Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[soumith050118]

CATS Express routes should go around Uptown but they should end at Gateway Station. CATS should downsize CTC, and make it the primary local bus hub. Most of the local buses would end there in Uptown, but some could end at Gateway. A few express routes could end at CTC. Local bus passengers connect from bus to LRT more than express bus passengers, so they could just walk to CTC/Arena Station.

Edited February 16, 2018 by soumith050118

[soumith050118]

I was reading the final recommendations for the Gateway Station. I saw that CATS wants local buses to:

1. Accommodate CATS bus service in an off-street facility located on the ground floor of a structured parking facility on the South Block. The off-street bus facility will be shared by CATS local bus services and intercity bus services. 2. Bus ingress and egress to the facility will be off of Third Street (accessed from Graham Street) and Fourth Street. 3. Provide an indoor, climate-controlled waiting area adjacent to the bus facility. 

CATS wants express buses to:. Accommodate CATS bus services with stops in both directions on-street along Fourth Street (preferred) or Trade Street. Fourth Street is preferred over Trade Street due to the volume of streetcar and other vehicular activity on Trade Street. Locating bus stops along Fourth Street also provides a direct connection to the offstreet bus facility on the South Block used by local and intercity buses.

Future Rapid Transit Connections 1. Incorporate future CATS bus-based or rail-based transit corridors as appropriate within the overall site plan.

[soumith050118]

The train next to Amtrak is freight, right?

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, soumith050118 said:

The train next to Amtrak is freight, right?

That is correct, the existing freight tracks remain in place.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Scribe

[soumith050118]

Tweet and email John Lewis and CATS, so they can reconsider putting one platform, and a few Amtrak tracks. At least put space for Amtrak expansion, and future commuter rail.

[KJHburg]

Not the Gateway station but the Intermodal yard today out at the airport.  It looked really busy and I wonder what their lifts are compared to their projections.  (It is hard to get a photo of this if not landing or getting out of your vehicle) 

[DH17]

I walk by the future Gateway Station every day on my way to work. The parking lot in between 5th and 6th streets on the Center City side of the tracks (right next to the Camden apartment complex) has a vacate notice and is empty as of 2/28. I suppose this is the start of progress?

[stiluvclt]

Can someone enlighten me as to why, after 25 years or so, the railroads that serve Charlotte, own right-of-way in and around Charlotte,  along with NCDOT have so much trouble coming together on  projects like grade separation, station building, the Red Line and sharing right-of-way? Do any of these factions want to work together?  The 17th largest city in the US, the 2nd largest city in the southeast (Wiki). All of these projects should be in full tilt right now. WTF?

[kermit]

18 minutes ago, stiluvclt said:

Can someone enlighten me as to why, after 25 years or so, the railroads that serve Charlotte, own right-of-way in and around Charlotte,  along with NCDOT have so much trouble coming together on  projects like grade separation, station building, the Red Line and sharing right-of-way? Do any of these factions want to work together?  The 17th largest city in the US, the 2nd largest city in the southeast (Wiki). All of these projects should be in full tilt right now. WTF?

NS and CSX are private companies that have existed (in one form or another) since before cars. Given their age, and they way the industry is regulated, they (and their shareholders) have very little to to gain from spending money on grade separations, safety or passenger rail. Since, legally speaking, cars are trespassing on their land I don't really blame them for being intransigent. FWIW I have the feeling that NS is being relatively helpful with Gateway station.

Despite the gloom and doom I do think we are approaching a time when railroads will begin to see passenger rail as a revenue source rather than as a PITA. As slow freight (like coal) disappears and fast freight (intermodal) takes its place freight railroads will need to maintain faster tracts which carry fewer trains. Passenger rail (run by someone else) can pay some bills for the host railroads while not causing mush wear and tear.

 

[dubone]

The mainline separation, though, was designed to improve things for CSX.   I suppose CSX reviewed it and the impacts during the project did not outweigh the benefits of the project, but still we had the money and were working towards it and they pretty much put so many requirements on it, that they canceled it and moved the money to fund the Raleigh station.  

 

NS probably would rather have Gateway station built and free them from having the station at the yard.  

[kermit]

I was at a conference earlier in the week and interacted with two All Aboard Florida (Brightline) folks. They are _very_ interested in the Charlotte to Atlanta route (don't take this as a commitment, it was just conference chatting but I was surprised by their enthusiasm). 

I also heard a presentation from GA DOT who have been studying route alternatives for CLT-ATL. The Crescent (e.g. existing) route is obviously the cheapest, but its slow speed means it has (by far) the lowest ridership. The I-85 median route is the most expensive but its higher speed (something like 150mph) and route through all the population centers meant the highest ridership. The greenfield route (mostly South of I-85) had the highest speeds (true HSR) but its rural route translated to lower ridership than the I-85 option. In the absence of true HSR plans in NC I can't see that option getting much traction. 

