Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[Yeahdoug]

Union Station is really nice. If Charlotte can replicate even 75% of that it’d be great. They’ve made it more than just a train station. The food, coffee shop, hotel. Makes you forget the Amtrak part is even there. It’s got a great vibe and is a nice place to hang out. 

[stiluvclt]

Even if they could replicate the former train station with that old tower (found in that beautiful photo book of old Charlotte) that was torn down in the early 60s.....that would look fantastic!

[kermit]

10 minutes ago, stiluvclt said:

Even if they could replicate the former train station with that old tower (found in that beautiful photo book of old Charlotte) that was torn down in the early 60s.....that would look fantastic!

It was a pretty great station.  A nod to the style and tower would be fantastic, but I don't have my hopes up for it.

As Orluz pointed out in the past, the station is no longer with us because the City and Southern RR decided to elevate the mainline tracks through downtown which made it impractical to modify the station. That is how we ended up with our current crapshack.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Totally Jealous of Denver Union Station.  They have really done a good comprehensive job making that the premiere Multi-Modal Station for that City.  I guess they benefit from being the only Major City in that State as well as the Capital.  
 

Hopefully Charlotte Gateway will turn out nice once Phase III is done in 2024/2025.

2028/29 I'd call it.

[videtur quam contuor]

So people may understand the term, Union Station meant that two or more train companies operated out of the same location. Ticketing, transfers and passengers and freight were served by a single building and dock. This was uncommon early in the rail system as each line jealously guarded access to its tracks, ticketing, and service. To transfer to another line in a city one had to walk or ride elsewhere. Indianapolis was the first to build a union station as we know it now. The term is less meaningful now that Amtrak is the single operator for passengers. Yet the grandest buildings from the past were such stations meant to communicate "arrival" in the strongest terms.  Beaux Arts and Romanesque temples of the finest kind.

Charlotte had two stations that I know of, the Southern, photo above, and the Atlantic Coast Line at 13th Street and North Tryon, for several years the homeless kitchen (or something). Charlotte had no union station.

This is the Union Station in Indianapolis from 1888 that replaced the earliest one from 1853. It is a glorious building but successful reuse is difficult to create when the train and bus passengers are all that is left. Kansas City and Denver have been relatively successful in repurposing their union stations for multi-modal transit centers, public attractions, movie theaters, hotels and other uses. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_Union_Station

Edited April 13, 2020 by tarhoosier

[kermit]

On 4/13/2020 at 1:49 PM, tarhoosier said:

...

Charlotte had two stations that I know of, the Southern, photo above, and the Atlantic Coast Line at 13th Street and North Tryon, for several years the homeless kitchen (or something). Charlotte had no union station.

This is the Union Station in Indianapolis from 1888 that replaced the earliest one from 1853. It is a glorious building but successful reuse is difficult to create when the train and bus passengers are all that is left. Kansas City and Denver have been relatively successful in repurposing their union stations for multi-modal transit centers, public attractions, movie theaters, hotels and other uses. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_Union_Station

Apologies for the nitpick, I am going to hate myself after this:  The North Tryon station was built by the Seaboard Air Line. Seaboard RR merged with the Atlantic Coast Line RR (headquartered in Wilmington until 1960) in 1967 to form the Seaboard Coast Line RR.  Unrelated to Charlotte, this merger was the event that caused the Port of Wilmington to be served by just a single RR -- creating a huge (and lasting) competitive disadvantage for the port. Seaboard Coast Line and the Chessie System merged in 1980 to create CSX.

I spent a glorious pre-dawn morning in the Indianapolis Union Station a few years ago waiting to board a train to Chicago. The bulk of the station is/was a really nice looking Crown Plaza Hotel. Unfortunately passenger waiting areas were moved to a remarkably dark, all brick (but not the good kind) space beneath the tracks -- a spectacular Union station has been transformed (for passengers) into a hole (the hotel did look nice). 

Edited April 14, 2020 by kermit

[uptownliving]

Since NCDOT is projecting $300M decrease in their budget due to less driving, they are cutting projects left and right. One of the projects on the chopping block is the Wye at Charlotte Junction which is needed to turn the passenger trains around at the new Charlotte Gateway Station. IF this is not funded soon we could end up with a new train station that has no trains.

