Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[Deleted.]

 

Foxx was simply announcing the Gateway Station TIGER Grant that we all already knew about.

A major announcement we already knew about. How disappointing, I was really hoping it was the TIGER Grant and the SSGA for the Streetcar Phase 2. TBH I really wanted the SSGA signed before the Mayoral election, just in case Edwin Peacock gets in. 

I'm very pleased with the TIGER Grant for Gateway, but the streetcar Phase 2 is more important to me, especially as it brings transport close to Fourth Ward and will be great for me to get around. 

[ChessieCat]

 

Foxx was simply announcing the Gateway Station TIGER Grant that we all already knew about.

 

Yea, but there are other options like running down Atando (if the passenger bypass track actually gets built on the proper side of the yard). Nothing can really happen on the grade separation until NS releases its traffic "study" for the O line. I think we all know that the "study" will say that insufficient capacity exists for commuter rail until some type of permanent accommodation is made for them on the NCRR.

I've never heard of that option-- so do you mean that the "O"-line dual trackage would continue along the Atando Wye southward into Charlotte Yard and then follow the NCRR/NS alignment over the CSX at Graham Interlocking (ADM)? 

[uptownliving]

Well its not the grand station we have been waiting for a long time, but good to see that dirt will hopefully be moving in 18 months on Phase 1.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article41835936.html

[Deleted.]

Well its not the grand station we have been waiting for a long time, but good to see that dirt will hopefully be moving in 18 months on Phase 1.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article41835936.html

That's great news! So CATS and the City has $20 Million from a previous grant for Gateway? Is this on top of the $75 Million needed for the streetcar Phase 2, or does the $20M come from a money pot that is also going to fund the streetcar? I know this is probably the wrong thread to ask. 

Is Gateway still going to use the Hines' design? Or the Little design? Because the Observer referenced the Little project, when I though NCDOT chose Houston-based Hines. 

[Spartan]

Yeah I'd like to know more about the "temporary" design. I hoping that "temporary" doesn't translate to "double-wide-in-the-sky." 

[15895]

That's great news! So CATS and the City has $20 Million from a previous grant for Gateway? Is this on top of the $75 Million needed for the streetcar Phase 2, or does the $20M come from a money pot that is also going to fund the streetcar? I know this is probably the wrong thread to ask. 

Is Gateway still going to use the Hines' design? Or the Little design? Because the Observer referenced the Little project, when I though NCDOT chose Houston-based Hines. 

CBJ also linked to Little & Bank of America. 

 

Hines backed out last year.

[Deleted.]

CBJ also linked to Little & Bank of America. 

 

Hines backed out last year.

So are we eventually going to get the Little design?! I feel like a kid on Christmas!!! 

Why did Hine's back out? Has anyone else submitted designs for Gateway? 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Piedmont767
Correcting my horrible grammar. You had to quote me with my terrible grammar, didn't you AirNostrumMAD! ;-)

[Third Strike]

Will they eventually tear down the current Amtrak station, once Gateway is completed? If so, does anybody know what the long time plans are for that parcel?

[15895]

So we eventually are the Little design?! I feel like a kid on Christmas!!! 

If Little & BoA are chosen to build the station, I guess it's possible. 

[uptownliving]

Will they eventually tear down the current Amtrak station, once Gateway is completed? If so, does anybody know what the long time plans are for that parcel?

The current Amtrak station is owned by Norfolk Southern, so once Amtrak leaves I assume NS will do with it whatever they want....I'm guessing it stays and NS will use it for storage or offices.

Yeah I'd like to know more about the "temporary" design. I hoping that "temporary" doesn't translate to "double-wide-in-the-sky." 

If it is like any of the other temporary Amshacks I have used over the years, it will be an actual building, but a very basic box.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Can someone refresh my memory on the specifics of the ADM interlocking grade separation? Didn't NS say they weren't going to allow any additional passenger trains through without the grade separation, making Gateway impossible before the grade separation was completed? You're looking at at least six upon opening (Carolinian and two Piedmonts), and the fourth and fifth frequencies of the Piedmont are anticipated between 2017 and 2019.

Also, has the recent closure of the CSX terminal in Erwin, TN and subsequent downgrade of the Clinchfield route reduced the number of CSX trains through the interlocking? Pretty sure someone on here is employed with CSXT.