All CLT-ATL route options are planned to terminate at Hartsfield.

 

[Dale]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

I was at a conference earlier in the week and interacted with two All Aboard Florida (Brightline) folks. They are _very_ interested in the Charlotte to Atlanta route (don't take this as a commitment, it was just conference chatting but I was surprised by their enthusiasm). 

I also heard a presentation from GA DOT who have been studying route alternatives for CLT-ATL. The Crescent (e.g. existing) route is obviously the cheapest, but its slow speed means it has (by far) the lowest ridership. The I-85 median route is the most expensive but its higher speed (something like 150mph) and route through all the population centers meant the highest ridership. The greenfield route (mostly South of I-85) had the highest speeds (true HSR) but its rural route translated to lower ridership than the I-85 option. In the absence of true HSR plans in NC I can't see that option getting much traction. 

All CLT-ATL route options are planned to terminate at Hartsfield.

 

I know they're raring to go on extensions to Tampa and Orlando.  If Charlotte were to get Brightline, betcha by golly they'd build apartments, office and retail.

d

[PuppiesandKittens]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

I was at a conference earlier in the week and interacted with two All Aboard Florida (Brightline) folks. They are _very_ interested in the Charlotte to Atlanta route (don't take this as a commitment, it was just conference chatting but I was surprised by their enthusiasm). 

I also heard a presentation from GA DOT who have been studying route alternatives for CLT-ATL. The Crescent (e.g. existing) route is obviously the cheapest, but its slow speed means it has (by far) the lowest ridership. The I-85 median route is the most expensive but its higher speed (something like 150mph) and route through all the population centers meant the highest ridership. The greenfield route (mostly South of I-85) had the highest speeds (true HSR) but its rural route translated to lower ridership than the I-85 option. In the absence of true HSR plans in NC I can't see that option getting much traction. 

All CLT-ATL route options are planned to terminate at Hartsfield.

 

Brightline would be the best option here, and a reasonable one.

If you look at population density, the Piedmont (geographical) corridor is a very heavily populated one, kind of like the Northeast Corridor.  Plus there is rapid population growth and lots of opportunity to make money in real estate.

Yet there is little alternative to highway travel along the corridor, and SC and GA do virtually nothing for rail.

If the Brightline business model is feasible (a big IF), then Atlanta-Charlotte would be a great place for it.

[kermit]

4 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

If the Brightline business model is feasible (a big IF), then Atlanta-Charlotte would be a great place for it.

That is the big problem. Their business model in Florida mostly involves existing track (which their firm owned recently) which is in good shape, fast and generally below capacity. They also owned a crapload of downtown real estate which was acquired many many years ago and was ripe for development. Brightline would have none of these advantages outside of Florida and its hard to believe that the company could make multiple billions in capital costs necessary for CLT-ATL pencil out.

Although they were remarkably optimistic earlier this week....

[Richhamleigh, DC]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

I was at a conference earlier in the week and interacted with two All Aboard Florida (Brightline) folks. They are _very_ interested in the Charlotte to Atlanta route (don't take this as a commitment, it was just conference chatting but I was surprised by their enthusiasm). 

I also heard a presentation from GA DOT who have been studying route alternatives for CLT-ATL. The Crescent (e.g. existing) route is obviously the cheapest, but its slow speed means it has (by far) the lowest ridership. The I-85 median route is the most expensive but its higher speed (something like 150mph) and route through all the population centers meant the highest ridership. The greenfield route (mostly South of I-85) had the highest speeds (true HSR) but its rural route translated to lower ridership than the I-85 option. In the absence of true HSR plans in NC I can't see that option getting much traction. 

All CLT-ATL route options are planned to terminate at Hartsfield.

 

There are plans for HSR in NC that don't include bowing to Georgia.  The state has made initial investments in planning and design and actual physical improvements to the corridor that links Charlotte and Raleigh with Richmond, DC and the Northeast.  Having a rail line end at Georgia's airport gives GA just that much more of edge over NC and Charlotte to remain a provincial cowtown in the shadow of the greedy behemoth to our South.  No thanks.  In the competitive world of city-states, Georgia is not our friend.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Phillydog

[PuppiesandKittens]

11 hours ago, kermit said:

That is the big problem. Their business model in Florida mostly involves existing track (which their firm owned recently) which is in good shape, fast and generally below capacity. They also owned a crapload of downtown real estate which was acquired many many years ago and was ripe for development. Brightline would have none of these advantages outside of Florida and its hard to believe that the company could make multiple billions in capital costs necessary for CLT-ATL pencil out.

Although they were remarkably optimistic earlier this week....

Great points.  So it would take Norfolk Southern to replicate the Brightline model, since NS owns (or has rights to) the tracks.  I wonder how much real estate NS owns in the Piedmont.  I also wonder if the Charlotte and Raleigh stations being government-owned would significantly reduce the likelihood of a private company replicating the Brightline business model, since it seems to have such a strong real estate development focus and thus wouldn't be able to do much in those two cities.

