Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[KJHburg]

Is this the temporary bus station or what?  Along W 4th St.  from a foggy today. 

[Guest]

Is this the temporary bus station or what?  Along W 4th St.  from a foggy today. 

Yes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[kermit]

Here is the other end of the Gateway track project, this was taken at the Carson off ramp from the Belk (the bridge at the top of the photo is the Belk). This is the connection between the Gateway station tracks to the passenger equipment yard at Summit / Palmer. Sorry about the afternoon shadow lighting but you can see that grading has been completed under the bridge and they are preparing to lay welded rail up to the station site (rail can be seen stacked to the left) from the service yard entrance tracks.  The big news here is that this basically confirms that passenger equipment will be able to move between Gateway and the service yard without using the NS freight tracks (this is a big deal for increasing the frequency of passenger service).

A quick glimpse of the bridge projects for the tracks around 5th-6th streets indicate that they are making very good progress.

Edited January 1, 2019 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

I'm not too well versed with Rail/Station Components but what Phase noted below will have the most visible changes to the average bystander and which will actually have things ready to begin passenger service (Rail/Intercity Bus)?  I got this Info from Wikipedia 

 

 

Phase 1

At an estimate cost of $91.3 million (2017 dollars), the first phase has two parts: 

• 1A) Construct track, structures, and signals to support two new station tracks; construct retaining wall/earthwork; construct temporary intercity bus facility.
• 1B) Construct rail platform and canopy for passenger loading/unloading.

This phase is fully funded with an anticipated construction period is 2018 to 2021.^[1][10]

Phase 2

At an estimate cost of $49.9 million (2017 dollars), the second phase has two parts:

• 2A) Construct platform canopy; construct station building (interim condition) with full construction of concourse level and core and shell only for plaza and mezzanine levels; construct temporary surface parking and passenger drop-off area.
• 2B) Decommission existing Amtrak station on North Tryon Street.

This phase is partially funded with capital carryover from phase 1. The anticipated construction period is 2019 to 2022.^[1][10]

Phase 3

At an estimate cost of $658.9 million (2017 dollars, the third phase has three parts:

• 3A) Construct greenway connection with bridge over Fourth Street, vertical circulation and retaining walls; construct bus facility, which includes structured parking and residential over retail wrapping garage (facility will serve as temporary parking for rail passengers till phase 3B is completed).
• 3B) Complete upper section of station building; extend greenway with bridge over Trade Street, vertical circulation and retaining walls; extend greenway to Bank of America Stadium; construct private development around station.
• 3C) Construct remote properties between Fifth and Seventh Streets; extend greenway to Ninth Street.

This phase is currently not funded, but is expected to be depended mostly from private developers. The anticipated construction period is 2020 to 2024.^[1]

 

 

[kermit]

^ Phase 1 will be largely invisible (its all elevated track work). The platform canopy will be the only thing visible to people on the ground

Phase 2 should feature an actual working train station in Uptown (I don't think design has been finalized)

Phase 3 is new tall buildings (but if it all gets done by 2024 I'll eat my transit pass)

[Hushpuppy321]

17 hours ago, kermit said:

^ Phase 1 will be largely invisible (its all elevated track work). The platform canopy will be the only thing visible to people on the ground

Phase 2 should feature an actual working train station in Uptown (I don't think design has been finalized)

Phase 3 is new tall buildings (but if it all gets done by 2024 I'll eat my transit pass)

Thanks for the clarity.  I know Raleigh now has a working Gateway type Station but how is there's different if any from what Charlotte is trying to do?  Also - Did they get any State / Federal assistance?  I'll look up what I can online - Just seems like Charlotte isn't getting much financial help (other than Phase 1)

[dubone]

20 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Thanks for the clarity.  I know Raleigh now has a working Gateway type Station but how is there's different if any from what Charlotte is trying to do?  Also - Did they get any State / Federal assistance?  I'll look up what I can online - Just seems like Charlotte isn't getting much financial help (other than Phase 1)

The lasting grudge I keep is that the Raleigh station project got the federal stimulus funds from the Mainline Grade Separation project by ADM/ Music Factory when the railroads decided they didn't want to do it all.  our 

I know it was a matter of shovel-readiness and the CGS had not yet been scaled way down yet, so that was the reason, but it seems that NCDOT should have made CGS whole with a similar amount of funds that would have had to go to Raleigh Union eventually to now be building the Phase II with that money.     So uptown Charlotte missed out on the huge noise pollution and railroad efficiency boosts the Mainline Grade Separation would have given us, and that funding shifted over to Raleigh and basically never came back in kind.  