[cltbwimob]

Yeah I'd like to know more about the "temporary" design. I hoping that "temporary" doesn't translate to "double-wide-in-the-sky." 

I imagine it will end up looking like the Norfolk, VA Amshack- not grand, but not bad either...just kind of bland.

[kermit]

Can someone refresh my memory on the specifics of the ADM interlocking grade separation? Didn't NS say they weren't going to allow any additional passenger trains through without the grade separation, making Gateway impossible before the grade separation was completed? You're looking at at least six upon opening (Carolinian and two Piedmonts), and the fourth and fifth frequencies of the Piedmont are anticipated between 2017 and 2019.

Also, has the recent closure of the CSX terminal in Erwin, TN and subsequent downgrade of the Clinchfield route reduced the number of CSX trains through the interlocking? Pretty sure someone on here is employed with CSXT.

We haven't seen Total Lamer (the CSX employee) in a while, I hope he returns at some point. I had heard a while ago that since NS controls the interlocking (they were there 'first") they get to decide how many trains run through it. I was skeptical of that statement at the time -- their must be some type of agreement between railroads that limits trains passing through. 

Now that the Clinchfield is closed, there is a slim chance that CSX might be willing to move their intermodal terminal to the other side of town (around Four Mile Creek and 485) if NCDOT was willing to build it for them. If this happened CSX could (theoretically) move its Paw Creek liquid freight through Bostic to Spartanburg (since they now have spare capacity). If this happened then NCDOT and CATS could 1) close the NS interlocking (problem solved) and 2) CATS could take possession of the ROW from downtown to Matthews for LRT (which could terminate at a park and ride at 485 and John St). I think there is currently only one freight customer between Matthews and ADM.

While this strategy has lots of moving parts, it might be cheaper than the original grade separation plans (which had a cost of $128 million) and create bigger  benefits for Charlotte in terms of transit and land use. 

EDIT: The NS Intermodal terminal at the airport cost $90 million to build.

Edited October 30, 2015 by kermit

[15895]

Charlotte, I bet one day, will be considered the Portland, Salt Lake, Denver or Minneapolis of the South. I think since 2005, our urban growth has been heading in the right direction. Especially with   The cities penchant to have everything uptown. Just add in the mall at the Charlotte Observer site, let NodA, Plaza, Elizabeth, Midtown & SouthEnd continue to bleed into uptown.... Perfection. 

 

No knock on Houston, Dallas or Atlanta, but I don't want to have a sprawling skyline, sprawling urban growth, no multiple skylines. Of course our city overall will always sprawl and the densification of places like SouthPark is smart, but I prefer to keep the urban growth a compact core ringing around Trade/Tryon

 

 

just like I said about Romare Park & BBT stadium. This will be a very transformative project

[southslider]

So CATS and the City has $20 Million from a previous grant for Gateway? Is this on top of the $75 Million needed for the streetcar Phase 2, or does the $20M come from a money pot that is also going to fund the streetcar?

The $75 million is separate from Gateway. 

[Spartan]

Does either version of the station include long term parking or a place for pickup traffic to wait? The current station crams a lot of cars onto its site.

[RVA2CLT]

I feel like like I had a hand in all this..  I know I didn't of course...  but extremely similar approach from my post in December 2013 regarding what Norfolk VA did w/ $3M in a year on their 'AM-Shack'. If it wasn't for all the track work our shack could be done by the end of 2016.

Posted 2 Dec 2013

I just wanted to share this to illustrate how fast a 'first phase' of Gateway could be built if NCDOT & local support got fully behind it.

Norfolk VA, -  Amtrak began service from downtown Norfolk last December 2012; this marked the return of intercity passenger rail service to the city for the first time since 1977.

At a cost of $3M, a newly built Amtrak station will open today; it began construction in February 2013 and includes the following features:

• 3,500 square foot station.
• The building includes a ticket counter, a waiting room & bathrooms.
• The platform will be 725 feet long and partially covered with canopies.
• The station, just near Harbor Park, will be looked at as a potential multi-modal station in the future to include rail, light rail, bus, cab, and ferry services.

 

This is a great model to the beginning development of the Multi-modal station Norfolk is looking towards building-out in the future.

