Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[15895]

2 hours ago, The Real Clayton said:

This is all thats been released, but this gives a very good insight into the architectural language of the complex which will be 2.5x denser than whats planned in Raleigh. What I've seen is truly the most transformative project in Charlotte's history.

Maybe the most transformative rendering. The Amtrak will still only have relatively few frequencies to Charlotte. And the ones to Charlotte and even Washington were always less than ideal. 

Raleigh on the other hand seems much better served and better times. 

I don’t see how this could be more transformative than the Former Observer parcels with Honeywell, BofA, etc. Or light rail or even Romare Park. 

 

[CLT Development]

2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Maybe the most transformative rendering. The Amtrak will still only have relatively few frequencies to Charlotte. And the ones to Charlotte and even Washington were always less than ideal. 

Raleigh on the other hand seems much better served and better times. 

I don’t see how this could be more transformative than the Former Observer parcels with Honeywell, BofA, etc. Or light rail or even Romare Park. 

 

its quite a bit denser than Legacy Union, has a myriad of transit uses, and the parking its buried 

Edited February 27, 2021 by The Real Clayton

[Cityplanner]

3 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

I don’t know about that.  Sometimes it does take the ‘Public’ in Public Private Partnerships for developers to take on additional risk to make something bigger/better than it would have been.  Transit is a risky and expensive endeavor.   Brightline probably could/would strike faster but it certainly wouldn’t be ‘gleaming’ as that would lessen the bottom line.

Have you taken Brightline?

The main station at Miami Worldcenter is gleaming and futuristic, and far snazzier than any airport or train station I've ever been in. 

Shiny, new, luxurious and very high-end--imagine an American Airlines Flagship Lounge to wait in while waiting for the 10:15am train for your commute.  And even the local stations along the line are very sleek and luxurious. 

And all was completed much faster and efficiently than the Charlotte train station.

If you haven't taken Brightline, please do, and I'll gladly hear you out once you've done so.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Cityplanner said:

And all was completed much faster and efficiently than the Charlotte train station.

It helps that the railroad already owned all of that land. Brightline was just as much a real estate project as a transportation project. That would not be the case if Brightline came to NC. Brightline had a chance to submit for the Gateway project RFQ, but they choose not to.

Brightline has also been unable to get the debt financing they need for their Las Vegas train.

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by kermit

[KJHburg]

I crossed over the ACWR tracks the ones that go through NoDa and out through east Charlotte to points east.  My brother a train guy told me 6-7 trains a week not many now but I was wondering  when the Charlotte Pipe and Foundry completes the move to Oakboro if the frequency of trains will increase.  They get car loads of scrap now and ship out a lot.  That may mean more traffic for this short line.  what do you think about this will the frequency increase thus more trains through the heart of NoDa.  I think it will happen.  

Aberdeen Carolina & Western Railway Company: "The Carolina Route" - ACW Railway Company

[kermit]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I crossed over the ACWR tracks the ones that go through NoDa and out through east Charlotte to points east.  My brother a train guy told me 6-7 trains a week not many now but I was wondering  when the Charlotte Pipe and Foundry completes the move to Oakboro if the frequency of trains will increase.  They get car loads of scrap now and ship out a lot.  That may mean more traffic for this short line.  what do you think about this will the frequency increase thus more trains through the heart of NoDa.  I think it will happen.  

Aberdeen Carolina & Western Railway Company: "The Carolina Route" - ACW Railway Company

I doubt it would be more than a couple of additional trains per week.

There is a plan to bypass the through-NoDa tracks, although it will go through the hot new warehouse district around Sugar Creek instead. Everything is designed, they are just waiting on the right grant.

Edited February 28, 2021 by kermit

[Cityplanner]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

It helps that the railroad already owned all of that land. Brightline was just as much a real estate project as a transportation project. That would not be the case if Brightline came to NC. Brightline had a chance to submit for the Gateway project RFQ, but they choose not to.

Brightline has also been unable to get the debt financing they need for their Las Vegas train.

 

Fortress didn’t own the land or track for the Las Vegas route, called Brightline West.  It bought the land and is proceeding with the project, despite having to redo its financial planning.  
 