The Phase I funding was basically everything Charlotte had already been granted and was sitting waiting until they found a new way to phase it.  

The Mainline Separation project is listed in a way that implies permanent cancelation.  Basically the railroads do not want the inconvenience and scheduling complications during construction, even if they benefit in the long run.  

"Railroads currently not interested in pursuing project. Would lower CSXT mainline track under Norfolk Southern mainline track. Eliminates several at grade street crossings at CSXT and NS tracks. Improves rail operations thru Charlotte. Reduction of at grade crossings will significantly reduce locomotive horn blowing. Possible relocation of ADM mill."

https://charlottenc.gov/Projects/Documents/CharlotteRailroadProjectsUpdate.pdf

 

But all that said, I have always believed Charlotte and Raleigh grow together, so I am happy they have a station that is the majority destination for those coming and going to our planned CGS.  Now let's hope we get some investment to make it finally happen.  

 

[kermit]

On 1/2/2019 at 10:46 AM, Hushpuppy321 said:

Thanks for the clarity.  I know Raleigh now has a working Gateway type Station but how is there's different if any from what Charlotte is trying to do?  Also - Did they get any State / Federal assistance?  I'll look up what I can online - Just seems like Charlotte isn't getting much financial help (other than Phase 1)

Without straying into equity issues Dubone is right, Raleigh Union Station received large chunks of federal stimulous funds  ($50 millionish?) as well as a $25(?) million TIGER grant), state (NCDOT contributed for track work and signals) and city funds (the city of Raleigh footed some large overage charges in addition to some substantial ($25 million?) initial contributions). 

IMO the RUS and CLT Gateway projects are not directly comparable. RUS involved the heavy renovation of an existing building that was in an industrial and underused portion of downtown Raleigh. While there were some substantial track and signal modifications required there is MUCH less freight traffic moving past RUS than CLT Gateway and nearly all of the track work was done at grade (rather than on elevated tracks) -- so I believe RUS trackwork was less costly than what we will see here. Most importantly the RUS project was a stand alone project in a largely neglected portion of downtown Raleigh, it was not bundled with large-scale property redevelopment adjacent to the station (although that has happened). 

Charlotte Gateway is intended to anchor a new neighborhood (more or less) near the middle of downtown Charlotte. While the station itself will be comparable to RUS, the stuff around it (including a new bus station) means CLT Gateway will have lots more private sector partners. In addition its sits on Norfolk Southern owned tracks (Raleigh is (mostly) on NCRR tracks) so private RR ownership will complicate CLT further.

Edited January 6, 2019 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

17 minutes ago, kermit said:

Without straying into equity issues Dubone is right, Raleigh Union Station received large chunks of federal (a portion of the reallocated ARRA stimulus funds as well as a $25(?) million TIGER grant), state (NCDOT contributed) and city funds (the city of Raleigh footed some large overage charges in addition to some substantial contributions). 

IMO the RUS and CLT Gateway projects are not directly comparable. RUS involved the heavy renovation of an existing building that was in an industrial and underused portion of downtown Raleigh. While there were some substantial track and signal modifications required there is MUCH less freight traffic moving past RUS than CLT Gateway and nearly all of the track work was done at grade (rather than on elevated tracks) -- so I believe RUS trackwork was less costly than what we will see here. Most importantly the RUS project was a stand alone project, it was not bundled with large-scale property redevelopment adjacent to the station. 

