Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[kayman]

11 hours ago, RANYC said:

In my mind, I'd always thought of CTC as the local transit and transfer node, having blue line, gold line, and CATS bus stops.

Gateway Station was to be thought of as more of a hub for commuter and distance terrestrial travel, with Amtrak, Greyhound, intercity express buses (like Megabus), etc.  Of course taxis and rideshare would be there because people arriving via Amtrak would go on to their ultimate destinations with such modes if not utilizing lines at CTC.

However, all that taxonomy unclear with Silver Line now running through Gateway as well.   Would seem to make sense to have blue, silver, gold, and CATS buses all connecting at one place.  

On redevelopment, back in August 2019, Bizjournal reported that CATS had begun discussions with a development group comprised of White Point Partners and Dart on redeveloping the uptown bus terminal, i.e. CTC.  The White Point/Dart group submitted proposals alongside 2 other firms/groups, but won the chance to move forward.  I believe the other proposals included residential, but White Point/Dart won with a concept that was overwhelmingly office space with a bit of retail and the possibility of hotel rooms.  Their plans also contemplated adjacent lots owned by Norfolk Southern Railroad.

I'd guess the discussions are either stalled or dead, but would love for CATS to update the community, if it hasn't done so.

The discussions are still ongoing. CATS officials and other City of Charlotte (COC) entities including Economic Development are still negotiating with those aforementioned developers.  It is still projected to be a mixed use development with at least 1 highrise tower with an office, hotel, and possibly residential components. The N-S owned blocks would be included as they are likely going to be the site of the temporary multinodal hub when the current Charlotte Transportation Center (CTC) site is being redeveloped. Since it's a public private partnership (P3) it is going slow

Edited November 4, 2021 by kayman

[KJHburg]

from the NC By Train Twitter account of the new Gateway Station

1. progress on the passenger platform at 5th & Trade St.

2. pouring concrete for the platform, near  @Panthers   stadium

from this twitter feed:   

NC By Train

@NC_By_Train

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

Any info on this?  CO won't let me behind the paywall.

New uptown Gateway Station for Amtrak will take longer than expected to finish

[deleted account]

6 minutes ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

Any info on this?  CO won't let me behind the paywall.

New uptown Gateway Station for Amtrak will take longer than expected to finish

It's the least surprising headline ever. The article is worth reading though (just open using Incognito mode or get an inexpensive 2 month subscription):

 

 

[Guest]

https://archive.md/IirtD
“The development is expected to stand for 100 years, John said, and be the new ‘iconic symbol’ of the heart of Charlotte.”

That is quite the claim. Dying to see some renderings

[RANYC]

4 hours ago, MothBeast said:

https://archive.md/IirtD
“The development is expected to stand for 100 years, John said, and be the new ‘iconic symbol’ of the heart of Charlotte.”

That is quite the claim. Dying to see some renderings

Oh, had to do a double-take, thought the quote read: "This development is expected to take 100 years."  That's how I feel.

[DMann]

I had hopes that we would have had more definition about what the redevelopment here would be by now.  This is the development that I think will be outstanding.   Please deliver Santa!!!!!

[deleted account]

1 hour ago, DMann said:

I had hopes that we would have had more definition about what the redevelopment here would be by now.  This is the development that I think will be outstanding.   Please deliver Santa!!!!!

This (and maybe North Tryon) would seem to be more impacted by the Pandemic than other projects. Too bad as it seemed we were close to making real progress here.

[JRCLT]

I mean its happening just not at the pace would like and with delays. These are transformational projects for Charlotte and I for one enjoy taking trains places. I am a bit disappointed as I hoped I would be using this station to board much sooner than 2024 or 2025. Progress is happening though…. Very slowly.

[Hushpuppy321]

I read that Charlotte Observer article and was surprised that they mentioned Four (4) Towers (Residential, Hotel, Etc.) would be a part of the Gateway Station mixed use project.  Does anyone know of any other Similar type of Transit Station Project?  Just trying to wrap my mind around would this could look like...

[JRCLT]

I read that Charlotte Observer article and was surprised that they mentioned Four (4) Towers (Residential, Hotel, Etc.) would be a part of the Gateway Station mixed use project.  Does anyone know of any other Similar type of Transit Station Project?  Just trying to wrap my mind around would this could look like...

Raleigh Union Station is similar maybe smaller scale of course. This project is kind of unique. Perhaps Denver Union station. It is similar but you wont really get an idea because the project is designed to be uniquely for Charlotte.

Report by CATS:
https://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/charlotte-gateway-station/Documents/CGS%20MSAP%20-%20Final%20Report.pdf

The circular design in this report I feel matches the aesthetic and design aspects of CLT International. Rightfully so in the concept it has a CLT sign lol.