[kermit]

3 hours ago, uptownliving said:

Since NCDOT is projecting $300M decrease in their budget due to less driving, they are cutting projects left and right. One of the projects on the chopping block is the Wye at Charlotte Junction which is needed to turn the passenger trains around at the new Charlotte Gateway Station. IF this is not funded soon we could end up with a new train station that has no trains.

Is the wye going to be -at- the junction (and thus using CSX tracks?) or is it going to rebuild the old wye at the NS Liddell shops? Either way seems like passenger equipment will foul CSX a bunch more.

I also thought NCDOT started running everything push-pull a couple of years ago to avoid the need for a turn?

Edited April 22, 2020 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

2 hours ago, uptownliving said:

Since NCDOT is projecting $300M decrease in their budget due to less driving, they are cutting projects left and right. One of the projects on the chopping block is the Wye at Charlotte Junction which is needed to turn the passenger trains around at the new Charlotte Gateway Station. IF this is not funded soon we could end up with a new train station that has no trains.

Hopefully that issue precludes NCDOT from cutting funds for the Wye but I do understand that during these financially tight times nothing is safe...

[tozmervo]

The shoulder hardening on 77 was on the list of postponed projects. Let's hope that quietly gets cancelled - it's a ludicrous use of NCDOT money.

[ajfunder]

13 hours ago, kermit said:

Is the wye going to be -at- the junction (and thus using CSX tracks?) or is it going to rebuild the old wye at the NS Liddell shops? Either way seems like passenger equipment will foul CSX a bunch more.

I also thought NCDOT started running everything push-pull a couple of years ago to avoid the need for a turn?

You have your junctions confused. Charlotte Junction is out towards the Airport along Wilkinson where the NS Charlotte District mainline and R-line towards Columbia split. The diamond/junction with CSX (downtown) is called Graham Interlocking. There are no plans for a wye there. 

NCDOT also wants a wye at Charlotte Junction so intermodal trains can come off the R-line and into the intermodal facility without making a reverse move.

NCDOT operates all their trains except for the Carolinian push-pull so I really don't think it will be a huge loss for passenger rail. The wye is more of a freight project to compliment the intermodal facility. It would not be hard to make the Carolinian train push-pull in the future and would ultimately be cheaper. The Crescent runs through and doesn't change directions so that is not an issue either.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by ajfunder

[Hushpuppy321]

On 4/22/2020 at 2:04 PM, tozmervo said:

The shoulder hardening on 77 was on the list of postponed projects. Let's hope that quietly gets cancelled - it's a ludicrous use of NCDOT money.

Your wish has come true - the $47 Million Shoulder Lanes has been eliminated/postponed several years due to the Budget Crunch.  Also - The $8.6 Million Charlotte Wye (Rail) has also been postponed/eliminated several years too.

[tozmervo]

Well that's not great. 

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2020/2020-05-13-piedmont-service.aspx

[kermit]

4 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Well that's not great. 

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2020/2020-05-13-piedmont-service.aspx

Its not, but its really just a nominal change from the current setup. The Carolinian has been suspended since April 6 and NCDOT has been running just one Piedmont a day between Charlotte and Raleigh. This replaces the single Piedmont with the Carolinian which at least offers service to points North of Raleigh.

tldr: same number of trains per day plus restored corridor service.

Edit: My bad, the Carolinian will run, but only between Charlotte and Raleigh for the time being according to the Observer.

Quote

The state and Amtrak also suspended the Carolinian train that runs between Charlotte and New York City, with stops in the Triangle, because of low demand. The Carolinian will resume daily operations on Monday, May 18, but only between Charlotte and Raleigh. Amtrak and NCDOT hope to extend Carolinian service at least to Washington, D.C., sometime in June, said Jason Orthner, director of the Rail Division.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article242698691.html

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by kermit

[kermit]

So CBJ says the project is now officially a go with Charlotte Gateway Partners, but I thought we knew that already.

