Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[orulz]

I believe the commuter rail project between Raleigh and Durham *does* include full double track for that length. There are several segments of double track already in there and the plans would be to connect them together. This would allow something like nine daily commuter trains in each direction while leaving space for freight and allowing for the future planned intercity schedule, which would be something like 5 CLT-RGH locals + 5 CLT-RGH-WAS express runs daily.

Compared to the plan that died in 2005, though, this is small potatoes. TTA planned to build a dedicated, 28-mile, double-track railroad so they could run DMUs every 15 minutes all day, from Durham to North Raleigh. The plan was a relative bargain, too, at something like $850 million after final engineering was complete (which would be about $1.1 billion today.) The other cool thing about this project was that it was fully FRA compliant which would have allowed them to connect the tracks and through-run the DMUs onto existing tracks out into the suburbs like Wake Forest, Zebulon, or Clayton.

Problem is, the original budget was something more like $700 million, which was to be shared 25% local, 25% state, and 50% federal. FTA was on board with that.  But that 25% was the absolute most that TTA could possibly afford with their existing revenue sources, so when the final estimates came in, they had to ask the feds to cover the shortfall and the federal share rose to about 60%, and at that point it started to fall apart. If we had a sales tax, we could have covered the shortfall locally (by delaying future projects, or reallocating money from operations, or something to that effect.)

Now, rather than bringing back the DMU plan, Durham County is planning to basically spend all their capital money on a light rail link to Chapel Hill.  If it happens, it will be a very well-built line and highly future-proof, and will probably be well patronized, but it will also be very expensive - and they won't have any money left to contribute to even the toned-down commuter rail plan for years to come.

[kermit]

According to the latest Amtrak monthly performance report the Carolinian now has 97% farebox recovery of operating expenses (The train has $17.8 million in ticket revenue and $18.4 million in expenses). This is incredibly good for Amtrak. If Amtrak can find an additional coach for the train (which is only possible to add once the new passenger maintenance and storage yard at Summit street opens)  the route will certainly become profitable on an above the rails basis. A new station in Raleigh and (eventually) Gateway should further boost average fares on the route.

This success is even more remarkable considering the train's atrocious on time performance (48%)

Ultimately this should allow NCDOT to redirect their current subsidy to a different train / route. The Piedmonts are still about $2.5 million in the hole per year, but I hope that the additional frequencies can reduce that deficit.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/monthlyperformancereports/2017/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-September-2017-Preliminary-Unaudited.pdf

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by kermit

[dubone]

That is amazing and supportive evidence that investing to offer something of value can have a meaningful recovery in the marketplace.   Obviously there is still reason to subsidize capital infrastructure, just as is done for road networks.  

 

The tragedy of Amtrak in Columbia of course reminds us of the need for improvements in the safety and multitracking and some automations and sensors for safety.   But because that train didn't come through Charlotte, it reminds me of a quirk I've always disliked that the NY to MIA trains skip the Raleigh-Charlotte corridor, and that fact has often remains on High Speed Rail plan maps, even though the Raleigh to Columbia path only has one intermediate destination that has any speakable population (Fayetteville).   Rail travel is obviously only useful in long distances if it also has some intermediate, shorter distance stops to help support the whole route.   The current Amtrak route that was affected by today's tragedy doesn't even go through Fayetteville, rather Southern Pines, Hamlet and Camden.  https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/Maps/Natl-System-Timetable-0317.pdf

I believe it is really time to start thinking about upgrading the Charlotte to Columbia rail corridor to improve this long distance route but also to add service that is clearly omitted between two major regional cities that are now large enough to warrant it.      It would also be more useful within SC to upgrade the Columbia to Rock Hill corridor between their population centers rather than the much longer rural path.

Railroad improvements are not likely to gain much attention, so it is more or less just a thought that won't lead anywhere.  But I do think we should not only be looking intrastate to Raleigh and to ultra long-term plans like the SEHSR to Atlanta, but also just normal incremental improvements to routes and corridors like Charlotte to Columbia to gain a rerouting of the Amtrak NY to Miami route with more productive intermediate stops. 

 

 

[kermit]

^ Actually your wish may come true very soon. It sounds likely that CSX will sell or abandon the route that the Star currently runs on through Southern Pines and Hamlet -- regardless their choice, speeds will get downgraded on the section of track between Cary and Columbia making the current route of the Star unusable.

Amtrak discussed routing the Star along the NCRR through Charlotte back in a 2011 report (http://floridacoalitionofrailpassengers.memberlodge.com/Resources/Documents/Amtrak_2011_PRIIA_210_Report_09-26-11_final[1].pdf see page 73) . They believed that the reroute would generate significantly more ridership for the train. The major roadblock is that accessing the current Columbia station is difficult / impossible (I can't remember which) from the NS tracks coming from Charlotte.

