Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[Guest]

^ It was Hines (I probably got the name wrong, but it starts with an H). There has been discussions that they drooped out of the project due to uncertain track layouts which changed the amount of developable land. Other stories on the project said Haines was still involved -- its very unclear.

I thought they just won the development rights, I guess you are right, it was Hines. I wonder what exactly they showed that was so damn great that they beat out Little, who I think would have already seen this station through somehow by now. Usually plans like that would have gone public by now.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Guest

[tozmervo]

Little was the architect working with Hines. They were also the architect with a competing developer. 

[Synopsis101]

Wait is this the proposed station?

 

 

 

Edit: Nevermind

Edited April 5, 2015 by Synopsis101

[Guest]

Wait is this the proposed station?

No :-( this one lost. Luckily the architect for the winning bid was the same as the losing bid.

[Synopsis101]

No :-( this one lost. Luckily the architect for the winning bid was the same as the losing bid.

It's so beautiful. Would have transformed Charlotte.

[dubone]

Also, it is beautiful as a rendering, but in real life, I doubt it.  The top looks so thin, they might as well just put up a wedding tent over the block.

 

The real benefit would be if they add layers and floors to squeeze in density of uses, not a single flowing roof over the ground.  

 

I still believe it is a faulty site for the train station given the lack of scalability of the train lines.  But if it does go here, I hope they favor something with more depth.

 

 

It is pretty at first glance, but force yourself to peel away the graphical embellishments like the sci fi back grounds and perfect sunset lighting and try to think of it like it would really be with some ass homeless dude pissing on the side of it.  

 

This proposal is just the CTC bus terminal with glass around it and a less 90s color choice. 

[dcharlotte]

I' not sure scale of the train lines is necessarily important. Charlotte would be a stop along the journey, not necessarily a place where trains come and linger like Union Station or Penn Station. As far as commuter rail, if Charlotte were to start investing in this, trains could easily pull into the station and pull through to a switch yard further north or south. I would much rather have a station with 4-6 platforms than something that cuts off the urban fabric like Union Station in DC.

[Charlotte Guanxi]

I' not sure scale of the train lines is necessarily important. Charlotte would be a stop along the journey, not necessarily a place where trains come and linger like Union Station or Penn Station. As far as commuter rail, if Charlotte were to start investing in this, trains could easily pull into the station and pull through to a switch yard further north or south. I would much rather have a station with 4-6 platforms than something that cuts off the urban fabric like Union Station in DC.

 

 

I've ridden the Shinkansen train in Japan from Tokyo to Osaka many times in the past, it's quite possibly the best high speed rail in the world.  I've also lived in China for a few years and the Shanghai to Beijing fast train comes a close second.  When I rode these trains, I was just awe of the sophisticated technologies and construction magnitude that goes into it.  I spent my formative years in Charlotte, then moved to Asia the last 5 years.. you can guess how shocked I was after growing up in Charlotte and then going to small Asian villages with train stations that makes Charlotte's Amtrak station look like a hobo. I think Charlotte's improved in transportation a lot, but not enough.  The US has no such rail line that comes close to these trains, it'll probably be another decade or 2 before the US actually has a full functioning rail line like that on the West Coast (LA to San Fran) or East Cost New York and DC or  (extended from DC to Atlanta).  I'll probably have grandkids by then.. so, it won't ever really be for my generation...but what the US still has are regular passenger trains that hit most major cities.  If Charlotte happens to be along the line, Charlotte should definitely invest in more transportation and catch up with the rest of the world.  It's a no brainer that the station should be in an area that is more accessible for newcomers to experience the city.  Charlotte has literally one of the most ugliest train station's in the world on North Tryon street.  No joke, how ugly it looks.  If they decide to build a new train station, they should totally demolish the old train station...or make it into a train maintenance yard.  Even the train station in Ipoh, Malaysia beats the crap out of Charlotte's Amtrak spot... I mean Charlotte's Amtrak is dust compared to the station in Ipoh.. and who in the world has heard of Ipoh?   Even Durham's station in NC (smaller than Charlotte) is more pleasing to the eye.  Relocating it to Gateway will help Charlotte's image and give a better impression for visitors as people pass through the city.  Why not stop in Charlotte and walk around?  First thing one'll see is the ballpark, Romare park and restaurants/retail around it...  When you step out of the Amtrak on N. Tryon, all you see is a run down decrepit area with hobos approaching arriving passengers, and the only building that looks ok is the WSOC 9 news building, but there's fences around to keep the hobos away.  Gateways has hobos too in the area, but not to the extent of the area around N. Tryon.  It makes Gateways look tame in hobobility compared to N. Tryon.  When I rode the Shinkansen trains from Tokyo to Osaka, I used to stop by Kyoto, which has a lot of qualities similar to Charlotte (clean, similar climate, beautiful, and a midsize Japanese city, much like Charlotte is in the US).   I assume it would be the same if a fast rail line like that ever gets built through Charlotte in the future.  Passengers will want to check out Charlotte, so will foreign tourists taking the train.  A full New York to ATL or Miami line would be a popular tourist line in the US.  To not build a station that is inviting or architecturally and aesthetically pleasing in Gateway, would be seriously a travesty for the city of Charlotte.   This is coming from my own perspective and experiences as an Asian-American from Charlotte who's lived here for 20 years.  

