Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[videtur quam contuor]

Welcome GuitarHeel and join the fray.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, GuiTarHeel said:

Long time lurker here... anyone know how many more upgrades are in the works in the short term for the Raleigh to Charlotte rail corridor (grade separations, double tracking, etc.)? Seems like a lot of the major projects in the Triangle area are mostly done now. I know there are long term plans for the SEHSR project, but is it anticipated that the travel time by train from Raleigh to Charlotte will have been reduced significantly by the time gateway station is open? I’ve looked for info on this but everything I’ve found is really out of date.

Welcome!

I don’t know of any significant NCRR upgrades in the works (or on the horizon) between CLT and Greensboro (Other than Gateway station and some associated track work in that area). We can expect some double tracking and new siding construction in Wake, Durham and Orange counties for Triangle commuter rail which is part of the Triangle transit plan (and mostly paid for by their local transit tax). I have heard very few details about the commuter rail part of the transit plan so far, but it is in the works. 

Unfortunately the Triangle projects are unlikely to increase speeds on the route (they just add capacity). Baring a large infusion of federal money I don’t think average or top speeds on the NCRR  will change anytime soon. I believe the ARRA funded wave of improvements upgraded track between Charlotte and Greensboro to Class 5 (meaning 90mph top speeds), however it appears that NCDOT was unwilling to pay NS (the current leaseholder) to maintain Class 5 standards, so passenger trains are limited to 80mph currently (this is all supposition on my part based on the original grant and frequent riding — NCDOT has been silent on the speed issue). Best case scenario is a return to Class 5 tracks (this would save a bit less than 10 minutes) plus a reduction in schedule padding (perhaps a saving of 7 minutes) is possible, but the  Gateway station approach will add those minutes back to travel time.

if a billion $ fell from the sky for SEHSR then 110mph service would be possible, possibly cutting about 18 additional minutes from the trip. Several (lots) of millions could be used to convert all platforms to high-level, that might cut 10-12 minutes from run times thanks to shorter dwell (I believe Orluz calculated these high platform numbers here a few years ago)

Having said all that, I would not be too concerned about rail travel times, I-85 is only getting slower so the current travel time by rail will look better every year.

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by kermit

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Nothing "major," but there are several grade separation projects funded in the State Transportation Improvement Program between Charlotte and Raleigh. Those are likely facing delays due to NCDOT's sharp losses in revenue. You can view a map of STIP projects here to get a better idea of where they are (look for the rail icons). We may see 90 mph one day, but I don't think we'll ever get to 110 mph as long as Norfolk Southern shares the same tracks.

As mentioned, high-level boarding would cut a ton of time. As more frequencies are added, it will be interesting to see if an express/limited service is considered. I don't know what the numbers indicate for origins and destinations, but something like Charlotte-Greensboro-Raleigh, or even just Charlotte to Raleigh. I imagine that would cut more time than other expensive upgrades.

Edited June 16, 2020 by cowboy_wilhelm

[XRZ.ME]

Isn't high level platforms just some steel and concrete? This should be relativity cheap to do


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[kermit]

22 minutes ago, XRZ.ME said:

Isn't high level platforms just some steel and concrete? This should be relativity cheap to do


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Unfortunately, as with most things railroad, its not that straightforward. Since NS’s lease says that their ability to move freight must be unimpeded you can’t just pour some new platforms and be done with it. In oder to maintain NS clearances you would need to build a freight bypass of some sort along with the platform. In some locations it would be easy (Salisbury and Kannapolis) and in others considerably more difficult (High Point and Cary). There is also an issue of ADA access and existing elevator shafts and escalators in Greensboro and High Point.

None of this makes the job impossible, but it is more complicated than poring four feet of concrete. 