Building a new Columbia station on NS tracks is something that would (theoretically) enable intercity service between Charlotte and Columbia, I think 5 trains per day between the two cities would be a huge benefit to both cities and make academic partnerships between USC and UNCC practical. Unfortunately SC state government is never gonna spend a dime on passenger rail.

Edited February 4, 2018 by kermit

[nicholas]

On 2/3/2018 at 12:58 PM, kermit said:

According to the latest Amtrak monthly performance report the Carolinian now has 97% farebox recovery of operating expenses (The train has $17.8 million in ticket revenue and $18.4 million in expenses). This is incredibly good for Amtrak. If Amtrak can find an additional coach for the train (which is only possible to add once the new passenger maintenance and storage yard at Summit street opens)  the route will certainly become profitable on an above the rails basis. A new station in Raleigh and (eventually) Gateway should further boost average fares on the route.

This success is even more remarkable considering the train's atrocious on time performance (48%)

Ultimately this should allow NCDOT to redirect their current subsidy to a different train / route. The Piedmonts are still about $2.5 million in the hole per year, but I hope that the additional frequencies can reduce that deficit.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/monthlyperformancereports/2017/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-September-2017-Preliminary-Unaudited.pdf

 

Hopefully all the recent Amtrak wrecks don't scare too many riders off though.

[dubone]

When I was googling it, I did see the flurry of discussion in 2011.   I just hope SC has plans in place to take the corridor when it is available.  We are very lucky to have publicly owned NCRR.  SC could benefit the same way and as I mentioned earlier, the 100 mile Charlotte to Rock Hill to Columbia could work well for commuters and for NY to FL long distance. 

Quote

This reroute would provide direct service between Florida and major population centers in North Carolina. However, there is no direct connection between NS’s Charlotte-to-Columbia rail line over which the train would be rerouted and the CSX rail line that serves Amtrak’s Columbia station, and significant investments would be required for equipment and other capital costs.

Sadly, I don't look at SC as a state willing to invest in this, but the one hope is that it benefits their fast growing Rock Hill urban area. 

 

As for scaring riders, it is a risk, but also a major reason we need to invest for safety and especially if there is a passenger only corridor that can be invested in. 

[SgtCampsalot]

I heard more details on the news this morning. What a tragedy, I can't imagine losing someone from something as senseless and avoidable as that.

Even as a rail nerd and advocate, I can personally say there is something uniquely scary about train accidents. Maybe it's because you have zero control of the situation, whereas in an auto you at least have the illusion of control. Then there's the fact that a train is sooo much larger than a car, so the potential danger seems equally larger. 

[cowboy_wilhelm]

This is a well-written article from The News & Observer discussing the implementation and status of PTC in North Carolina. It also mentions that the third Piedmont service will begin in May (first updated date I've seen), and the fourth in 2020.

[kermit]

High level platform at the just about new open new Raleigh station. The high level looks very strange in the South. (Gateway will have these)

Edited February 9, 2018 by kermit

[deleted]

20 minutes ago, kermit said:

High level platform at the just about new open new Raleigh station. The high level looks very strange in the South. (Gateway will have these)

What's with the tracks under the platform (or is that an optical illusion)?

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, JBS said:

What's with the tracks under the platform (or is that an optical illusion)?

Illusion, that is how high the station platform is...

[kermit]

14 minutes ago, JBS said:

What's with the tracks under the platform (or is that an optical illusion)?

Those tracks were still under construction (rails had not yet been fastend to ties and were all wacky looking).

Rode two midday Piedmont trains in 2 days. Yesterday was crowded, today is VERY crowded. Time for new frequency and additional coaches!

Edited February 9, 2018 by kermit

[kermit]

The Summit street passenger equipment storage yard appears to be 100% complete with the exception of the switch tieing the yard into the main. I believe the switches and installation equipment are all up by Mathesion now so it should be any day, but its _really_ hard to get a good look at the switch location.

[Third Strike]

On 2/9/2018 at 11:34 AM, kermit said:

High level platform at the just about new open new Raleigh station. The high level looks very strange in the South. (Gateway will have these)

I really want that bridge-canopy design to happen. Imagine viewing Uptown at night from I-77...

Edited February 12, 2018 by Third Strike

[soumith050118]

When Gateway Station finishes do you think it'll become the primary hub for Uptown. AirNostrumMAD from the Lynx Blue Line thread thinks "

I would love to see it go down to pretty much Express service and maybe 2 other routes. (He's talking about CTC)

I’d like to see a very small uptown hub at Gateway with local routes. Not many. 