Charlotte Gateway is intended to anchor a new neighborhood (more or less) near the middle of downtown Charlotte. While the station itself will be comparable to RUS, the stuff around it (including a new bus station) means CLT Gateway will have lots more private sector partners. 

So CLT Gateway plan is banking on private industry wanting to develop properties nearby Intercity/Local City bus and rail terminal.  I do understand how Transit can change a city (LRT/Streetcar) - But I'm just not totally sold on the Amtrak/Greyhound/CATS Bus thing.  Usually some prefer to stay away from areas heavy in that type of Transit.  I guess we'll see in the next decade.

[kermit]

4 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

So CLT Gateway plan is banking on private industry wanting to develop properties nearby Intercity/Local City bus and rail terminal.  I do understand how Transit can change a city (LRT/Streetcar) - But I'm just not totally sold on the Amtrak/Greyhound/CATS Bus thing.  Usually some prefer to stay away from areas heavy in that type of Transit.  I guess we'll see in the next decade.

One of the original purposes of CLT Gateway was to serve as the commuter rail (Red Line) terminus in Charlotte. While the red line appears to be very dead, commuter rail service between downtown Charlotte and a) Salisbury is (IMO) likely; b) Kings Mountain is (IMO) less likely and c) Rock Hill and Clover (and perhaps Columbia) is (IMO) moderately likely in 20 years time.

I'll admit to being an optimist about rail transport but I think it is better to think of Amtrak service to CLT Gateway as similar to what Amtrak has on the NE Corridor (well, Richmond to DC may be a better analogy). There will be as many as 14 intercity trains per day (in each direction) between CLT and Raleigh (with about half continuing to DC) once SEHSR gets completed (Amazon's Crystal City location will help get this project moving again). I can also imagine the entire CLT-GSO-RGH region developing robust commuter rail service making the urban region a single labor market.

TLDR: there will be lots of affluent people using Gateway station to begin and end rail trips within the next two decades (it will very likely be the busiest rail station south of DC) . Combined with streetcar and Silver / West line service Gateway will be a very busy place.

Edited January 2, 2019 by kermit

[southslider]

^Besides, the Ritz is located by the CTC.

[Dale]

6 hours ago, kermit said:

One of the original purposes of CLT Gateway was to serve as the commuter rail (Red Line) terminus in Charlotte. While the red line appears to be very dead, commuter rail service between downtown Charlotte and a) Salisbury is (IMO) likely; b) Kings Mountain is (IMO) less likely and c) Rock Hill and Clover (and perhaps Columbia) is (IMO) moderately likely in 20 years time.

I'll admit to being an optimist about rail transport but I think it is better to think of Amtrak service to CLT Gateway as similar to what Amtrak has on the NE Corridor (well, Richmond to DC may be a better analogy). There will be as many as 14 intercity trains per day (in each direction) between CLT and Raleigh (with about half continuing to DC) once SEHSR gets completed (Amazon's Crystal City location will help get this project moving again). I can also imagine the entire CLT-GSO-RGH region developing robust commuter rail service making the urban region a single labor market.

TLDR: there will be lots of affluent people using Gateway station to begin and end rail trips within the next two decades (it will very likely be the busiest rail station south of DC) . Combined with streetcar and Silver / West line service Gateway will be a very busy place.

Brightline ?

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, Dale said:

Brightline ?

Assuming they get the Orlando and Tampa segments the Miami station may be busier than CLT. But if SEHSR shakes out near its planned capacity and Charlotte gets some commuter rail (probably to Salisbury) then it will be a close race in terms of passengers.

Also don't forget that if Brightline can pull off Florida then CLT-ATL service will be on their agenda.

[Dale]

7 minutes ago, kermit said:

Assuming they get the Orlando and Tampa segments the Miami station may be busier than CLT. But if SEHSR shakes out near its planned capacity and Charlotte gets some commuter rail (probably to Salisbury) then it will be a close race in terms of passengers.

Also don't forget that if Brightline can pull off Florida then CLT-ATL service will be on their agenda.

I can report that, never mind completing Miami to Orlando, they are now pursuing an aggressive timeline on Orlando to Tampa. 

