Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[nyxmike]

7 hours ago, kermit said:

Lots has happened on this site this week. It looks like all the rails are now down. Basically just ballast, the switch tie-in and some landscaping remain.

Photos are from Palmer street, Mgelbach's excellent drone photo is from Summit st.

Sorry for not being familiar but what is this project? I'm assuming it's track work related to Gateway but that looks like a station ?

[kermit]

22 minutes ago, nyxmike said:

Sorry for not being familiar but what is this project? I'm assuming it's track work related to Gateway but that looks like a station ?

Its a new service yard for passenger rail equipment. Its not technically connected to Gateway station. No passengers will ever board here, the platform is for maintenance only. 

Once opened, the service and storage capacity will enable more trains between here and Raleigh. In addition, it will allow the Carolinian (which spends the night here) to add an extra coach (if Amtrak can find one) which will make the train its first profitable one South of Virginia.  

Edited January 22, 2018 by kermit

[kermit]

CSX has announced that it is shopping about of 1/3 of its network to buyers. It explicitly lists "Large sections of the Florence Division in the Carolinas " which includes their trackage in Charlotte.  I have long had the position that Charlotte is not a big moneymaker for CSX and they would consider a sale of the trackage. In theory there is room for a cooperative bid for the tracks between a shortline freight operator and CATS running commuter service to Monroe. The Nashville and Eastern RR in Nashville has a similar setup for the Music City Star service.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/01/22-csx-reviewing-8000-miles-of-rail-lines-for-potential-sale

[go_vertical]

I'm not super up to speed on all of the rail stuff, but was it CSX or NS that caused the red line to stall?

[Scribe]

^^ NS

[deleted]

9 minutes ago, kermit said:

CSX has announced that it is shopping about of 1/3 of its network to buyers. It explicitly lists "Large sections of the Florence Division in the Carolinas " which includes their trackage in Charlotte.  I have long had the position that Charlotte is not a big moneymaker for CSX and they would consider a sale of the trackage. In theory there is room for a cooperative bid for the tracks between a shortline freight operator and CATS running commuter service to Monroe. The Nashville and Eastern RR in Nashville has a similar setup for the Music City Star service.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/01/22-csx-reviewing-8000-miles-of-rail-lines-for-potential-sale

Very interesting.  That line to Matthews could be better than what they are planning on the Silver Line (though I don't know if TOD would be as likely).  And as you said, getting to Monroe would be much easier with the ROW already established.  If NS did something similar, we could build out the airport and lake routes also...

 

[ajfunder]

1 hour ago, JBS said:

If NS did something similar, we could build out the airport and lake routes also...

 

NS would never do something this shortsighted and dumb though (at least with present management), especially with the amount of traffic they move through Charlotte.

 CSX's current management is a dumpster fire and they are using slash and burn tactics to artificially inflate stock prices. Eventually, the whole thing is going to come tumbling down (after the current management group has made a quick buck of course). 

[kermit]

^ This

Charlotte is a peripheral place in the CSX network, but we are a critical cog for NS. NS is gonna fight to maintain its capacity here so we can't expect them to be cooperative without huge $$$. I am honestly surprised they agreed to the new service yard and Gateway since it will require passenger trains to move South of the end of the NCRR (the Tryon St overpass).

[SgtCampsalot]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

CSX has announced that it is shopping about of 1/3 of its network to buyers. It explicitly lists "Large sections of the Florence Division in the Carolinas " which includes their trackage in Charlotte.  I have long had the position that Charlotte is not a big moneymaker for CSX and they would consider a sale of the trackage. In theory there is room for a cooperative bid for the tracks between a shortline freight operator and CATS running commuter service to Monroe. The Nashville and Eastern RR in Nashville has a similar setup for the Music City Star service.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/01/22-csx-reviewing-8000-miles-of-rail-lines-for-potential-sale

This seems like it could be a game changer. Having passenger rail to Monroe is like a missing piece. I think there are plenty of good opportunities for TOD. Just depends on where the stations are.