Brightline has specifically mentioned Atlanta-Charlotte as a potential route.  If local governments would be proactive and try to lure Brightline, particularly given its previously-expressed interest, then that would help.

The status of the uptown train station is unacceptable.  20 years of studies, plans and project and no new station to show for all of that.

[B Randy]

26 minutes ago, Cityplanner said:

Fortress didn’t own the land or track for the Las Vegas route, called Brightline West.  It bought the land and is proceeding with the project, despite having to redo its financial planning.  
 

Brightline has specifically mentioned Atlanta-Charlotte as a potential route.  If local governments would be proactive and try to lure Brightline, particularly given its previously-expressed interest, then that would help.

The status of the uptown train station is unacceptable.  20 years of studies, plans and project and no new station to show for all of that.

Sounds like you’re in tight w/ Brightline. Any insight you can provide re: their plans in Southeast?

[rancenc]

Great article on the Durham rail station and it's proximity to events and places in downtown Durham.  Will be curious to read about Charlotte's current station!

https://www.ourstate.com/nc-by-train-first-stop-durham-station/?fbclid=IwAR3B-QbXxuoGfQ2QJgv3fdVET-7WJvoDtD1-1aIBDMi0gSKWgu6rcXd6xYw

 

[DEnd]

3 hours ago, B Randy said:

Sounds like you’re in tight w/ Brightline. Any insight you can provide re: their plans in Southeast?

Brightline is currently not running trains, they scrapped their plans to become Virgin Trains USA and issue an IPO (partly due to COVID).  Any expansion they do outside of Florida is going to be highly dependent on government financing of the corridor, the returns just aren't there for private financing.  They were able to secure 1.19 billion for the expansion to Orlando (and I think Disney World), but they would need 10 times that amount to cover about the same amount of traffic for an Atlanta-Charlotte line. They also didn't have to buy very much Right of Way for the project. The next phase is a Route from Orland to Tampa.  The next project (outside of Florida) they think they can get funding for is LA-Vegas.  Unless some Governments can get Brightline's investment to probably down below 2 billion Atlanta-Charlotte with Brightline ain't gonna happen.

Edited February 28, 2021 by DEnd

[Cityplanner]

9 hours ago, B Randy said:

Sounds like you’re in tight w/ Brightline. Any insight you can provide re: their plans in Southeast?

No, I am just a customer of Brightline and see its publicly-available news.

6 hours ago, DEnd said:

Brightline is currently not running trains, they scrapped their plans to become Virgin Trains USA and issue an IPO (partly due to COVID).  Any expansion they do outside of Florida is going to be highly dependent on government financing of the corridor, the returns just aren't there for private financing.  They were able to secure 1.19 billion for the expansion to Orlando (and I think Disney World), but they would need 10 times that amount to cover about the same amount of traffic for an Atlanta-Charlotte line. They also didn't have to buy very much Right of Way for the project. The next phase is a Route from Orland to Tampa.  The next project (outside of Florida) they think they can get funding for is LA-Vegas.  Unless some Governments can get Brightline's investment to probably down below 2 billion Atlanta-Charlotte with Brightline ain't gonna happen.

Brightline terminated its link with Virgin due to some financial issues with Virgin.  Virgin didn’t terminate the link.

[nakers2]

I just signed a lease at Camden Cotton Mills, and my apartment will be facing the tracks, so if this project takes off, hopefully I can contribute my limited photography skills. 

[15895]

On 2/27/2021 at 3:52 PM, The Real Clayton said:

its quite a bit denser than Legacy Union, has a myriad of transit uses, and the parking its buried 

office towers are turning out not to be the greatest at providing anything meaningful at the street level except Starbucks. 

residential, it seems like retail here would struggle due to foot traffic and not the best location uptown for vehicles. Mass transit would be meh. Transferring from light rail to streetcar. If they tear down CTC that could be very promising for mass transit contributing to a robust area.

I just think if epicenter is struggling and I think converting some spaces into office space... makes me a little skeptical on this being so transformative. 

