in Charlotte for CSX will substantially improve our rail accessibility for industrial customers.

 

I am very impressed that CSX is going to spend this money, It is not going to be cheap, most of the bridges that I have seen look to be single track (e.g. Little Sugar Creek, I-77, McAlpine creek).

 

Like I said... believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see.  It's possible and I'd love to see it happen... I imagine at some point it definitely WILL happen (I assume you know about all the track work at Pinoca Yard that completed around September of last year) but who knows on when, really.

[kermit]

CSX and NS connect at Tryon Yard.  The NS sends a job down to Pinoca to bring us their interchange cars and take back our interchange cars.

 

Here:

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=28202&hl=en&ll=35.233496,-80.830952&spn=0.002136,0.004128&safe=off&hnear=Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28202&gl=us&t=h&z=19

 

If you switch from the 45 degree view to the overhead view, you can see in that image how they've been doing a bunch of track work to put Tryon Yard back in service.  I think they want to store wheat cars for ADM there.  For a long time only the mainline and the interchange track to the NS was in service.

 

Even more interesting since some of the CRISP materials suggest that Tryon Yard will be relocated (although no details about where it will go are given). See slide 15 of this presentation on CRISP from 2010

 

http://www.bytrain.org/quicklinks/reports/CRISP_MLGS_4thWard_27Sept2010.pdf

Edited February 3, 2013 by kermit

[mallguy]

Thanks for the info!

 

Out of curiosity, TotaLamer, why do privately-run railroads show little interest in operating passenger trains themselves on their own lines?

 

If I were CSX or NS, and some government offered me $x to run passenger trains on a schedule that we'd mutually agree upon, and if the government would assume all liability for the service, why not do it, if $x would cover the costs?  Wouldn't that be better than some government agency running its trains on my tracks? 

[TotalLamer]

Thanks for the info!

 

Out of curiosity, TotaLamer, why do privately-run railroads show little interest in operating passenger trains themselves on their own lines?

 

If I were CSX or NS, and some government offered me $x to run passenger trains on a schedule that we'd mutually agree upon, and if the government would assume all liability for the service, why not do it, if $x would cover the costs?  Wouldn't that be better than some government agency running its trains on my tracks? 

 

No idea.  I'd imagine because...

 

A) Cost of rolling stock for passenger service

B) Cost to improve track for passenger service speeds

C) Lack of a market

D) Not as profitable as freight service

[kermit]

TL, do you have a feel for the quality of the connection on CSX between Charleston and Monroe? It looks like there are two possible routes which joing the Wilmington line in either Pembroke or Hamlet. The Pembroke connection to the west does not look so good.

 

A broad view of the CSX route system (combined with fundamental problems with increasing traffic in Wilmington) make it seem like the only way that all this new intermodal traffic in Charlotte will be generated would be better connections between CLT and Charleston and possibly Savannah. Is it possible that  CSX is out of room to expand its terminal in Atlanta?

 

If this traffic increase really happens then NS's new terminal strategy will really pay off.

 

EDIT: If Hulsy Yard is still the only CSX intermodal facility in Atlanta then they really are out of space there.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=30602&hl=en&ll=33.753461,-84.36219&spn=0.010669,0.019848&sll=35.203153,-80.839829&sspn=0.671036,1.270294&t=h&hnear=Athens,+Georgia+30602&z=16

Edited February 3, 2013 by kermit

[TotalLamer]

TL, do you have a feel for the quality of the connection on CSX between Charleston and Monroe? It looks like there are two possible routes which joing the Wilmington line in either Pembroke or Hamlet. The Pembroke connection to the west does not look so good.

 

A broad view of the CSX route system (combined with fundamental problems with increasing traffic in Wilmington) make it seem like the only way that all this new intermodal traffic in Charlotte will be generated would be better connections between CLT and Charleston and possibly Savannah. Is it possible that  CSX is out of room to expand its terminal in Atlanta?

 

If this traffic increase really happens then NS's new terminal strategy will really pay off.

 

EDIT: If Hulsy Yard is still the only CSX intermodal facility in Atlanta then they really are out of space there.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=30602&hl=en&ll=33.753461,-84.36219&spn=0.010669,0.019848&sll=35.203153,-80.839829&sspn=0.671036,1.270294&t=h&hnear=Athens,+Georgia+30602&z=16

 

No idea.  I'm only qualified on the Charlotte subdivision and beyond that, I'm very new... I don't have high enough seniority to work the road.  Mostly I either sit on the Switchmen's Board or work scheduled industry jobs in Chemway, West Industrial Park, etc.