23 minutes ago, ajfunder said:

NS would never do something this shortsighted and dumb though (at least with present management), especially with the amount of traffic they move through Charlotte.

 CSX's current management is a dumpster fire and they are using slash and burn tactics to artificially inflate stock prices. Eventually, the whole thing is going to come tumbling down (after the current management group has made a quick buck of course). 

Would you say it would be unethical if local gov't took advantage of that for passenger rail opportunities? I hate the idea of ruining freight functionality for the next generation, but if they're making their own bed...

[kermit]

10 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Would you say it would be unethical if local gov't took advantage of that for passenger rail opportunities? I hate the idea of ruining freight functionality for the next generation, but if they're making their own bed...

If they are selling then they want someone to buy it. Nothing unethical about this at all.

As long as CATS runs commuter rail (not light rail) the route remains compatible with freight operations so a shortline / CATS partnership would not ruin freight functionality.  

Strangely enough, the shortline / CATS partnership model kinda fits the still vague expectations of donny's infrastructure plan.

[ajfunder]

58 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

This seems like it could be a game changer. Having passenger rail to Monroe is like a missing piece. I think there are plenty of good opportunities for TOD. Just depends on where the stations are.

Would you say it would be unethical if local gov't took advantage of that for passenger rail opportunities? I hate the idea of ruining freight functionality for the next generation, but if they're making their own bed...

Not at all, as long as the corridor is preserved for freight operations to some extent. What is happening at CSX is a disaster IMO unfolding before our eyes, but the railroad itself may benefit from a shortline/city partnership. 

[Bikeguy]

So... could this CSX line theoretically connect the following :  Wingate, Monroe, Stallings/Indian Trail, Matthews, Sardis Road, Rama Rd, Wendover Rd, Plaza Midwood, Brevard, Gateway, CLT Airport, Belmont, Cramerton, and Gastonia?  

[kermit]

6 hours ago, Bikeguy said:

So... could this CSX line theoretically connect the following :  Wingate, Monroe, Stallings/Indian Trail, Matthews, Sardis Road, Rama Rd, Wendover Rd, Plaza Midwood, Brevard, Gateway, CLT Airport, Belmont, Cramerton, and Gastonia?  

Not quite. The tracks most likely to be sold at a reasonable price run from Monroe to Lincolnton (and on to Shelby and Rutherfordton). So what is theoretically possible is:  Monroe, Stallings/Indian Trail, Matthews, Sardis Road, Rama Rd, Wendover Rd, Plaza Midwood, Brevard, PLUS Music Factory, Hoskins, Paw Creek, Mt Holly, Stanley, Iron Station and Lincolnton.

CSX does not go to Gateway, but it may be possible to get there without much track work (although the track designs for the Gateway station throat are being finalized now).

NS owns the tracks from Gateway west. The CSX tracks from Monroe to Wingate are part of a heavily traffic line that is less likely to be available to CATS due to  substantial freight traffic.

Edited January 23, 2018 by kermit

[Popsickle]

For your viewing pleasure...CSX track map from https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/customers/maps/csx-system-map/

 

Also, this link, https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=352556db969240c99a06a179f56b8403 takes you to the NCDOT railmap in ARCGIS which allows you to play with the map and get more detail. 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Popsickle
More train maps!!!!

[Scribe]

WOW, Microsoft still does not have I-485 completed on their maps....!

[deleted]

4 hours ago, Scribe said:

WOW, Microsoft still does not have I-485 completed on their maps....!

I suspect that's from the CSX website (I was on there yesterday also) and thus not a current Microsoft map.

[Popsickle]

8 hours ago, JBS said:

I suspect that's from the CSX website (I was on there yesterday also) and thus not a current Microsoft map.

It is from the CSX site. 

[KJHburg]

Sorry this might be the wrong place to put this but I saw this old train station today right here in Mecklenburg County.  Not sure even who owns it but would not this be a great restaurant or something?  It is located at Freedom Dr/Moores Chapel Rd  and according to google maps it was moved there. Probably the old Thrift train depot.  It is in the heart of "Tanktown" where all the big storage tanks are.  Anybody know anything about this?  I have never noticed this before. 

