Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[southslider]

Orlando involved corporate kickbacks for CSX.

[tozmervo]

Florida also turned down HSR money that NCRR is benefiting greatly from. Win some/loose some.

[Dale]

The HSR would almost certainly have been a boondoggle. And the state contributed lots of money to the commuter rail.

[kermit]

And the state contributed lots of money to the commuter rail.

 

They did, but most of it wound up in a CSX's bank account in Jacksonville. It is not a coincidence that CSX was a 'generous donor' to John Mica.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/us/politics/28mica.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

Mr. Mica, in an interview, said he realized that the package would help the freight company, which is based in Jacksonville. The company’s executives, including Michael J. Ward, its chairman, have donated nearly $60,000 personally or through the company to Mr. Mica and his political causes in the last decade. But both Mr. Mica and a CSX spokesman disputed any suggestion that the package was a sweetheart deal for the company.

Edited March 25, 2013 by kermit

[Dale]

They did, but most of it wound up in a CSX's bank account in Jacksonville. It is not a coincidence that CSX was a 'generous donor' to John Mica.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/us/politics/28mica.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

What does it matter where the money went ? Your question was whether a right-leaning government would pony up. I'm showing you where a right-leaning state already did. It is a myth that right-leaning governments don't spend money hand-over-fist.

[kermit]

^ It matters because many (including myself) doubt that a tea party led government would spend a dime on passenger rail transportation in the absence of some kind of corporate welfare scheme.

 

To bring us back to topic, the original question (which I did not explicitly phrase) was: are there any political reasons why NCDOT should spend $200 million on Gateway station? Can Hines leverage enough development potential around the station to encourage folks like Bob Rucho to come up with the subsidy?

Edited March 25, 2013 by kermit

[Dale]

^ It matters because many (including myself) doubt that a tea party led government would spend a dime on passenger rail transportation in the absence of some kind of corporate welfare scheme.

 

To bring us back to topic, the original question (which I did not explicitly phrase) was: are there any political reasons why NCDOT should spend $200 million on Gateway station? Can Hines leverage enough development potential around the station to encourage folks like Bob Russo to some up with the subsidy?

kermit, I don't mean to argue, but the Florida government which spent hundreds of millions, to fund a rail project, was Tea Party to the core, possibly even more so than NC.

[kermit]

^ the point I was attempting to make was that the tea partiers in Florida were not investing in a commuter line, they were sending $400+ million of state funds to some of their campaign contributors. I don't believe that they would not have even sniffed at Sunrail if it were not for the patronage to CSX.

 

[sorry, I did not intend to make this political or argumentative. I do genuinely appreciate your views on Sunrail.]

Edited March 25, 2013 by kermit

[carolinagarnet]

My dad was pretty instrumental in getting commuter rail passed in Orlando, so I might have some insight. As much as the line was probably a kickback scheme (everything in Florida seems to be), the discussion was really framed around limitations to future highway expansion. Traffic in Orlando on both I-4 and the East-West Expressway is so bad that politicians in Tallahassee could not ignore it any longer. Getting back to Charlotte, the Light Rail Extension is viewed as being proactive, unlike all transit projects in Florida at the moment, so the sense of urgency might not be there. Of course at this point state funding seems mandatory. Pulling support for the line would be political suicide, even for very conservative Republicans. It's too easy to cite all of the jobs (albeit temporary construction jobs) that would be lost without the funding to which the state already committed (even though it didn't really)..

[TotalLamer]

More news from Pinoca.

 

Word around the watercooler (or popcorn machine, in this case) is that they should be cutting out the Southern crossing sometime next month.  It will take another ~3 months to put in the temporary tracks around the site, which I've heard are going to be basically built "through the road"?  I can only imagine they must mean NC Music Factory Blvd... and then they'd cross over the Southern someplace just north of the trench site and re-connect to the CSX main farther down.

 

After the Southern crossing is cut but before the temporary tracks are in place, all traffic that would normally be coming to Charlotte from Hamlet (or Greenwood in the case of one of the pig trains) will instead have to go Spartenburg -> Bostic -> Charlotte.

[kermit]

After the Southern crossing is cut but before the temporary tracks are in place, all traffic that would normally be coming to Charlotte from Hamlet (or Greenwood in the case of one of the pig trains) will instead have to go Spartenburg -> Bostic -> Charlotte.