Edited April 6, 2015 by Charlotte Guanxi

[15895]

Too bad Foxxy couldn't have ethically persuaded the railroad companies to make the red line reality

Edited April 9, 2015 by AirNostrumMAD

[ChessieCat]

I don't know where else to post this, but has anyone noticed the new rail that has been unfurled in each direction where NS crosses Summit Ave?:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=W+Summit+Ave+%26+clarkson&hl=en&ll=35.222161,-80.863068&spn=0.001965,0.004128&sll=35.221055,-80.862143&sspn=0.007862,0.016512&dirflg=r&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=def&hnear=S+Clarkson+St+%26+W+Summit+Ave,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=35.222161,-80.863068&panoid=qMZcJHe10HTUTTA8kySqOg&cbp=12,83.43,,0,12.63

 

It's interesting because it's only one rail in each direction, not two... I know NCDOT wants to build a locomotive works near this location.

[kermit]

^ I wouldn't read too much into that. The new rail for the double tracking over at Junker (Old Concord area) was delivered a couple weeks ago. I would bet that NS piggybacked onto that order / delivery to replace some rail South of town.

Construction of the passenger rail service center should begin this year, but there will be a large amount of site work before rail will appear for that.

[ajfunder]

For a project that really needs to happen, the wording in this article makes it seem like a relocated Amtrak station in Charlotte is low on the NCDOT priority list. The wording "some level of interest" doesn't make it seem like NCDOT is really even focused on this project.

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/morning-edition/2015/05/raleigh-to-charlotte-rail-improvements-are-on.html

[DEnd]

So dumb question,  There is an abandoned ROW through the ADM mill, why can't that be used to get passenger trains over the csx tracks?

[kermit]

^ Those tracks also cross over the CSX. The original plan plan for the Red Line involved these tracks until ADM and NCDOT decided they could not be bothered to spend the fully obligated  federal government money (about $250 million) to bury the CSX under these tracks and the NS main. The full story never came out but it sounded like ADM was completely unwilling to cooperate with NCDOT with temporary construction easements. 

 

These tracks are not super useful for NC Intercity service since trains would have to run up Atando junction in a backing move (slow) to get there. Seperating this track from the CSX is totally critical for the Red Line.

Edited May 20, 2015 by kermit

[southslider]

It's also too physically constrained for commuter rail to go under Brookshire and over CSX without the latter lowered.

[seth0423]

That isn't the only hold up on the red line though. The project is pretty much dead until CATS can either a. find the money to build a completely separated track in the NS ROW, or b NS can get something worked out with NCRR to keep up their lease of full trackage rights on the line. NS is scared that they won't be able to renew that lease, therefore making the hardly used O-Line their new main.