There are a couple of other alternatives. One is to use mini-high platforms which are set back from the tracks. These require the conductor to put out a bridge plate to cover the gap to the train. They don’t save much time since only one door can be used. Second, new rail cars can Be purchased with gap fillers (metal plates that extend to the setback high platform when the train stops). These are widely used in Europe and on Brightline (I believe), but they are completely incompatible with low platforms, so any train continuing beyond Raleigh or Charlotte (like the Carolinian or Crescent) could not use the high platforms (so NC stations would need to have both)

[KJHburg]

WSOCTV news does a report on the Gateway Station project.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/were-really-excited-buzz-builds-around-proposed-gateway-station-uptown/ISADZOIPMRCLNEYLWNLU5JAW5E/

[Yeahdoug]

8 hours ago, KJHburg said:

WSOCTV news does a report on the Gateway Station project.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/were-really-excited-buzz-builds-around-proposed-gateway-station-uptown/ISADZOIPMRCLNEYLWNLU5JAW5E/

Yikes... they did a great job showing over a year old renderings lol. I was hoping for something new  

[navigator319]

8 hours ago, KJHburg said:

WSOCTV news does a report on the Gateway Station project.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/were-really-excited-buzz-builds-around-proposed-gateway-station-uptown/ISADZOIPMRCLNEYLWNLU5JAW5E/

 

5 minutes ago, Yeahdoug said:

Yikes... they did a great job showing over a year old renderings lol. I was hoping for something new  

What absolute trash 'reporting' .  Everything wrong with local media encapsulated in that segment.  

[Third Strike]

When you look at the amount of current and proposed stations on the NCRR in the Charlotte region, plus the various planned improvements to the corridor, it really makes sense to create a plan for dedicated commuter rail to Concord/Salisbury. 

[Cityplanner]

That's way too many stations overall between Charlotte and Raleigh if the goal is to have a fast train, competitive with driving.

Some of the smaller stations ought to be served only by some, but not all trains.  There could be a mix of locals and expresses on that route, just like the Washington-Atlanta line had until the 1960s.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Cityplanner

[kermit]

 

[Skyybutter]

On 9/7/2020 at 11:19 PM, Third Strike said:

When you look at the amount of current and proposed stations on the NCRR in the Charlotte region, plus the various planned improvements to the corridor, it really makes sense to create a plan for dedicated commuter rail to Concord/Salisbury. 

YES. A Salisbury station would be used by people commuting to jobs (NFL NBA MLS... Uptown events etc.) and Concord station somewhere  at  Dale (exit 60?) or Exit 55 (hwy 73) will save 85 from turning into another version of 85 in Gwinnett Co. with 16 lanes across at spots... no thank you!!

[kermit]

^ Lexington just got a $25 (million, oops) BUILD grant for their new station (plus a grade separation downtown).

https://www.the-dispatch.com/story/news/local/2020/09/11/lexington-receive-25-million-new-train-and-bus-station/3464501001/

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by kermit

[jtmonk]

38 minutes ago, kermit said:

^ Lexington just got a $25 BUILD grant for their new station (plus a grade separation downtown).

https://www.the-dispatch.com/story/news/local/2020/09/11/lexington-receive-25-million-new-train-and-bus-station/3464501001/

 

Thanks for posting.  Our office has been working on this for years and we found out yesterday that we were awarded the grant.  It's very exciting.

[ertley]

30 minutes ago, jtmonk said:

Thanks for posting.  Our office has been working on this for years and we found out yesterday that we were awarded the grant.  It's very exciting.

 

1 hour ago, kermit said:

^ Lexington just got a $25 BUILD grant for their new station (plus a grade separation downtown).

https://www.the-dispatch.com/story/news/local/2020/09/11/lexington-receive-25-million-new-train-and-bus-station/3464501001/

 

That seems like a lot of work for $25 !  

[stiluvclt]

Has anyone seen any S.O.M. rendering upgrades for Gateway, or maybe even H.O.K. stadium renderings? Just wishing.