Some older renderings was also found in CATS Report:
https://gallery.autodesk.com/infraworks360/projects/82680/charlotte-gateway-station-multimodal-station-area-plan

Most recent sneak peak at The Spectrum Cos. Master plan:
https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2021/02/19/gateway-station-update-master-design-plan.html

https://archive.md/IirtD
“The development is expected to stand for 100 years, John said, and be the new ‘iconic symbol’ of the heart of Charlotte.”
That is quite the claim. Dying to see some renderings

Haven’t seen anything more from them yet, though I did see in the article above say they would be presenting the plan to the city this Fall. Fall is almost over so I’m not too sure what they mean by that. The article was written Nov. 5th of this year.

[Reverie39]

I haven't followed too closely. Seems like we don't have any concrete plans about the development that will take place in the Gateway district, is that correct? Presumably the construction right now is focused on the station itself, and then the rest of the development will follow afterwards.

Their website says they have taken inspiration from neighborhoods like Lodo in Denver and the Pearl District in Portland. Looking at these on Google Maps and I'm very impressed. Hopefully Charlotte can match that quality while being unique.

[j-man]

What would the development be in all of the buildings anyway. Would they all be devoted to the gateway station like offices for it?

Edited December 21, 2021 by j-man

[JRCLT]

What would the development be in all of the buildings anyway. Would they all be devoted to the gateway station like offices for it?

This is like any mixed use project. Offices, residential, and hotel. The station would just be the addition with trails, parking, bus terminal likely paid by the City from what I’ve read.

[deleted account]

30 minutes ago, j-man said:

What would the development be in all of the buildings anyway. Would they all be devoted to the gateway station like offices for it?

Typical mixed use development with offices, retail, residential. 

What he said lol...

Edited December 21, 2021 by JBS

[Hushpuppy321]

Wholly Cow, LoDo - Denver Union Station….. One could imagine for Charlotte 

Nice that their Platform are covered too….

[tozmervo]

4 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Wholly Cow, LoDo - Denver Union Station….. One could imagine for Charlotte 

Nice that their Platform are covered too….

you left out an important feature 

[B Randy]

1 hour ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Wholly Cow, LoDo - Denver Union Station….. One could imagine for Charlotte 

Nice that their Platform are covered too….

Same designer for Denver Union Station and Charlotte Gateway Station.  Should be an awesome project.

[15895]

2 hours ago, B Randy said:

Same designer for Denver Union Station and Charlotte Gateway Station.  Should be an awesome project.

As far as rail, Charlotte’s Gateway Station will be served by the Gold Line and a few Amtrak trains (some that arrive/depart at 1am-3am time frame.) 

It’d be crazy awesome if Charlotte even had 1/2 the lines of Denver. I wish someone could superimpose Denver’s rail map onto Charlotte. 

 

 

Some of those lines are “commuter” but they’re high frequency (15 minutes peak, 30 off-peak) and travel up to 70 mph and look like a typical metro (though the airport train has places for your luggage) 

Edited December 22, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[Reverie39]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

As far as rail, Charlotte’s Gateway Station will be served by the Gold Line and a few Amtrak trains (some that arrive/depart at 1am-3am time frame.) 

It’d be crazy awesome if Charlotte even had 1/2 the lines of Denver. I wish someone could superimpose Denver’s rail map onto Charlotte. 

 

 

Some of those lines are “commuter” but they’re high frequency (15 minutes peak, 30 off-peak) and travel up to 70 mph and look like a typical metro (though the airport train has places for your luggage) 

I like those free bus lines they have downtown. 

Also worth pointing out that Denver's metro population is in the same tier as Charlotte's. If Denver can maintain such an extensive transit network then Charlotte should too. Although, I think I have heard a lot of criticism of RTD.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Reverie39

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, Reverie39 said:

I like those free bus lines they have downtown. 

Also worth pointing out that Denver's metro population is in the same tier as Charlotte's. If Denver can maintain such an extensive transit network then Charlotte should too. Although, I think I have heard a lot of criticism of RTD.

One problem with RTD is it has to support the ENTIRE region since the entire region is paying the transit tax. A significant amount of the board seats are thus dominated by suburban / exurb representatives who vote to bring rail to their sprawling suburban town. This has resulted in a rail network that largely serves the suburbs for commuters and misses some of the densest neighborhoods in the city and most popular places to commute that aren't right downtown. The A-Line to the airport has been extremely popular, but some of the other lines have relatively low ridership.

The end result, is despite all of the investment Denver has made, people are picking their cars.... right before the pandemic began, RTD boardings had declined 6.8% from 2014 and boardings per capita had declined 13.% from 2008 despite more rail lines opening and a rapidly growing population. 