 

Quote

The Charlotte Business Journal has learned the Charlotte Gateway Steering Committee voted in March to begin exclusive negotiations with Charlotte Gateway Partners LLC for the project after seeking bids in a request for qualifications and request for proposals last year. The committee shortlisted three groups in the fall.

...

According to steering committee meeting minutes obtained by the CBJ, the group was selected because of the team’s approach, integration of uses and a willingness to develop the entire site.

...

Darryl Dewberry, chairman and CEO of The Spectrum Cos., said the proposal is a “very mixed-use” project, with hospitality, retail, office and residential development in addition to open space — which he described as an “urban garden” — integrated within several blocks.

The article also says that the NCDOT Charlotte Junction wye project has been delayed one year and is now scheduled for completion in 2022.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2020/06/04/developer-finally-on-board-for-gateway-station.html

Edited June 4, 2020 by kermit

[Guest]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

So CBJ says the project is now officially a go with Charlotte Gateway Partners, but I thought we knew that already.

 

The article also says that the NCDOT Charlotte Junction wye project has been delayed one year and is now scheduled for completion in 2022.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2020/06/04/developer-finally-on-board-for-gateway-station.html

What I have seen represents the densest and most ambitious project in the history of Charlotte. 

[Cadi40]

19 hours ago, Tyree Ricardo said:

What I have seen represents the densest and most ambitious project in the history of Charlotte. 

I honestly would’ve rather not heard that because I’m definitely not going to stop thinking about it. 

[dubone]

I'm very excited about the renderings seen so far, that hopefully Spectrum is going for a higher quality of development.   I am very skeptical about the ability of Smith Street to develop properly with out some acquisition of one or two blocks between Smith and Graham.    It is exciting to see private money step in here to partner with the public money in progress.   I'm sure the project will be better than originally imagined with the momentum in the Bearden area, and the new progress with Tepper around the stadium. 

I desperately hope for some redevelopment along Graham further north, including the surface parking lot for culinary students at Trade and Graham, the McCarthy Tire block that has been sold, and the strip mall at 9th and Graham, and the Preferred parking lot next to Vue.   

Northwood is looking like a total shortsighted fool to only build a midrise on their prime land, but hopefully the density builds up around them and puts them to shame. 

[Yeahdoug]

The trade st. Baptist church will probably sell out at some point and that’s a huge lot. 
 

Don’t forget the gateway entertainment area along cedar where the practice fields are... the whole area will be much different in 10 years! I only wish it could all happen in 5.  
 

 

[Blue_Devil]

Any renders to share : )-

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

On 6/5/2020 at 1:02 PM, dubone said:

Northwood is looking like a total shortsighted fool to only build a midrise on their prime land, but hopefully the density builds up around them and puts them to shame. 

I agree, but it's not as bad as the Circa apartments (five stories and zero retail).  If this was Sim City, Circa and that power substation would have been razed yesterday. 

[Guest]

On 6/7/2020 at 4:19 PM, Seabrooke said:

Edit: apparently I am developing Alzheimer’s and forgot seeing these lol. Old news but oh well, I’ll leave them here 

It will look vastly more big city :-) Think Essex Crossings only denser, taller,  and multimodal. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Guest

[15895]

1 hour ago, Tyree Ricardo said:

It will look vastly more big city :-) Think Essex Crossings only denser, taller,  and multimodal. 

 

I know you're generally right, but I have zero hope that anything soon will be built other than the train station and maybe a 5 floor apartment building within a few blocks of it. 

 

These vision plans seem to never become reality (unless split up like 3rd ward was with Novare, or Levine who sold off some of his land). It seems more implausible that a "denser/taller" would come fruition at that.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

I know you're generally right, but I have zero hope that anything soon will be built other than the train station and maybe a 5 floor apartment building within a few blocks of it. 

 

These vision plans seem to never become reality (unless split up like 3rd ward was with Novare, or Levine who sold off some of his land). It seems more implausible that a "denser/taller" would come fruition at that.

The way its structured there its no possible way a 5 floor apartment building would be viable. If that's whats viable, then there is no train station.The intention is building high density to leverage and subsidize building a train station. Yes its probably pie in the sky, especially with so much turmoil.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Guest

[Norm2]

Hopefully this will come to fruition, it has been a very long time....