 

As for Wilmington, last I heard CSX built a huge new yard there to accommodate business that didn't materialize, so... I imagine there's plenty of spare capacity there.

[kermit]

No idea.  I'm only qualified on the Charlotte subdivision and beyond that, I'm very new... I don't have high enough seniority to work the road.  Mostly I either sit on the Switchmen's Board or work scheduled industry jobs in Chemway, West Industrial Park, etc.

 

As for Wilmington, last I heard CSX built a huge new yard there to accommodate business that didn't materialize, so... I imagine there's plenty of spare capacity there.

 

Gotcha. Thanks for sharing what you have!

 

Re Wilmington: I was trying to reference water-side capacity (but I wasn't clear about that). Wilmington is a lousy container port due to its shallow and long approach up the Cape Fear combined with the length of hte shoals. When planning for the new deepwater container port near Southport was stopped last year, the state esentially gave up on ever increasing seaside container traffic. The other issue with Wilmington is that it is only served by CSX (unlike just about every other east coast port) -- no shiping line likes to be the victim of a captive market.

[TotalLamer]

Gotcha. Thanks for sharing what you have!

 

Re Wilmington: I was trying to reference water-side capacity (but I wasn't clear about that). Wilmington is a lousy container port due to its shallow and long approach up the Cape Fear combined with the length of hte shoals. When planning for the new deepwater container port near Southport was stopped last year, the state esentially gave up on ever increasing seaside container traffic. The other issue with Wilmington is that it is only served by CSX (unlike just about every other east coast port) -- no shiping line likes to be the victim of a captive market.

 

Hmm... I wouldn't be surprised if Southport was the reason CSX built the expanded yard in Wilmington.

[TotalLamer]

On another note, there's nothing saying the container traffic has to come in from ports.  Could be from city to city.  Besides that, there's also a good amount of traffic coming into Charlotte from Miami. 

 

See: "Threads Express"

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/freightnews/article.asp?id=16792

 

http://www.csxi.com/?fuseaction=customers.news-detail&i=49675

Edited February 4, 2013 by TotalLamer

[TotalLamer]

Hmmm, now that I look at the CSX Intermodal map, it's actually wrong.  It shows Charlotte -> Atlanta, which is I assume the pig train that goes to Greenwood, but it doesn't have Florence on there at all... and the Charlotte to Florence pig is the one that Charlotte crews take.

 

http://www.csxi.com/share/csxicustomer/main/docs/Core_2008_08-REF24487.PDF

[kermit]

On another note, there's nothing saying the container traffic has to come in from ports.  Could be from city to city.  Besides that, there's also a good amount of traffic coming into Charlotte from Miami. 

 

See: "Threads Express"

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/freightnews/article.asp?id=16792

 

http://www.csxi.com/?fuseaction=customers.news-detail&i=49675

 

ahh, it all makes perfect sense now. Panama Canal widening plus, the emphasis on fast service to CLT from every major Southern port combined with (what appears to be) very limited intermodal capacity for CSX in Atlanta really does translate into heavy increases in intermodal traffic in Charlotte. The presence of two major intermodal hubs here is really going to kickstart manufacturing in the region.

 

RE Commuter Rail: I suspect that commuter rail is not on CSX's radar. If it was they certainly would have approached CATS / the state for passenger rail funds to pay for the double tracking. Perhaps the NCDOT rail division still has the wherewithall to get CSX to align its new track such that station turnouts can be accomdated in the future.

 

While there is a conneciton between CSX and NCRR / NS near Tryon street it does not allow for commuter trains from Monroe to get to Gateway station (they would need to reverse nearly a mile through the NS yards to the current Amtrak station and then head towards Gateway). From what I have seen of the grade seperation, building a new connection to Gateway from the CSX is highly unlikely. If commuter rail ever staarted on the route I suspect that the Charlotte terminal would need to be built behind the  Alpha Mill at the BLE. If you really get carried away I suspose you could build new tracks from the CSX along the BLE row, under 277 and build a terminal in the Levine town (beside the Hal Marshal annex). This could allow for commuters to walk to the north half of town or get the blue line at 9th street.