 

I was wondering how they were going to pull that off, thanks for the update! Is it really going to take four years of work to get the trench dug??? (I had sworn that the project had a 2017 completion date).

 

Its also nice to know that they still call it the "Southern" Crossing. NS just doesn't have the same ring.

[TotalLamer]

I was wondering how they were going to pull that off, thanks for the update! Is it really going to take four years of work to get the trench dug??? (I had sworn that the project had a 2017 completion date).

 

Its also nice to know that they still call it the "Southern" Crossing. NS just doesn't have the same ring.

 

Yeah no one up here calls it the NS.  All you hear is "Hey is the Southern coming to get their cars today?" or "Yeah we're held up at the Southern."

[kermit]

So after a few amtrak trips our decrepit train station recently I am really not convinced we can wait for Gateway station. Parking is _way_ over capacity (I counted more than 20 cars parked on the grassy edges of the lots and entry ways. The taxi line is too small (the line extended out to Tryon on Saturday when the Carolinian arrived) and the internal infrastructure (and management)  is melting down (the door from the tunnel to the waiting area was locked the last _two_ times I deboarded -- this forces an entire train load of passengers to stand and wait inside the tunnel (with luggage) for a staff member to let them go home). 

 

Other than parking, none of these issues are a deal breaker, but if ridership continues to climb at the present rate (the Piedmont has consistently been one of Amtrak's most rapidly growing services) our station is going to literally bust at the seams. How can we get tony tata to board a train in Charlotte so he can see the strained infrastructure first hand?

Edited April 15, 2013 by kermit

[RVA2CLT]

^ Personally I think Gateway should be fast-tracked before the any of the other 3.3 billion rail-oriented transit projects.

The #s prove the ridership is already their and growing and the need is real. Amtrak ridership hits record levels in fiscal 2013

Am I alone in thinking that it's most important to get a central hub for rail transit up & operational first so there is a real and tangible nexus for all future local & regional rail projects?
With the way 3rd Ward is going to be by 2015, dirt needs to be moving on this project as of last month along with an approved extension of the Street car up to the station.

It It just feels like this won't even begin to move until:

(1) The NS Inter-modal Yard at the airport is complete and operation
but mainly (2) The CRISP grade separation of CSX/NS at ADM Milling is complete and operational, especially with this bullet point of CRISP:

The Amtrak New York City to New Orleans Crescent is currently the only passenger train that passes through the project area.
Upon the completion of the Charlotte Gateway Station in Uptown Charlotte, six additional passenger trains will pass through the busy crossing, adding to the potential delays to freight and passenger train traffic. NCDOT is also proposing to add two additional Raleigh – Charlotte round trips in the near future. The project will eliminate potential delays to passenger train service due to freight trains passing through the crossing.

So it just seems that until these 2 projects are completed, increased passenger train service to Charlotte will not proceed, thus, not warranting the construction of Gateway Station solely for the NC Regional trains & hopes of the Red Line coming to fruition.

hurry up and wait..
 

 

[orulz]

I mentioned this in the Streetcar thread, but I think Gateway should be Charlotte's top priority for a TIGER application, because of the deficiencies Kermit mentions above, and because of the precedent that was set when USDOT gave $21 million to Raleigh for its train station last year. The Obama administration and USDOT are clearly big supporters of passenger rail in NC, and the poor station in Charlotte is the real "missing link" on the line, so they might be relatively eager to fund such a request. The 2009 stimulus application suggested a cost of $96 million for the track work plus the intercity rail component of the station. Raleigh's TIGER grant covered about 1/3 of the total cost, so a similar grant to Charlotte would therefore be $32 million - which would certainly be enough to get the ball rolling in a major way.

[TotalLamer]

Latest rumor I've heard around the yard office is that they've delayed the CSX/NS grade separation again for another couple of years.  Once again, take this with a grain of salt though.

[ajfunder]

The project has to be done by 2017, or am I mistaken. NCDOT better not let this funding slip away.

Alex

[15895]

I'm an aviation nerd and it's frustrating to me when people dont understand the impact of say being a hub airport, soooo, to all the rail needs out there. Tell me;

How significant is this new intermodal yard going to be?