[nicholas]

On 9/11/2020 at 3:03 PM, kermit said:

^ Lexington just got a $25 (million, oops) BUILD grant for their new station (plus a grade separation downtown).

https://www.the-dispatch.com/story/news/local/2020/09/11/lexington-receive-25-million-new-train-and-bus-station/3464501001/

 

Where exactly is the new station going to be?  I'm guessing along Railroad St where they knocked down several buildings?  I hope they don't tear down too much, there are a lot of early 20th-century structures in that area that would be game changers if a few were renovated.

[kermit]

^ I have not heard about exact location, I was assuming around 7th ave based on track layout and clues in the article. I’ll bet @jtmonk knows.

Edited September 13, 2020 by kermit

[carolina1792]

Side note since any project in Raleigh helps Charlotte's rail projects: 

 

Raleigh's Union Station Bus Station (RUSBUS) BUILD grant all set in stone and the project will start construction mid-2022 according to GoTriangle's board meeting last month. It will be an extension of the Raleigh Union Station and support Bus Rapid Transit and regular buses on the first few floors and a mix-use tower of 'up-to-40 stories' on top. However the developer, Hoffman & Associates is a DC-based developer and has never designed on this scale ever, if the entire project is at least 18 stories it will be their tallest project in the company's history. Given the location and cost of the project I suspect the mix-use portion of this project to exceed 20 stories but unlikely to use the full 40 stories allowed. Given the size of the lot it will likely be two 20+ tower towers on a single transit and parking deck platform but your guess is as good as mine.  Hoffman is also building a DC-style multi-structure project in Raleigh called the Seaboard with mostly 7-story structures.  The 30% design of the transit facility is currently being done with the rest of the project designed in 2021. 

 

Also, North Carolina Capital Area Metropolitan Planning Organization (CAMPO)'s last board meeting seems to have painted a positive image of the viability of the future commuter rail system in Raleigh and more municipalities have joined the project including Johnston County (JoCo). I suspect this project will be fully realized sometime in the 2030's and may extend from Clayton or Selma in JoCo through southern Wake County, Raleigh, RTP, and Durham County.  CAMPO also reviewed a commuter rail network from Raleigh Union Station to Downtown Fayetteville, this is just a preliminary report however. 

 

 

 

 

[jtmonk]

22 hours ago, nicholas said:

Where exactly is the new station going to be?  I'm guessing along Railroad St where they knocked down several buildings?  I hope they don't tear down too much, there are a lot of early 20th-century structures in that area that would be game changers if a few were renovated.

Correct, it's going to be along South Railroad Street between East 3rd and 4th avenue.   The buildings in that location burnt down a few years ago, we only planned to demo a 1970 addition and keep the rest but the fire destroyed everything between S Railroad Street and the tracks.  

[carolina1792]

NCDOT given fed money to buy the S-Line from CSX . This portion of rail goes from the Virginia border to Raleigh. The corridor will be used in the future for high speed rail service that may reduce the transit time between DC to Charlotte by hours. NCDOT has already set aside $50 million to build 3 rail bridges on this line starting in 2021. 

 https://amp.newsobserver.com/news/local/article245841010.html

Virginia purchased the portion from  Petersburg (near Richmond) to the NC border last year and is planning over $3.7 billion dollars in rail upgrades throughout Virginia. 

 

 

[kermit]

I don’t entirely believe this calculation but this guy says at 4+ hours will be cut from the CLT-NYP trip based on projects that are currently underway, planned or achievable (this includes the S-Line). A before 5pm arrival in NYP is a pretty big deal.

I don't know where the DC-NYC reduction is coming from. Washington-Richmond and Raleigh-Richmond (1:56) is a done deal with S-Line. I don't see where 50 minutes is coming out of Raleigh-Charlotte without high-platforms and electrification)

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by kermit

[jthomas]

17 hours ago, kermit said:

I don’t entirely believe this calculation but this guy says at 4+ hours will be cut from the CLT-NYP trip based on projects that are currently underway, planned or achievable (this includes the S-Line). A before 5pm arrival in NYP is a pretty big deal.