I used to be pro-retail and stuff uptown buttt I’m fine with it being bars and restaurants. It’d be nice to see SouthEnd get the retail and better bars and stuff. It’s turning into a very vibrant area. 

im Just struggling to understand how it could be very transformative unless there are features and things that are attractions. (I mean. It’s very transformative in the fact that gravel parking lots would be home to a large project. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[CLT Development]

37 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

office towers are turning out not to be the greatest at providing anything meaningful at the street level except Starbucks. 

residential, it seems like retail here would struggle due to foot traffic and not the best location uptown for vehicles. Mass transit would be meh. Transferring from light rail to streetcar. If they tear down CTC that could be very promising for mass transit contributing to a robust area.

I just think if epicenter is struggling and I think converting some spaces into office space... makes me a little skeptical on this being so transformative. 

I used to be pro-retail and stuff uptown buttt I’m fine with it being bars and restaurants. It’d be nice to see SouthEnd get the retail and better bars and stuff. It’s turning into a very vibrant area. 

im Just struggling to understand how it could be very transformative unless there are features and things that are attractions. (I mean. It’s very transformative in the fact that gravel parking lots would be home to a large project. 

Epicentre will receive a retail makeover, not office. #SmokeAndMirrors. And office can have dynamic street frontage, we just have to push for it to be a requirement. I would say Ally Charlotte Center will be very vibrant on the street level. 101 Independence Center's remake will be very positive, as well, creating outward facing retail for the first time in its history. This downturn has exposed Uptown for being a 9-5 neighborhood, we will have to be much more creative going forward programming our most important neighborhood. This was a teaching moment for the city and its stakeholders.

Edited February 28, 2021 by The Real Clayton

[King of the Queen City]

Hey Kenan, where is the silver line going?

In no way do I think this was a random roast line. One of SNL’s writers must have been reading up on Charlotte transportation.

[drumsy]

On 6/20/2019 at 9:51 AM, drumsy said:

Pedestrian tunnel now possibility at Salisbury train station : https://www.salisburypost.com/2019/06/20/city-looks-for-train-station-funding-alternative-pedestrian-access/

 

City approves DOT agreement, Salisbury Station project could begin next year: https://www.salisburypost.com/2021/03/02/construction-of-additional-platform-underground-tunnel-at-salisbury-station-expected-to-begin-next-year/

[kermit]

1 hour ago, drumsy said:

City approves DOT agreement, Salisbury Station project could begin next year: https://www.salisburypost.com/2021/03/02/construction-of-additional-platform-underground-tunnel-at-salisbury-station-expected-to-begin-next-year/

This is good news. Will make on time performance better on NCRR and moves us one step closer to commuter rail on the corridor.

I am still surprised they built the new (ish) Kannapolis station with just a single platform

[Seaboard Fellow]

4 hours ago, drumsy said:

City approves DOT agreement, Salisbury Station project could begin next year: https://www.salisburypost.com/2021/03/02/construction-of-additional-platform-underground-tunnel-at-salisbury-station-expected-to-begin-next-year/

This will help tremendously with the fluidity of train operations especially with increased freight and passenger traffic expected in the near future. Hopefully the Harrisburg Station is built with two platforms and does not preclude an *easy* future blue line connection.  

Edited March 2, 2021 by Seaboard Fellow

[kermit]

GADOT has selected their preferred corridor for Charlotte to Atlanta passenger rail service. They have selected the Greenfield corridor option which runs from Gateway Station (I believe), through CLT, has a diversion to touch Greenville, Anderson, Athens, 'central' Atlanta and ATL (routing within Atlanta is TBD). The two other options considered (IIRC) were an shared alignment with the NS tracks (the current Crescent route) and an I-85 alignment which was also new build. I'll need to find the EIS for the details, but the Greenfield option is for 220mph service. 

While GADOT is pushing the project forward, its still is very preliminary stages. I would not get my hopes up for 220 mph service for at least 20 years at best.

The SCDOT rail guy is speaking at the same conference now and only mentioned passenger service in passing (which is telling).

If they actually make 220 mph service happen then it sure would be nice to get 220mph service north of Charlotte as well....