[kermit]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Sorry this might be the wrong place to put this but I saw this old train station today right here in Mecklenburg County.  Not sure even who owns it but would not this be a great restaurant or something?  It is located at Freedom Dr/Moores Chapel Rd  and according to google maps it was moved there. Probably the old Thrift train depot.  It is in the heart of "Tanktown" where all the big storage tanks are.  Anybody know anything about this?  I have never noticed this before. 

If its still at Freedom and Moores Chapel it has not been moved. CSX owns it and is very happy to give it to anyone who is willing to move it IIRC. I am also fairly certain that CSX is unwilling to allow any activity occur there in its current location. It was one of the old P&N stations, there were 5 or 6 others just like it but I believe this building and the Mt Holly station are the last remaining examples. There is info about it on the Charlotte Historic Buildings site

[11 HouseBZ]

It was moved across the intersection I believe. You can see the old spot on Google maps.

[dubone]

I noticed on NCDOT Now that the Piedmont Improvement Program is now complete.  Hopefully it can be combined now with the completion of the major crossing closures in NE Charlotte and Gateway Station.    It was somewhat pitched as part of the 'higher speed' rail in the Recovery stimulus in 2009.  Double tracked all the way to Greensboro (and I think already double tracked to Durham) and much faster now.  It says this allows allows for the 4th and 5th round trip from Charlotte to Raleigh.  Those trains are on the STIP to be purchased this year, or at least funded this year for $20M:

Quote

P-5719                            PIEDMONT SERVICE EXPANSION.

PURCHASE 5 BI-LEVEL PASSENGER CARS.

-  ACQUIRE AND REBUILD 2 ADDITIONAL LOCOMOTIVES

- ACQUIRE AND REFURBISH 2 COACH AND 1 LOUNGE/BAGGAGE RAIL CARS

https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/pip/

It is still a thorn in my side that the money for the Mainline separation was canceled and the railroads balked at doing it after all, when it was supposed to be to their major benefit, mainly because uptown horn noise would have dropped dramatically.  But also that that money was reallocated to Raleigh's station instead of Charlotte's 4 blocks away.   Regardless, it seems now NCDOT can finally focus on the remaining projects here to get the Charlotte rail components funded and fixed.  

 

[KJHburg]

Here is that railyard on Summit Ave that site has a fantastic view of the skyline.  This was from my vehicle waiting on a train.  This was from Monday. 

[cowboy_wilhelm]

12 hours ago, dubone said:

Double tracked all the way to Greensboro (and I think already double tracked to Durham) and much faster now. 

The NCRR is nowhere close to being double-tracked between Greensboro and Raleigh. They've added a few passing sidings, but it's probably 90%+ single track.

[dubone]

2 hours ago, cowboy_wilhelm said:

The NCRR is nowhere close to being double-tracked between Greensboro and Raleigh. They've added a few passing sidings, but it's probably 90%+ single track.

I see that now, although I am curious why it isn't something listed as a priority to complete, especially between Durham and Raleigh with Commuter Rail a longer term inevitability.  

But the good news remains true of the PIP completion and 4th and 5th daily trains going into service soon.  

[ajfunder]

16 hours ago, dubone said:

I see that now, although I am curious why it isn't something listed as a priority to complete, especially between Durham and Raleigh with Commuter Rail a longer term inevitability.  

But the good news remains true of the PIP completion and 4th and 5th daily trains going into service soon.  

Freight traffic is much lower on the the NCRR North(east) of Greensboro and thus does not warrant double track at this time. The Charlotte to Greensboro segment is part of the NS Crescent corridor which branches off (due North) from the NCRR at Greensboro. 

 

The Piedmont improvement corridor between Greensboro and Raleigh included longer passing sidings, maybe a few additional ones, and higher speed switches so trains don't have to slow as much.

Edited February 1, 2018 by ajfunder