[ChessieCat]

^And that is before taking into account the new trackage, platforms, and wider bridges that'll have to be built over 4th, Trade, 5th, and 6th Streets to accomodate passenger traffic from not just the Red Line but Amtrak's Piedmont/Carolinian/Crescent trains that will stop at Gateway but cannot disrupt NS's mainline freight ops.  The station is the easy part, the ROWs and trackage are not.  Where the $$$ comes from is anyone's guess.

[ChessieCat]

I went walking down the sidewalk on NC Music Factory Blvd and noticed that the O-line is sawed off and buried just a few feet away from the sidewalk.  You can see it in Street View (classic):

https://www.google.com/maps?q=North+Carolina+Music+Factory+Boulevard,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.237849,-80.841738&spn=0.000695,0.001032&sll=35.23892,-80.84568&sspn=0.005558,0.008256&t=h&hnear=N+Carolina+Music+Factory+Blvd,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&z=21&layer=c&cbll=35.237849,-80.841738&panoid=YY_Q7j_nUZK5zzXJzWi7iA&cbp=12,62.48,,0,19.65

 

If you look South from that vantage point, you'll see that there is a very narrow corridor between the ADM plant and the adjoining bldg at 705 Seabord Street:

https://www.google.com/maps?q=705+Seaboard+Street,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.23778,-80.841723&spn=0.000695,0.001032&sll=35.237843,-80.841967&layer=c&cbp=13,232.56,,0,18.73&cbll=35.237766,-80.841671&hnear=705+N+Carolina+Music+Factory+Blvd,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&t=h&z=21&panoid=UA8pTowEgD3ejY9Q0Bch9w

 

IMHO, the sheer cost of engineering this ROW for the Red Line plus the CSX grade separation, triple-trackage, bridges and platforms to the proposed Gateway station would cost much more than the $250 Million range quoted by NCDOT.

 

On a related note, the 16th Street crossing has re-opened.  2 tracks have been maintained for the NS interconnection to CSX along the old R-Line:

https://www.google.com/maps?q=E+16th+St,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.235503,-80.827041&spn=0.002779,0.004128&sll=35.235359,-80.82688&sspn=0.002792,0.004128&oq=e+16th+&t=h&hnear=E+16th+St,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina&z=19

 

There is PLENTY of land in this area now that the container terminal has been abandoned in the Southeast corner of NS's Charlotte Yard.

 

As mentioned many times before in this forum, all the major rail lines plus the BLE intersect here.  Relocating the Amschack to this side of the tracks and building Dub1's station is the lowest hanging fruit!  Why are the powers that be still wasting their time with Gateway?!

Edited May 22, 2015 by ChessieCat

[15895]

I went walking down the sidewalk on NC Music Factory Blvd and noticed that the O-line is sawed off and buried just a few feet away from the sidewalk. You can see it in Street View (classic):

https://www.google.com/maps?q=North+Carolina+Music+Factory+Boulevard,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.237849,-80.841738&spn=0.000695,0.001032&sll=35.23892,-80.84568&sspn=0.005558,0.008256&t=h&hnear=N+Carolina+Music+Factory+Blvd,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&z=21&layer=c&cbll=35.237849,-80.841738&panoid=YY_Q7j_nUZK5zzXJzWi7iA&cbp=12,62.48,,0,19.65

If you look South from that vantage point, you'll see that there is a very narrow corridor between the ADM plant and the adjoining bldg at 705 Seabord Street:

https://www.google.com/maps?q=705+Seaboard+Street,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.23778,-80.841723&spn=0.000695,0.001032&sll=35.237843,-80.841967&layer=c&cbp=13,232.56,,0,18.73&cbll=35.237766,-80.841671&hnear=705+N+Carolina+Music+Factory+Blvd,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&t=h&z=21&panoid=UA8pTowEgD3ejY9Q0Bch9w

IMHO, the sheer cost of engineering this ROW for the Red Line plus the CSX grade separation, triple-trackage, bridges and platforms to the proposed Gateway station would cost much more than the $250 Million range quoted by NCDOT.

