Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[CLT2014]

16 hours ago, kermit said:

^ Glad they are still being active with PR. Unfortunately Brightline has been having trouble selling their bonds to finance LA-Vegas. I think sources of capital are in wait and see mode. They need to see what kind of yields come from the Orlando service. If that looks good (won’t know for more than a year), then I think Brightline will begin a push for more routes, but LA-Vegas is first in line. Clt-Atl might be next, but I’ll bet it will require some big public subsidies.

LA transplant here... Brightline is not proposing a Los Angeles to Las Vegas route.... nice marketing spin by them. They are building a Victorville (crappy hell hole 85 miles outside of DTLA) to Las Vegas route. So a  Los Angeles customer will need to fight the congestion of the urban area to make it out to Victorville (where the traffic situation just starts to improve) just to pull over, park, and transfer to a train. Currently, there is no commuter rail to Victorville since it is out in the middle of nowhere, but Metrolink (So Cal's commuter rail) is studying a hypothetical link out to Victorville so customers could transfer from routes that do go to Los Angeles.

This service is incredibly inefficient against flying for the vast majority of Los Angeles County residents. LAX and Burbank airport are in the heart of where the vast majority of the population lives and it is a cheap $100 55 minute nonstop flight to Las Vegas with service on an airline nearly every 15 minutes.

HSR in Los Angeles, including the states struggling line, has not yet figured how to breach the region's mountain chains and dense development to bring new tracks into the actual city. IMO, they are just going to rip off investors not familiar with consumer behavior and traffic patterns in the region by calling Victorville the same as Los Angeles.

The "Los Angeles" terminus of the Brightline route, beautiful Victorville:

Edited July 31, 2021 by CLT2014

[KJHburg]

But Victorville has an In N Out and is after the El Cajon pass a favorite stopping point coming out of LA basin to Vegas.  But I agree that is really not an LA to Vegas connection. 

[XRZ.ME]

Does NCRR has improvement project can compete for the new infrastructure bill money?

 

[kermit]

18 hours ago, XRZ.ME said:

Does NCRR has improvement project can compete for the new infrastructure bill money?

 

That is a good question and honestly I am not sure. Its also kinda early to say, the bill has not been adopted yet, there will be amendments and its not clear what types of projects will be prioritized (e.g. shovel ready vs. just a good idea).  Since the NCRR is really just a landlord, they don't have the capacity to get grants and build stuff. NCDOT usually takes on big projects and grants on the NCRR. The NCRR does build things like new bridges and sidings to serve industrial customers, but not much more than that.

Potential projects on the NCRR:

• I _think_ it has quite a few small projects in the triangle that are "shovel ready."  They are mostly passing sidings which move the area closer to double-track. These projects were prepped for previous iterations of Triangle Commuter rail which fell through. The problem with these projects is the NCRR does not appear to be thrilled with the prospect of Triangle Commuter rail so I am not sure they will be proactive in pushing those.
• If some of the money can be allocated to maintenance and operations its possible that max passenger speeds from Charlotte to Greensboro could be upped by 15mph (the tracks are built for that speed) (this is a long-shot)
• Hillsborough, Lexington and Harrisburg stations. These new stations might be a model for high platforms for existing stations.
• Charlotte passenger by-pass tracks. I believe these plans are shovel ready (and the new 36th street overpass includes space for it). This would allow passenger trains to pass through the NS yard and get to Gateway more smoothly.
• If the Charlotte by-pass tracks get funded I would expect it would include the ACWR relocation (so it no longer goes through NoDa).

There are other projects that are not (currently) on NCRR tracks. Some of these (like the S-Line) might be brought under the NCRR umbrella after the state completes their purchase and construction.

• The S-Line has its EIS complete, but design work is not (IIRC). But, that was not a big problem with the previous round of ARRA grants. I would be surprised if the S-Line reconstruction did not get a big wad of cash from this bill. This would also come with some change to build an additional  platform at Raleigh Union Station.
• I also expect Phase 2 of the Charlotte passenger equipment maintenance facility will get some $$$ and that is shovel ready. Phase one remains unconnected to the main and thus unused as yet (it probably won't come online until Gateway station opens). While riders won't really notice it, it will improve reliability of trains going North from here.
• Track purchase and rebuild from Goldsboro to Wilmington is another promising project. Purchasing the still active track from CSX could sensibly be packaged with the state's purchase of the active portions of the S-Line from CSX.