[ajfunder]

Very, very important. It will be the center of freight transfers, imports, and exports for the region. It will serve as a major transfer point on Norfolk Southerns Crescent corridor and it will be one of the largest inland facilities on the corridor. It has potential to become one of Charlotte's most vital assets as Intermodal traffic continues to grow. The ability to transfer freight in these "inland ports" will give Charlotte a big edge in the region and it could lead to the city becoming an important shipping and logistics hub.

Alex

[kermit]

^ IMO the rail hub has no direct link to the airport. It will however allow Charlotte to serve as a legitimate inland hub for ports in Charleston and Savannah which are very likely to see increased intermodal volumes as a result of Panama Canal widening. Lower shipping costs to Charleston and Savannah should make the 200 miles surrounding Charlotte much more attractive to export-oriented manufacturers.

Edited May 7, 2013 by kermit

[TotalLamer]

Important to point out that CSX expanded its intermodal facility at Pinoca Yard last year, however the result of that pales in comparison to the huge yard that NS is building out at the airport.

 

Just to put it in perspective... last week we had an 8300' long intermodal come in from Miami.  It took 5 tracks to fully yard it.  I imagine the new NS facility will be able to fit that same train in one or maybe two tracks.

 

Actually, the work at Pinoca Yard last year didn't really "expand" the intermodal facility.  It did streamline things a bit by connecting tracks 1, 2 and 3 back to the mainline on the south end instead of having them just dead end, however as a result the intermodal yard did actually lose just a little bit of capacity.  They also added all the signals and whatnot at that same time.  Also, with how they shifted the track and the new container-lifting trucks with the extendable arm, they can now reach not just the closest track to the ramp, but the closest two.  So instead of only being able to work tracks 3 and 4, they can now work tracks 2, 3, 4 and 10.

Edited May 7, 2013 by TotalLamer

[15895]

^ IMO the rail hub has no direct link to the airport. It will however allow Charlotte to serve as a legitimate inland hub for ports in Charleston and Savannah which are very likely to see increased intermodal volumes as a result of Panama Canal widening. Lower shipping costs to Charleston and Savannah should make the 200 miles surrounding Charlotte much more attractive to export-oriented manufacturers.

Wouldn't it have a link to the airport say UPS made an aircraft hub here? Would the intermodal yard make it make it more likely cargo aircraft operations get expanded?

[ajfunder]

UPS has started contracting quite a bit with the railroads, it could be a great opportunity for such a set-up.

Alex

[kermit]

Wouldn't it have a link to the airport say UPS made an aircraft hub here? Would the intermodal yard make it make it more likely cargo aircraft operations get expanded?

 

The NS intermodal hub does have the potential to marginally increase airfreight from CLT. However, it is unlikely that any freight will go directly from the intermodal terminal to a waiting air freighter. Essentially all of the freight that comes off the intermodal trains is going to go to a local warehouse (somewhere in West Charlotte) and sit in inventory before being shipped out of town via air or truck.

 

While I am not the guy who makes the decisions I would be very surprised if this airfreight traffic reaches hub volume. Since this freight already spent two-plus weeks at sea there is no downside to keeping the container on the rails to deliver it existing hubs in Memphis (Fedex) or Louisville (UPS) if that kind of airfreight volume is necessary.

 

I suspect that the intermodal terminal's greatest potential is to stimulate exports from Charlotte area manufacturers via the ports of Charleston and Savannah. The NS terminal may also enable a new local car plant.  In addition I think we can look forward to _lots_ more German executives flying in to CLT in order to monitor their new factories here.

Edited May 7, 2013 by kermit

[cltbwimob]

^^^I do think that the yard will increase CLTs ability to attract cargo flights, although I a don't think a large portion of those Flights will come from the integrated carriers (UPS and FedEx). However, more specialized carriers such as Kalitta Air, Atlas/Polar Air, Cargolux, etc Could increase operations at the airport. Huntsville, Alabama with its intermodal rail yard which is co-located with its airport may be an example to follow in this case.

Interestingly enough UPS did seek to put it Southeastern regional cargo hub in Charlotte. In the 90s when they were scouting for a new location Charlotte was the initial choice, however the city offered no tax breaks. The hub was supposed to replace its truck hub in North Charlotte and include the air hub as part of the new truck hub. Of course UPS ended up choosing Columbia instead of Charlotte due to a large incentives package offered to the company.

Edited May 7, 2013 by cltbwimob