I feel it would a great way for Gateway's Multimodal station to get off the ground by develop in phases, so we could actually see Intercity rail service in the heart of Crowntown by mid-decade. Just get the trains arriving/departing in center city with a station that is comfortable but will be expanded and built-on as rail services and ridership increases.

I know it's not a fair comparison.. and there is a lot of physical rail work to do here as well as NS ROW schedule/usage requirements ...  but.. it's just look what can be done in less than a year with a single new train service being added!
 

and here we are...  just waiting, with no real plans to move forward... only more 'studies' ahead.. and still with a slight metallic taste in our mouths from the NS/CSX grade separation that will not happen partially thanks for the leadership and planning capabilities of NCDOT.
 

 

Edited October 30, 2015 by RVA2CLT

[cltbwimob]

I was thinking about this today, and I wonder if they would consider rebuilding the current Greyhound stop as part of this project.  Perhaps they could build the waiting area level with the platforms and have all the intercity buses such as Greyhound and Megabus located below the train station such that all intercity buses and trains terminate in one station.  I know that's part of the long term plans, but I wondered if it would be considered in the short term as well.

On another note, I can't help but think that even this intermediate fix for CGS will be nothing short of a boon for Uptown.  The current Amshack is already the busiest train station in the state (200K+ riders per year), and it is located in the heart of a very uninviting portion of town in a rail yard.  Having the stop located in Uptown will almost certainly increase the ridership considering that it will be more convenient for business travelers, leisure travelers, and even perhaps people riding in just to catch a Panthers game.  If the designers integrate it well with a new intercity bus terminal and phase 2 of the streetcar, I expect we will see hundreds of thousands of people per year coming into an area of uptown that is right now, for all intents and purposes, dead.  And with all those people, Charlotte has a chance to capitalize on some major development opportunities.

Edited October 30, 2015 by cltbwimob
Spelling, misplaced commas, and rewording...The original post was just awful in terms of the amount of errors

[Third Strike]

I feel like like I had a hand in all this..  I know I didn't of course...  but extremely similar approach from my post in December 2013 regarding what Norfolk VA did w/ $3M in a year on their 'AM-Shack'. If it wasn't for all the track work our shack could be done by the end of 2016.

Wow, Norfolk's "Am-shack" looks great. Like ten times better than our current station. Even if we are years away from a full blown multi-modal station, I'm completely content with having a station that looks as good as Norfolk's. Plus, phase two of the Gold Line should be up and running, and that will link the station with the rest of our transit system.

With that said, I would love one of these shacks near the airport someday. Not just for Amtrak, but also for a future commuter line to Gastonia.

[kermit]

The current Amshack is already the busiest train station in the state (200K+ riders per year), and it is located in the heart of a very uninviting portion of town in a rail yard.  Having the stop located in Uptown will almost certainly increase the ridership considering that it will be more convenient for business travelers, leisure travelers, and even perhaps people riding in just to catch a Panthers game.  If the designers integrate it well with the intercity busses, and phase 2 of the streetcar, I expect we will see hundreds of thousands of people per year coming into an area of uptown that is right now, for all intents and purposes, dead.  And with all those people, Charlotte has a chance to capitalize on some major development opportunities.

Any uptown station is going to cause intercity ridership to explode (assuming equipment is available to support it). A downtown station will make the intercity service visible to people living and working uptown for the first time. When those trains become visible when moving over Tryon and are parked over Trade st thousands of Charlotte residents will realize, for the first time, that it is possible to ride the train to the Triad and Triangle. Combine that with 1) more coaches on the Carolinian (which is now mostly sold out) and 2) two additional planned Piedmont frequencies (more frequency always gooses ridership)  and 3) new riders who will be able to walk to Panthers, hotels, convention center etc. and you have the makings for a serious ridership bump. 