The investment is also not making major shifts in commuting patterns. Over 73% of Denver trips are in a single occupancy vehicle and the percent of trips via transit increased only +0.7 pts over a decade prior to the pandemic to 6.7%. 

https://denver.streetsblog.org/2019/02/13/report-denver-transit-riders-switch-to-cars-as-rtd-fails-to-get-the-basics-right/

Edited December 22, 2021 by CLT2014

[15895]

36 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

One problem with RTD is it has to support the ENTIRE region since the entire region is paying the transit tax. A significant amount of the board seats are thus dominated by suburban / exurb representatives who vote to bring rail to their sprawling suburban town. This has resulted in a rail network that largely serves the suburbs for commuters and misses some of the densest neighborhoods in the city and most popular places to commute that aren't right downtown. The A-Line to the airport has been extremely popular, but some of the other lines have relatively low ridership.

The end result, is despite all of the investment Denver has made, people are picking their cars.... right before the pandemic began, RTD boardings had declined 6.8% from 2014 and boardings per capita had declined 13.% from 2008 despite more rail lines opening and a rapidly growing population. 

The investment is also not making major shifts in commuting patterns. Over 73% of Denver trips are in a single occupancy vehicle and the percent of trips via transit increased only +0.7 pts over a decade prior to the pandemic to 6.7%. 

https://denver.streetsblog.org/2019/02/13/report-denver-transit-riders-switch-to-cars-as-rtd-fails-to-get-the-basics-right/

Wonder what Charlotte is since the blue line opened. I wouldn’t be surprised if (2019) there were less people as a percentage of the total population taking the blue line vs. a single occupancy vehicle 

[ajfunder]

4 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

I like those free bus lines they have downtown. 

Also worth pointing out that Denver's metro population is in the same tier as Charlotte's. If Denver can maintain such an extensive transit network then Charlotte should too. Although, I think I have heard a lot of criticism of RTD.

First off, what RTD has done with FastTracks is incredible, plain and simple. That being said, RTD has many issues, many of which stem from growing so quickly. The three largest at the moment are:

 

1. Labor shortage. RTD can't hire and staff enough people to deliver the services it has committed to resulting in cuts across the system. They had this issue prior to pandemic times and it has only gotten worse. There were times as a rider that a bus or train simply wouldn't show up. The overlapping lines on the two southern light rail lines don't exist at the moment due to staffing shortages. Only one of the D/C and E/F pairs respectively are presently running.

 

2. Debt. RTD built so much that they can't take on anymore construction debt for a few decades. Four lines promised to the voters including the L extension to the A Line, D/C southwest line extension, N line extension, and the B line to Boulder and Longmont are decades off at this point. The B line is projected to be finished after 2050 right now, just under 50 YEARS after voters approved it. The project was scuttled when BNSF Railway put a higher price tag on access to their right-of-way then anticipated. Now the corridor is served by fairly decent toll-lane BRT in the interim, but it leaves lots to be desired as well. Sound familiar to CATS approach to I-77 and the Red Line?

 

3. Fares. RTD has some of the highest fares nationwide with regional passes being $7.00 and the airport line is $10.50. It is quite expensive to use RTD, especially if you can't afford monthly passes.

These are good lessons for Charlotte to learn from, and DUS is one of the crown jewels of transit achievement this century in this country. If CGS is anything like DUS, we are in for a treat.

[kermit]

Denver Union Station is fantastic, but there are a couple of important differences with Charlotte Gateway we should keep in mind:

• Its a renovation of a historic, grand, station. Unfortunately Gateway will have a much smaller station building and it is likely to be orders of magnitude less dramatic. The headhouse in Denver is huge and now houses a large amount of traffic generating retail (something Gatweay station will not have)
• DUS only sees 2 amtrak trains per day (we should have 12ish per day when Gateway opens), but they have a large amount of commuter service (90ish trains?) throughout the day (including airport trains). The commuter service is relatively new in Denver but the huge number of trains promise to create a large amount of steady pedestrian activity around the station that Gateway will lack (and would have lacked even w the Red Line since it was such low frequency)
• Simce  DUS is a terminal station it allows for pedestrian circulation on 3 sides (Gatweay’s through tracks create a barrier on two sides except where underpasses are available. While this is bad for pedestrians, it does give Gateway more capacity and faster access for trains.
• DUS has a good bit more transit (LRT and buses) running from it (although if the Silver Line ever gets built we will be about the same in terms of LRT (I believe)
• I feel like DUS is more central to 'central' Denver, while Gateway feels (to me) to be a bit more distant from Uptown activity spaces (I might be wrong about this)

tldr: Don't expect Gateway to be DUS, particularly in terms of pedestrian traffic generation.

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by kermit

[deleted account]

All this talk of the wonderful downtown in Denver and not a peep from ElrodVT?!?

BTW, the free buses in downtown were mentioned above and it's notable that many (all?) run in dedicated and cordoned off "tracks". I assume they are electric but I'm not sure. My point is that they have a streetcar vibe with a fraction of the construction time and expense but they are HEAVILY utilized and have none of the negative connotations associated with typical city buses. Take note Charlotte!