Id like the bus routes to be mainly consolidated along the blue line. Anyone who needs to go to uptown can be routed to the blue line and just get off at the best uptown location

He also talked about the Eastland and Rosa Parks bus hubs being a possible substitute

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?

[southslider]

^Local bus customers transfer more to and from LYNX than express bus customers. If anything,  Gateway makes more sense as the express bus staging hub.

 

[15895]

1 hour ago, southslider said:

^Local bus customers transfer more to and from LYNX than express bus customers. If anything,  Gateway makes more sense as the express bus staging hub.

 

I agree that local transfers to Lynx much more than Express riders.

Thats why I think just intertwining more bus routes throughout the blue line will be fine for local transfers who need uptown and have gateway serve a few more local routes + the Gold Line is there to get people through uptown. And some bus routes will  naturally cut through uptown. 

 

Express buses generally seem to be office works and I feel like CTC is a better location for Express riders looking to get to their office tower.

 

I agree with another poster CTC might be eventually biting the dust starting around 2030. I still just wish it would be renovated, made into an Express station (since there’s  generally smaller amounts of transfers and they serve office workers) and let it be an open air farmer markets on weekends. I think that would encourage development along Brevard and Trade. 

 

So make Gateway a multimodal connection point and let the current CTC and Lynx Blue Line (until CTC’s eventual demise) serve those whose destination is uptown 

Edited February 15, 2018 by AirNostrumMAD

[tozmervo]

Anecdotally, very few express bus riders use CTC today. All the routes loop through uptown and use stops dispersed around. I don't see that changing.

[sakami]

2 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Anecdotally, very few express bus riders use CTC today. All the routes loop through uptown and use stops dispersed around. I don't see that changing.

Yeah the the Express riders I knew only went to CTC if they knew their bus would be crowded (like Halloween or a more heavily used time) and they wanted to be guaranteed a seat. Otherwise it is much easier to just hop on at 4th St or wherever the closest stop to their Tryon office building was.  

Edited February 15, 2018 by sakami

[soumith050118]

Matthews Express, Union County Express, Independence Blvd Express,  and Lawyers Road Express only stop at CTC and Johnson and Wales Way  in Uptown when going Inbound. Some CATS Express routes only go to CTC and Johnson and Wales Way, and some do many stops in Uptown. Why is it like that?

Edited February 15, 2018 by soumith050118

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, soumith050118 said:

Matthews Express, Union County Express, Independence Blvd Express,  and Lawyers Road Express only stop at CTC and Johnson and Wales Way  in Uptown when going Inbound. Some CATS Express routes only go to CTC and Johnson and Wales Way, and some do many stops in Uptown. Why is it like that?

I think you might be confusing time points with stops. All of those buses have multiple stops in Uptown along their routes. 

[15895]

1 hour ago, sakami said:

Yeah the the Express riders I knew only went to CTC if they knew their bus would be crowded (like Halloween or a more heavily used time) and they wanted to be guaranteed a seat. Otherwise it is much easier to just hop on at 4th St or wherever the closest stop to their Tryon office building was.  

Is CTC a place anyone would want to be it they didn’t have to though? The place is disgusting. I don’t even think that sinks in the men’s bathroom works. 

A renovated CTC with focus on  BRT & Express would be a good  way to deal with a lack of funding for LRT lines, move the express busses from 3rd. 

I would just like some creativity and not just sell it off for a 300 south Tryon type development when there’s other available blocks (I like 300 south Tryon. But it’s an empty lobby, a few fancy restaraunts and cute landscaping)

[soumith050118]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

I think you might be confusing time points with stops. All of those buses have multiple stops in Uptown along their routes. 

Yeah, you are right.

Do you think CATS should try to put a sales tax increase for transit on the ballot before the temporary Gateway Station finishes? Then, CATS could put space on the Gateway Station for a future North Corridor Commuter Rail.

Edited February 15, 2018 by soumith050118

[Norm2]

1 hour ago, soumith050118 said:

Yeah, you are right.

Do you think CATS should try to put a sales tax increase for transit on the ballot before the temporary Gateway Station finishes? Then, CATS could put space on the Gateway Station for a future North Corridor Commuter Rail.

CATS and the city would need permission from the state legislature to attempt to raise taxes, and I don't foresee that happening, unfortunately.

[kermit]

^ I agree, but I do wonder if an advisory referendum on an increased trasnsit tax would grease the skids a bit. Their will certainly be an energized pro-transit electorate in November, would be a shame to let that opportunity pass without some initiative. 

(Unfortunatley CATS won’t have any usable cost estimates by then)