Edited February 4, 2013 by kermit

[ajfunder]

Drove over the CSX line today and judging by the maintence equipment and recent crossing closings, CSX is really investing in the existing track. The freshly laid welded rail was also a giveaway and hopefully a positive indication of things to come.

Alex

[orulz]

From what I have seen of the grade seperation, building a new connection to Gateway from the CSX is highly unlikely..

Although the public hearing map shows no connection, it would not be impossible. The connection even exists today, in a manner of speaking; the ADM siding is connected on one end to CSX and the other end to NS. It does not seem like it would be especially difficult to install a new connection from the CSX connection to ADM.

 

FWIW this is probably the biggest reason ADM located where it is in the first place, and also why it does not want to move: this location is one of if not the only place in North Carolina that is served directly by both a CSX and a Norfolk Southern main line, not to mention the excellent highway access.

[TotalLamer]

Drove over the CSX line today and judging by the maintence equipment and recent crossing closings, CSX is really investing in the existing track. The freshly laid welded rail was also a giveaway and hopefully a positive indication of things to come.

Alex

 

The freshly laid rail is probably in preparation for this summer's Jamboree, which will be from Charlotte to Monroe.  They did Charlotte to Bostic last year.

[tozmervo]

St Paul's renovated Union Depot. You know, just FWIW.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stef-presslein/8376886688/in/photostream/

[Otto]

TL, do you have a feel for the quality of the connection on CSX between Charleston and Monroe? It looks like there are two possible routes which joing the Wilmington line in either Pembroke or Hamlet. The Pembroke connection to the west does not look so good.

 

A broad view of the CSX route system (combined with fundamental problems with increasing traffic in Wilmington) make it seem like the only way that all this new intermodal traffic in Charlotte will be generated would be better connections between CLT and Charleston and possibly Savannah. Is it possible that  CSX is out of room to expand its terminal in Atlanta?

 

If this traffic increase really happens then NS's new terminal strategy will really pay off.

 

EDIT: If Hulsy Yard is still the only CSX intermodal facility in Atlanta then they really are out of space there.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=30602&hl=en&ll=33.753461,-84.36219&spn=0.010669,0.019848&sll=35.203153,-80.839829&sspn=0.671036,1.270294&t=h&hnear=Athens,+Georgia+30602&z=16

CSXT has another intermodal facility southwest of Atlanta adjacent to I-85...so overall, the ATL is served by four intermodal facilities.  It would be great to see more intermodal traffic (on trains) from Charleston and Savannah.

[thetrick]

I think it's safe to say that passenger rail is not on any freight railroads radar except as a warning. The freight railroads avoid it like the plague and fight it everywhere. It's not a money maker, and even with subsidies it would have a very thin margin. The only exception I know to this is FEC in Florida, but I will believe it when I see the trains rolling. 

 

But I'm sure CSX would take some state money to upgrade their routes, as long as they don't have to guarantee any level of service afterwards. Ever ride Amtrak between Rocky Mount and Richmond VA, that is a busy CSX route, and it is terrible! 

 

I say all this with much love for the freight RRs they are protecting their core business.

 

TH

[TotalLamer]

Another quick note.  While I was at work tonight, we were shooting the crap for awhile.  Yardmaster on duty said he doubted the double-track rumor, but he said he was pretty sure they will be putting in a "super siding" at Stouts soon.  I think he said it's supposed to be ~12,000 feet with a double crossover in the middle.

[Niner National]

Another quick note.  While I was at work tonight, we were shooting the crap for awhile.  Yardmaster on duty said he doubted the double-track rumor, but he said he was pretty sure they will be putting in a "super siding" at Stouts soon.  I think he said it's supposed to be ~12,000 feet with a double crossover in the middle.

I'm not familiar with railroad terminology, what is super siding?

[ajfunder]

I believe it is just as it sounds, just a long passing siding (section of double track to allow trains to pass). In this case, the siding would be around two miles. Should greatly add capacity to the line.

Alex

[TotalLamer]

I believe it is just as it sounds, just a long passing siding (section of double track to allow trains to pass). In this case, the siding would be around two miles. Should greatly add capacity to the line.

Alex

 

Pretty much this.  It's not a "real" term he was just basically saying "A really big siding".  In this case, 12,000 feet would be long enough to accommodate 2 trains at a time.

[michaelef]

Any more news on Gateway station?

[Dale]

Sorry if I missed it, but should we expect to see some renderings later this year ?