[orulz]

I would like to see any Atlanta-Charlotte trains operated as an extension of NC's Piedmont service. You are right that NCRR owns the tracks and leases the rights to Norfolk Southern. The current lease extends until 2029 with the right to renew for 15 more years until 2044. The lease includes a provision that NC can run passenger trains on the tracks as long as they don't interfere with Norfolk Southern's freight operations.

NC currently pays Amtrak to run the Piedmont but I doubt there's a provision in the lease specifying Amtrak as the sole operator. If I'm right, there's no reason Brightline couldn't run it instead.  Any improvements (curve realignments, double track, etc) could be undertaken as a PPP between NC and Brightline. Overall I think the fact that NC owns the corridor rather than NS works strongly in our favor and would be the key to making it work.

Brightline is also building a greenfield HSR line from the Space Coast to Orlando, and possibly extending it to Tampa; assuming they do well at this project it would make them an ideal partner to build the HSR line from Raleigh to Richmond in the future. Virginia is getting pretty close to buying their portion of the right-of-way for this project from CSX.

[Guest]

Finally took the train from Charlotte to Raleigh. Of course our train station is miserable, the lobby not so bad per say. It's the concrete tunnel that you have to walk through to board that makes me scratch my head. Location is terrible too, but that's getting fixed.

The state really needs to shave off about 30-40 minutes travel time to Raleigh, then you'd see ridership rise pretty quickly. Shouldn't take longer than a car.

[dubone]

On 3/28/2018 at 7:59 PM, kermit said:

I was at a conference earlier in the week and interacted with two All Aboard Florida (Brightline) folks. They are _very_ interested in the Charlotte to Atlanta route (don't take this as a commitment, it was just conference chatting but I was surprised by their enthusiasm). 

I also heard a presentation from GA DOT who have been studying route alternatives for CLT-ATL. The Crescent (e.g. existing) route is obviously the cheapest, but its slow speed means it has (by far) the lowest ridership. The I-85 median route is the most expensive but its higher speed (something like 150mph) and route through all the population centers meant the highest ridership. The greenfield route (mostly South of I-85) had the highest speeds (true HSR) but its rural route translated to lower ridership than the I-85 option. In the absence of true HSR plans in NC I can't see that option getting much traction. 

All CLT-ATL route options are planned to terminate at Hartsfield.

 

That would be truly awesome if we get them funding a private corridor like they are in south FL. 

 

The 85 Median would not likely be feasible.   SC is already in the process of widening 85 from Spartanburg to Gaffney and they are surely not planning for a train down the center.   

 

If they are doing a net-new corridor, I would love to see them consider an unusual route from Charlotte to Atlanta that actually goes a bit longer through Columbia and Augusta.   It would add 20% more distance (310 vs 260 miles) from Charlotte to Atlanta, but with a Charleston Spur, you'd have Charlotte-Atlanta, Charlotte-Charleston, and Atlanta-Augusta-Charleston routes that would all seem like good markets for riders that would work very well.   Then a connection through Savannah would connect to Brightline's planned Jacksonville line.  

[orulz]

Trying to fit Columbia on the Charlotte-Atlanta route is a bad idea IMO. You skip Upstate SC which is a larger metro than Columbia and add way too many miles.

Basically extending the NEC to Atlanta (through Charlotte) is the best plan for true HSR.

[kermit]

On 3/28/2018 at 7:59 PM, kermit said:

I also heard a presentation from GA DOT who have been studying route alternatives for CLT-ATL. The Crescent (e.g. existing) route is obviously the cheapest, but its slow speed means it has (by far) the lowest ridership. The I-85 median route is the most expensive but its higher speed (something like 150mph) and route through all the population centers meant the highest ridership. The greenfield route (mostly South of I-85) had the highest speeds (true HSR) but its rural route translated to lower ridership than the I-85 option. In the absence of true HSR plans in NC I can't see that option getting much traction. 

All CLT-ATL route options are planned to terminate at Hartsfield.

Here is a copy of the GA Dot presentaiton which included some discussion of alternatives analysis of Charlotte to Atlanta: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/5b8ac04d-a1a2-4875-952b-66a29b4b6d4e/downloads/1ca8446if_759857.pdf

There is some bonus info on Atl-Chattanooga at the end of the presentation

[deleted]

So the parking lot next to Greyhound is now closed.  Heavy equipment is on the other side of Trade.  Is this more imminent than I thought or is this an interim step that focuses strictly on track work (or Gold Line related)?

Edit: I suppose the lot could be used for staging for the NWR project opposite Trade.

Edited April 5, 2018 by JBS

[uptownliving]

They are going to build a temporary Greyhound station there and tear down the existing station.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Man checkout that sweet building in the background. 

[SentioVenia]

19 hours ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

Man checkout that sweet building in the background. 

Yeah, someone should really think about saving it.