 

A seperate presenter said that the current phase of Gateway construction will build the canopy foundations, but the canopies themselves will not be constructed until phase 2 (see renderings below, these are not new news).

Edited March 25, 2021 by kermit

[sakami]

On 3/25/2021 at 1:53 PM, kermit said:

GADOT has selected their preferred corridor for Charlotte to Atlanta passenger rail service. They have selected the Greenfield corridor option which runs from Gateway Station (I believe), through CLT, has a diversion to touch Greenville, Anderson, Athens, 'central' Atlanta and ATL (routing within Atlanta is TBD). The two other options considered (IIRC) were an shared alignment with the NS tracks (the current Crescent route) and an I-85 alignment which was also new build. I'll need to find the EIS for the details, but the Greenfield option is for 220mph service. 

While GADOT is pushing the project forward, its still is very preliminary stages. I would not get my hopes up for 220 mph service for at least 20 years at best.

The SCDOT rail guy is speaking at the same conference now and only mentioned passenger service in passing (which is telling).

If they actually make 220 mph service happen then it sure would be nice to get 220mph service north of Charlotte as well....

 

A seperate presenter said that the current phase of Gateway construction will build the canopy foundations, but the canopies themselves will not be constructed until phase 2 (see renderings below, these are not new news).

Is there a link to this presentation you can share? I would like to get a closer look, specifically at the stations, in the GA section of the map. 

[kermit]

1 hour ago, sakami said:

Is there a link to this presentation you can share? I would like to get a closer look, specifically at the stations, in the GA section of the map. 

Unfortunately the video is only accessible to paid/registered conference participants. The images in the streaming video were more than a little fuzzy. 

I believe GADOT is releasing a report on the preferred route in the next few weeks.

The EIS has a few maps but I think things are pretty unsettled on the Atlanta end of the route.  http://www.dot.ga.gov/InvestSmart/Rail/EIS/04-Alternatives Considered.pdf

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

Openly wondering where in the above three (3) photos of Gateway Station under construction that there would even be space for the Silver Line Rails?  I’m sure Amtrak & Lightrail use different Gauge Rails so doesn’t look like any future space reserved for Silver if it ever gets funded?

[Cityplanner]

Currently there is only one train in each direction three days a week between Charlotte and Atlanta.

Does anyone see a 220-mph system as anything more than a pie-in-the-sky promise, given the current state of passenger rail on that route?

Instead of spending money on studies and plans, why not spend money on maybe trying to return the route to where it was in, say, 1974.  Back then it had 2 trains per day in each direction.  Maybe then try to return it to where it was in 1970, with multiple trains per day in each direction.

I’m not aware of any place in the US that went from one conventional train in each direction to a 220-mph system.  All corridors that I know of have started with building up the frequency of conventional trains, and then incremental track improvements to increase speeds.

I’d love a 220-mph system but that’s just not realistic, particularly given SC and GA attitudes to rail.

[kermit]

^ I dunno, the EIS suggests Greenfield is the best choice by far. While the Greenfield route comes at a big price tag, at least it would provide transformative service. Sticking with the Crescent route would still cost billions, but we would be stuck with crappy service that is still slower than driving. I would bet if HSR money every emerges (e.g. carbon tax) then this corridor would have a very good shot at getting built.

I also like that the planned stops on the Greenfield route really gives SC the middle finger. Its petty but its satisfying.

[5 day per week Crescent service will be back in May]

Edited March 29, 2021 by kermit

[jthomas]

29 minutes ago, kermit said:

I also like that the planned stops on the Greenfield route really give SC the middle finger. Its petty but its satisfying.

LOL.

In all seriousness, that GSP detour really sticks out on the map like, well, a middle finger. This line needs to be thought of as part of a larger HSR corridor from Atlanta to the Northeast. In that context, I think it would be best to follow the model of the new TGV Bordeaux line. The 220 mph line would entirely bypass Greenville and Spartanburg to make Atlanta-DC more viable. Greenville and Spartanburg would be served on a detour of upgraded legacy tracks, which could serve the center cities. To me, that makes much more sense than adding 20 miles to the route just to serve GSP airport. There could still be a metro Greenville stop on the main line too - maybe around Simpsonville?