And whereas LRT is in no way convenient for me, I’d definitely go out of my way to ride fast rail to Atlanta.

[Desert Power]

9 hours ago, kermit said:

 

TLDR: there will be lots of affluent people using Gateway station to begin and end rail trips within the next two decades. Combined with streetcar and Silver / West line service Gatway will be a very busy place.

Doubtful

[15895]

5 minutes ago, Desert Power said:

Doubtful

It could be but it will be 100% dependent on brand new development IMO. A stonewall 2.0 

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Desert Power said:

Doubtful

Yea maybe.

Or we could work from some actual estimates:

• SEHSR ridership forecast estimates Charlotte trains will carry a bit more than 2.5 million passengers per year in 2040  (Charlotte boardings might be 40% of that, roughly 3,000 per day)
• Commuter rail to Salisbury / Concord might generate 4,000 riders per day
• Silver / West LRT: roughly 25,000 per day (not all will use Gateway)
• Gold Line: 5,000 per day (I dunno, just guessing here)

Based on these estimates (some official, some not) somewhere around 37,000 people per day will likely pass through Gateway. (about 2,000 people per hour over an 18 hour day — roughly the same capacity as an interstate highway lane)

https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/Rail-Division-Resources/Documents/2015 SEHSR FEIS - Appendix C.pdf

Edited January 3, 2019 by kermit

[atlrvr]

Saw this parked at the end of 10th St.  Have never seen the locomotive so I googled it and see it's a one-off heritage paint scheme that Norfolk & Southern did.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginian_Railway

It looked really sharp in person, though my photo doesn't do it justice.

 

 

[videtur quam contuor]

A touch off topic, but I was in Pinehurst Christmas week and saw several of these beauties:

http://www.acwr.com/rolling-stock/locomotives

Pinehurst at Christmas is just lovely and romantic. The village is a Hallmark Movie set come to life. Carriage rides from the hotel, cute shops, decorations everywhere, carolers. If there is no bed dancing with your partner there then set him/her free.

[KJHburg]

Friend took this photo yesterday of the new temporary bus station.  He was asking me what it was.  Too bad the new station can't be built this fast. 

[SgtCampsalot]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Friend took this photo yesterday of the new temporary bus station.  He was asking me what it was.  Too bad the new station can't be built this fast. 

Aawww it's so cute..

This reminds me of the summer after I graduated high school I rode a greyhound bus back from Raleigh and arrived in Charlotte at 3:00 or 4:00am (what is a bus trip without an unnatural arrival time?).

I didn't plan ahead enough to ask for a ride so I had to walk from Uptown to Matthews.

I passed the then-worksite of the Epicentre and, having no experience in massive projects, I though I was looking into the pit of Mordor; the site had been dug deep into the Earth and I couldn't even see the bottom. In the dead stillness of the night, with not a peep in Uptown, and a gaping maw in front of me with all the work lights still on to illuminate just how deep it was, I felt like I was standing at the edge of the World. I had never felt so small. I always think if that feeling when I go to the Epicentre these days.

Edited January 12, 2019 by SgtCampsalot

[videtur quam contuor]

You mentioned this epic journey once quite some time ago on the site. I recall.

[SgtCampsalot]

1 hour ago, tarhoosier said:

You mentioned this epic journey once quite some time ago on the site. I recall.

 I think you're right. Chalk it up with the poster [you?] whose car broke down on Dunbar St  in the middle of the night. 

#UPstories #UPlatewithUP

[videtur quam contuor]

Yup, me on Dunbar. Not broke down, out of gas at midnight or so on Saturday. 15 minutes walk from the house. Sunday recovery with the House of Prayer services in my ears.

Your walk from the station to Matthews is an 1880's tale.

Any man worth his underwear has a story something like this of poor planning, overconfidence, stupidity, and the actions of a yoof.

[SgtCampsalot]

2 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

Any man worth his underwear has a story something like this of poor planning, overconfidence, stupidity, and the actions of a yoof.