On a related note, the 16th Street crossing at the BLE/NS R-Line interconnection to CSX has been re-opened. There is PLENTY of land in this area now that the container terminal has been abandoned in the Southeast corner of NS's Charlotte Yard:

https://www.google.com/maps?q=705+Seaboard+Street,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.2352,-80.826813&spn=0.002792,0.004128&sll=35.237843,-80.841967&hnear=705+N+Carolina+Music+Factory+Blvd,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&t=h&z=19

As mentioned many times before in this forum, all the major rail lines plus the BLE intersect here. Relocating the Amschack to this side of the tracks and building Dub1's station is the lowest hanging fruit! Why are the powers that be still wasting their time with Gateway?!

Annoying ignorant question alert:

Is it possible if they did decide to relocate Gateway to the BLE, they could build a temporary station for the red line until the new gateway would be complete?

I hope with this I77 toll turmoil, there will be an appetite at least for looking back into the red line for alternative solutions.

[Spartan]

Anything is possible, but it's not likely they would do that. Train stations are pretty expensive, so it would make more sense to build a new one once. I expect the Gateway site will move forward in some form or another.

[ChessieCat]

Annoying ignorant question alert:

Is it possible if they did decide to relocate Gateway to the BLE, they could build a temporary station for the red line until the new gateway would be complete?

I hope with this I77 toll turmoil, there will be an appetite at least for looking back into the red line for alternative solutions.

 

It is easily possible to build a temporary Amshack on the other side of the tracks.  All rail lines converge at the southeast corner of NS Charlotte Yard, so the Red Line and Amtrak trains could easily operate from there. But that's the easy part-- the hard part is that if the Red Line is to be built, NS wants dual-trackage along the O-line corridor (it's single at the moment) from Davidson to Charlotte, and that will cost hundreds of millions of dollars.  

Edited May 22, 2015 by ChessieCat

[DEnd]

I went walking down the sidewalk on NC Music Factory Blvd and noticed that the O-line is sawed off and buried just a few feet away from the sidewalk. You can see it in Street View (classic):

https://www.google.com/maps?q=North+Carolina+Music+Factory+Boulevard,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.237849,-80.841738&spn=0.000695,0.001032&sll=35.23892,-80.84568&sspn=0.005558,0.008256&t=h&hnear=N+Carolina+Music+Factory+Blvd,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&z=21&layer=c&cbll=35.237849,-80.841738&panoid=YY_Q7j_nUZK5zzXJzWi7iA&cbp=12,62.48,,0,19.65

If you look South from that vantage point, you'll see that there is a very narrow corridor between the ADM plant and the adjoining bldg at 705 Seabord Street:

https://www.google.com/maps?q=705+Seaboard+Street,+Charlotte,+NC&hl=en&ll=35.23778,-80.841723&spn=0.000695,0.001032&sll=35.237843,-80.841967&layer=c&cbp=13,232.56,,0,18.73&cbll=35.237766,-80.841671&hnear=705+N+Carolina+Music+Factory+Blvd,+Charlotte,+North+Carolina+28206&t=h&z=21&panoid=UA8pTowEgD3ejY9Q0Bch9w

IMHO, the sheer cost of engineering this ROW for the Red Line plus the CSX grade separation, triple-trackage, bridges and platforms to the proposed Gateway station would cost much more than the $250 Million range quoted by NCDOT.

Why are the powers that be still wasting their time with Gateway?!

The O-line behind ADM is what I was asking about. IIRC all the other work besides just the gateway stuff would still need to be done for the SEHSR. The main issue then is what infrastructure do we have in place that can handle the auto traffic. Caldwell/Parkwood just doesn't have as good of a highway connection as Trade does. That said the BLE connection that would be possible with the Brevard site is better than the streetcar, and I'd be fine with it over the Trade street site if greyhound is also willing to move there.

[southslider]

If nothing else, let Amtrak move to Gateway, however, connect Red Line to Blue Line at Parkwood.

[archiham04]

Perhaps the way to sell this temporary train station is to pitch it as part of a much larger and more ambitious project:  "This is a much needed pedestrian/bike connection across the railyard to connect the East and West Sides of Charlotte...  This mixed use bridge with amenities, retail, observation platforms etc... will incorporate an improved Amtrak station, B cycle, light rail stop,  blah blah blah..."

[archiham04]

Edited May 26, 2015 by archiham04