I don't know where the DC-NYC reduction is coming from. Washington-Richmond and Raleigh-Richmond (1:56) is a done deal with S-Line. I don't see where 50 minutes is coming out of Raleigh-Charlotte without high-platforms and electrification)

For DC-NYC, he says he is assuming Acela schedules. While the equipment used on these new round trips will likely be limited to 125 mph top speed, if the stops on the NEC are limited, it could probably still make closer to the Acela schedule than the NE Regional (I think the regionals average around 3:20 from DC to NY). Losing the engine change in DC helps too (that must be figured into the 4hr 8 min that he cites). Perhaps he is assuming a similar limited stop pattern on the Raleigh-Charlotte segment? That could be an appealing idea. By the time this project comes on line, we should have 5x daily frequencies making all stops between Charlotte and Raleigh (including the new Harrisburg, Lexington, and Hillsborough stations). An overlay of 4x daily trains that only make the major stops (Charlotte, Greensboro, Durham, Raleigh, maybe 1-2 others?) would be a nice option.

Also, there are various projects buried in NCDOT's STIP long-range plans for grade separations, curve realignments, and additional sidings between Greensboro and Raleigh. They are currently scheduled as piecemeal upgrades stretching well into the future, but perhaps a round of federal investment could see those projects bundled together and brought forward. IIRC, taken together they would provide a nearly continuous double-tracked railroad from Greensboro to Raleigh, while easing many of the worst curves that slow that section of the trip.

[carolina1792]

1 hour ago, jthomas said:

For DC-NYC, he says he is assuming Acela schedules. While the equipment used on these new round trips will likely be limited to 125 mph top speed, if the stops on the NEC are limited, it could probably still make closer to the Acela schedule than the NE Regional (I think the regionals average around 3:20 from DC to NY). Losing the engine change in DC helps too (that must be figured into the 4hr 8 min that he cites). Perhaps he is assuming a similar limited stop pattern on the Raleigh-Charlotte segment? That could be an appealing idea. By the time this project comes on line, we should have 5x daily frequencies making all stops between Charlotte and Raleigh (including the new Harrisburg, Lexington, and Hillsborough stations). An overlay of 4x daily trains that only make the major stops (Charlotte, Greensboro, Durham, Raleigh, maybe 1-2 others?) would be a nice option.

Also, there are various projects buried in NCDOT's STIP long-range plans for grade separations, curve realignments, and additional sidings between Greensboro and Raleigh. They are currently scheduled as piecemeal upgrades stretching well into the future, but perhaps a round of federal investment could see those projects bundled together and brought forward. IIRC, taken together they would provide a nearly continuous double-tracked railroad from Greensboro to Raleigh, while easing many of the worst curves that slow that section of the trip.

Yep, the Piedmont Improvement Program benefitted the Greensboro to Charlotte rail line more. Triangle always gets the raw end of the deal when it comes to these things. 

[kermit]

29 minutes ago, carolina1792 said:

Yep, the Piedmont Improvement Program benefitted the Greensboro to Charlotte rail line more. Triangle always gets the raw end of the deal when it comes to these things. 

Yea, kinda. The lack of double track funds for the NCRR east of Gboro was not a political decision, it was due to the light freight traffic east of Greensboro.   But, if the state ever wants to see useful commuter rail in the Triangle and Greensboro areas (and they SHOULD) then everything between Gboro and Raleigh needs double track -- plus station sidings for high platforms.

Its still 30 years away, but I would not be surprised if NS has already started to make noise about not renewing their NCRR lease for any tracks east of Greensboro. I don't believe a partial lease has ever come before up for the NCRR and I wonder how much hardball the NCRR would be able or willing to play with NS. Unfortunately, its unlikely that any other Class 1 would want the lease, and its also very unlikely that NCRR / NCDOT want to pay for the line's maintenance. If NCDOT can show strong demand for pax service, I could imagine a Brightline style company leasing the NCRR (and selling freight rights on the side).