Longer shots:

• Perhaps NCDOT has some plans available to increase track capacity out to the airport (or Gastonia) for Piedmont service? That will certainly be a battle with NS and I think the ROI on this would be low.
• Its nowhere near designed but a new bridge over the Cape Fear in Wilmington would also be a worthy project. This would open the possibility of transit in Wilmington on the old CSX tracks and also make the Wilmington passenger build out marginally easier.
• Related to above, NCDOT might apply for funds to purchase rolling stock for the Wilmington route they hear the track money is coming.

Norfolk Southern might get:

• Charlotte junction build out (near the airport). This is a pretty small project and land is already owned.
• I wonder if NS is thinking about rationalizing its yard real estate in the area. Linwood is currently underutilized. Could some of the  Charlotte and Greensboro yard capacity be moved Linwood if NS were properly motivated? NS would still need space for local deliveries in Charlotte so completely eliminating the Charlotte yard seems unlikely. I do wonder if a new local yard could be built on the Phillip Morris (now beverage central)  land in Concord. (this is all very unlikely)

CSX: (very very unlikely)

• I would really like to see CSX get money for a new Charlotte intermodal yard in Monroe and have them close down their current Pincoa yard.  I think this is probably so far from reality that its not on anyone's radar but mine.

The NC portion of the S-Line would probably be around $1 billion (Virginia portion higher) (just guessing). Everything else might be less than a billion total. So NC would be small-potatoes in the scheme of the rail money.  This is genuinely tragic, given our swing state status, and position as an NEC extension we could have done REALLY well in this round of funding if we had big, "shovel ready"
 projects (e.g. full HSR from Charlotte to Richmond)

I can't imagine any scenario where the Red Line would get money.

While much of the above is largely speculative, these Virginia projects are critical to any NC rail advancements and all three are very likely to see money:

• Long Bridge replacement. This is absolutely necessary to increase frequencies to DC and points north. This project is ready to go.
• Virginia triple tracking Alexandria to Richmond -- will speed our trip to the corridor.
• Downtown Richmond -- South  track rebuild. Replacing the tracks which connect Richmond Main Street over the James to the S-Line.

Virginia has the local match money for long bridge at least.  Once all of the VA projects are complete then the NCRR becomes a true extension of the NEC. With luck that might shake CLT-ATL money loose.

[there are others here who know much more about this stuff than I do, don't take any of this as gospel)

Edited August 4, 2021 by kermit

[jthomas]

13 hours ago, XRZ.ME said:

Does NCRR has improvement project can compete for the new infrastructure bill money?

 

One time I did a deep dive into NCDOT's 10-year plan, and there are a lot of grade separation projects buried in there. There are also several projects for sidings and curve realignment between Greensboro and Raleigh, the cumulative effect of which would be to effectively double track the entire segment. Perhaps all of these projects could be bundled into one larger project, a al the Piedmont Improvement Project from ARRA.

However, what is more important to me is that they actually run trains over this track! It is frustrating that the promised additional frequencies of the Piedmont are still years away. NC will get several new trains to New York as part of the Virginia projects. Those are currently scheduled for completion at the end of the decade, so it would be wonderful to knock a few years off of that timeline. I would love for NCDOT to articulate a vision for hourly, clockface Piedmont service, and then to actually make it happen. I think that would really move the needle in the state. 

[orulz]

Hourly Piedmont trains, to Gateway Station, stopping also in Harrisburg, Lexington, and Hillsborough (in addition to all existing stops) with a trip time fast enough to enable a train to complete its run, be serviced, and turn around ready to head the other way, in 3 hours - is the right vision.

Throw in an extension to CLT (while still maintaining maintaining 3 hour trip + turnaround) would be an added bonus. A stop in the RTP/RDU/I-540 area would be icing on the cake.

So:

-Increase frequency to hourly!
-Up to 5 more stops
-slightly longer journey (to CLT instead of Gateway)
-but still shortening the overall overall journey time
-faster turnaround for better equipment utilization

Figure out what it would take to make this happen... and do it!

How do you make a train trip take less time, while adding more stops and making it longer?

-Higher top speeds
-Better dependability so less schedule padding is needed
-Speed up slow zones
-Spend less time stopped by shortening station dwell times
-Electrification would obviously be great, but I don't think it would be necessary in order to do the above in 3 hours.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

I'm not aware of any planned double tracking or sidings between Greensboro and Durham, at least in the current STIP. All I can find are a few grade separations near Greensboro and the new station in Hillsborough. A list of draft "statewide mobility" projects for the next STIP should be released at the end of this month, so we'll see if anything new comes up. Still, you're stuck with years of planning and design before anything will happen and NCDOT screws up their budget again and delays their projects another 5-10 years .