My back of the envelope calculations for maximum potential passenger traffic the new Charlotte station when it opens are:

Carolinian -- 2 additional coaches, 140 additional passengers per train (280 new riders per day max)

Piedmont (current service) -- 2 additional coaches 120 additional passengers per train (480 per day max)

Piedmont (new service) -- 4 coaches per train, 240 passengers per train  (960 per day max)

Potential maximum new ridership: 1,700 per day = 600,000 per year

Existing station boarding: 201,000

Total possible passengers from currently planned service: 800,000 (2,000 per day)

This volume of riders would make Charlotte the 9th busiest Amtrak station (slightly less than Sacramento and slightly more than Albany)

[ChessieCat]

^Nice calcs.  And that is not even including the possible Heavy Rail lines:

1) Red Line

2) Gastoia/Airport Line along a widened NS corridor instead of LRT

3) A commuter line to Kannapolis/Salisbury along the NS/NCRR

Question:  Piedmont trains will turn around at the planned maintenance yard near the Summit street crossing, correct?  Schlepping all the way to Atando and having to re-cross Graham Interlocking would create a cluster...

Question 2:  Does anyone know if NCDOT put a clause in the contract with NS for cooperation with airport passenger rail in exchange for funding the Intermodal facility? 

 

Edited October 30, 2015 by ChessieCat

[kermit]

Question:  Piedmont trains will turn around at the planned maintenance yard near the Summit street crossing, correct?  Schlepping all the way to Atando and having to re-cross Graham Interlocking would create a cluster.

Kinda. NCDOT is planning for push-pull service on the Piedmont so no turning will be required. I believe NCDOT has already purchased the necessary cab units using the ARRA funds. This does not tell us anything about how the Carolinian will be turned. There is no wye or loop track planned for summit. I did just reread the EIS for the service yard and it did not account for the Carolinian crossing the interlocking in order to be turned at Atando. They could potentially turn it at Pineville.

The other thing I read in the EIS was that they plan to stop the Crescent for fueling (and probably the crew change) at the service yard in addition to the station stop. Crescent fueling is currently done via truck delivery to the current station. 

Question 2:  Does anyone know if NCDOT put a clause in the contract with NS for cooperation with airport passenger rail in exchange for funding the Intermodal facility? 

That would have been smart -- so I do not think that NCDOT did any negotiating for more pax service on NS owned tracks. I think the terms of the deal for the intermodal yard were limited to the land swap. 

I suspect that NS will require a third track between Gateway and the intermodal yard entrance before they will agree to extending intercity service to the airport. Its about 4 miles, so figure around $20-$25 million in track improvements.

Edited October 30, 2015 by kermit

[ChessieCat]

 

Kinda. NCDOT is planning for push-pull service on the Piedmont so no turning will be required. I believe NCDOT has already purchased the necessary cab units using the ARRA funds. This does not tell us anything about how the Carolinian will be turned. There is no wye or loop track planned for summit. I did just reread the EIS for the service yard and it did not account for the Carolinian crossing the interlocking in order to be turned at Atando. They could potentially turn it at Pineville.

The other thing I read in the EIS was that they plan to stop the Crescent for fueling (and probably the crew change) at the service yard in addition to the station stop. Crescent fueling is currently done via truck delivery to the current station. 

That would have been smart -- so I do not think that NCDOT did any negotiating for more pax service on NS owned tracks. I think the terms of the deal for the intermodal yard were limited to the land swap. 

I suspect that NS will require a third track between Gateway and the intermodal yard entrance before they will agree to extending intercity service to the airport. Its about 4 miles, so figure around $20-$25 million in track improvements.

I dug up this old study which talks about building a wye (page 20) where the NS "R" line merges onto the Piedmont Division mainline between Morris Field Dr and Old Steele Creek Rd:

http://localdocs.uncc.edu/MUMPO_thru_09-2013_beg10-2013_see_CRTPO/Reports_Studies/2009_CharRRISP.pdf

It would be around a 4 mile journey one way from Gateway for Carolinian trains to turn around here.  

I can see this wye being on the NCDOT wish list cause eastward trains from CLT/Intermodal  would be able to merge southward onto the "R" line.  At present northbound trains on the "R" line can only merge eastward onto the mainline so it would be a win-win for both NS and pax service from the airport to the southern suburbs.

EDIT:  This study contains basically everything on the wish list from the CSX grade separation to Gateway to the Maintenance Yard. Nicely done. 

Edited October 31, 2015 by ChessieCat

[Dale]

Picked up a friend at the Amtrak station today.

Almost third-worldish.

 

 

 

 

[SgtCampsalot]

Picked up a friend at the Amtrak station today.

Almost third-worldish.

Re - posted for truthiness.