This stretch is a major bottleneck that is going to delay additional service between Charlotte and Raleigh for another decade or more at the rate we're going.

[Third Strike]

Good article on the possible rail expansions in eastern and western North Carolina:

https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/08/exploring-north-carolinas-possible.html?m=1

[cowboy_wilhelm]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:00 AM, cowboy_wilhelm said:

The wye is tentatively scheduled to be let in August of this year, along with the Kannapolis second platform. The second platform in Salisbury is scheduled for a November let.

Can't remember where I read it, but yes, NS needs the wye to eliminate backing into their intermodal yard from the Columbia line, so I'm sure they were more eager to cooperate on this project than some others.

https://connect.ncdot.gov/letting/12 Month Tentative Letting Library/12 MONTH LET LIST (JUNE 2021 - MAY 2022).pdf

The wye has been delayed until November.  The second platforms at Kannapolis and Salisbury have been delayed until December and March, respectively, due to "external actions" (probably NS whining about something).

[CLT @❤️]

[Hushpuppy321]

Patiently awaiting details on phase III of Gateway Station….

[orulz]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:59 PM, cowboy_wilhelm said:

The wye has been delayed until November.  The second platforms at Kannapolis and Salisbury have been delayed until December and March, respectively, due to "external actions" (probably NS whining about something).

I hope that the "external action" is them deciding to coordinate with NCDOT's purchase of new trains, and rethink the design to go for high platforms.

Level boarding at mid-line stations is likely the lowest-hanging fruit when it comes to speeding up Piedmont service. 

[Third Strike]

On 8/28/2021 at 3:11 PM, Hushpuppy321 said:

Patiently awaiting details on phase III of Gateway Station….

I remember talks of a temp Amtrak station (AmShack?) being constructed before the final station is completed. Is that still going to happen?

[kermit]

5 minutes ago, Third Strike said:

I remember talks of a temp Amtrak station (AmShack?) being constructed before the final station is completed. Is that still going to happen?

I believe I read that the city pulled the plug on that idea. I think it was because they were optimistic about development progress at the time and the shack would be an impediment. 

[drumsy]

Last week saw some minor construction activity at the Historic Salisbury Station.

While I won't be able to contribute much information on the technical aspects of what I see, I will be happy to post photos of this project's progress.  I like trains, and I like construction, but I don't get too deep into the details.

[Third Strike]

Random shower thought: CATS should consider using the ACWR line for commuter/regional rail. This is a baseless assumption but since the ACWR company is smaller, and the fact that there is very low traffic on this line, maybe they might be more open to allowing passenger rail on their line than Norfolk South and the O-Line. You could place platforms/stations at Eastway, Sharon Amity, Harris, Harrisburg/Pence Road, and I-485/Albemarle, along with a stop at the Gateway Station. Expansions to Midland could also be a possibility if Cabarrus is onboard. 

[kermit]

Jon Ossoff is trying to get a $10 billion allocation for CLT-ATL HSR into the reconciliation bill. 
 

Its original cost estimates (about a decade old and not more than a guess) were around $10 billion. I suspect it would be double that. Regardless, hat tip to Ossoff for making the effort — I-85 expansion will end up being much more $$$.

https://www.onlineathens.com/story/news/2021/10/14/jon-ossoff-seeking-10-billion-high-speed-rail-line-athens-stop/8451847002/

Edited October 15, 2021 by kermit

[KJHburg]

Spectrum is developing the office and residential towers at the Gateway Station .  Remember when I said there are 58 towers proposed around town over 15 floors here are 5.  Check out their website.  Make that 5 total towers here not 4. 

Gateway Station – Spectrum Companies (spectrumcos.com)

Think it is 1 or 2 office with 2-3 residential perhaps hotel. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by KJHburg

[DMann]

Is this vaporware?

 

[carolinaboy]

13 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Spectrum is developing the office and residential towers at the Gateway Station .  Remember when I said there are 58 towers proposed around town over 15 floors here are 5.  Check out their website.  Make that 5 total towers here not 4. 

Gateway Station – Spectrum Companies (spectrumcos.com)

Think it is 1 or 2 office with 2-3 residential perhaps hotel. 

Forgive me if this is a stupid question but will Gateway Station replace the CTC (I think that's what it's called)? The website says "Gateway Station is located at Graham and West 4th Street in Uptown Charlotte. It will be a transformative intermodal project that connects the city of Charlotte's streetcar, taxi, bus, ridesharing, bicycle and pedestrian, and passenger rail services. 

I know I have read threads where people discuss getting rid of the CTC but I didn't realize this project may actually do that.

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

35 minutes ago, carolinaboy said:

Forgive me if this is a stupid question but will Gateway Station replace the CTC (I think that's what it's called)? The website says "Gateway Station is located at Graham and West 4th Street in Uptown Charlotte. It will be a transformative intermodal project that connects the city of Charlotte's streetcar, taxi, bus, ridesharing, bicycle and pedestrian, and passenger rail services. 

I know I have read threads where people discuss getting rid of the CTC but I didn't realize this project may actually do that.

Gateway station is going to replace that embarrassing thing on North Tryon that we call our Amtrak station.  Gateway is going to be more intermodal and connective, however, it wasn't designed to replace the old CTC.  A long time ago, there's been discussions on moving the CTC somewhere else but most recently, there is a plan to redo the entire CTC block, which includes several towers.  IMO, until they do that, CTC is holding back the development/progress of the surrounding blocks.  

[B Randy]

55 minutes ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

Gateway station is going to replace that embarrassing thing on North Tryon that we call our Amtrak station.  Gateway is going to be more intermodal and connective, however, it wasn't designed to replace the old CTC.  A long time ago, there's been discussions on moving the CTC somewhere else but most recently, there is a plan to redo the entire CTC block, which includes several towers.  IMO, until they do that, CTC is holding back the development/progress of the surrounding blocks.  

CTC will be decentralized - and buses will use both a redeveloped CTC site and a new Gateway Station bus facility.  What routes go where is TBD I believe. 

[Blue_Devil]

Just now, B Randy said:

CTC will be decentralized - and buses will use both a redeveloped CTC site and a new Gateway Station bus facility.  What routes go where is TBD I believe. 

Hopefully much much better security and police presence at both new sites? 

[KJHburg]

2 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

Forgive me if this is a stupid question but will Gateway Station replace the CTC (I think that's what it's called)? The website says "Gateway Station is located at Graham and West 4th Street in Uptown Charlotte. It will be a transformative intermodal project that connects the city of Charlotte's streetcar, taxi, bus, ridesharing, bicycle and pedestrian, and passenger rail services. 

I know I have read threads where people discuss getting rid of the CTC but I didn't realize this project may actually do that.

Yes relocated Amtrak station and inter city bus lines like Greyhound service.  Plus Silver Line is supposed to run there too.    But there is a proposal to redevelop the CTC on East Trade too. 

[RANYC]

4 hours ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

Gateway station is going to replace that embarrassing thing on North Tryon that we call our Amtrak station.  Gateway is going to be more intermodal and connective, however, it wasn't designed to replace the old CTC.  A long time ago, there's been discussions on moving the CTC somewhere else but most recently, there is a plan to redo the entire CTC block, which includes several towers.  IMO, until they do that, CTC is holding back the development/progress of the surrounding blocks.  

In my mind, I'd always thought of CTC as the local transit and transfer node, having blue line, gold line, and CATS bus stops.

Gateway Station was to be thought of as more of a hub for commuter and distance terrestrial travel, with Amtrak, Greyhound, intercity express buses (like Megabus), etc.  Of course taxis and rideshare would be there because people arriving via Amtrak would go on to their ultimate destinations with such modes if not utilizing lines at CTC.

However, all that taxonomy unclear with Silver Line now running through Gateway as well.   Would seem to make sense to have blue, silver, gold, and CATS buses all connecting at one place.  

On redevelopment, back in August 2019, Bizjournal reported that CATS had begun discussions with a development group comprised of White Point Partners and Dart on redeveloping the uptown bus terminal, i.e. CTC.  The White Point/Dart group submitted proposals alongside 2 other firms/groups, but won the chance to move forward.  I believe the other proposals included residential, but White Point/Dart won with a concept that was overwhelmingly office space with a bit of retail and the possibility of hotel rooms.  Their plans also contemplated adjacent lots owned by Norfolk Southern Railroad.

I'd guess the discussions are either stalled or dead, but would love for CATS to update the community, if it hasn't done so.

Edited November 3, 2021 by RANYC