Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[go_vertical]

9 hours ago, kermit said:

The commuter service promises to create a large amount of steady pedestrian activity around the station that Gateway will lack.

These are great points and a good reality check for a lot of people watching this project closely.  I think there is this high expectation that once the station is complete this area will be some sort of hotbed of activity when in reality this will marginally increase foot traffic until the silver line is up and running in ten plus years.  Because of this I'm sceptical that we will see any sort of rapid build out of the parcels surrounding it.  The construction will come but I think it will be very drawn out and we should expect to see vacant lots here for some time. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by go_vertical

[15895]

19 hours ago, ajfunder said:

First off, what RTD has done with FastTracks is incredible, plain and simple. That being said, RTD has many issues, many of which stem from growing so quickly. The three largest at the moment are:

 

1. Labor shortage. RTD can't hire and staff enough people to deliver the services it has committed to resulting in cuts across the system. They had this issue prior to pandemic times and it has only gotten worse. There were times as a rider that a bus or train simply wouldn't show up. The overlapping lines on the two southern light rail lines don't exist at the moment due to staffing shortages. Only one of the D/C and E/F pairs respectively are presently running.

 

2. Debt. RTD built so much that they can't take on anymore construction debt for a few decades. Four lines promised to the voters including the L extension to the A Line, D/C southwest line extension, N line extension, and the B line to Boulder and Longmont are decades off at this point. The B line is projected to be finished after 2050 right now, just under 50 YEARS after voters approved it. The project was scuttled when BNSF Railway put a higher price tag on access to their right-of-way then anticipated. Now the corridor is served by fairly decent toll-lane BRT in the interim, but it leaves lots to be desired as well. Sound familiar to CATS approach to I-77 and the Red Line?

 

3. Fares. RTD has some of the highest fares nationwide with regional passes being $7.00 and the airport line is $10.50. It is quite expensive to use RTD, especially if you can't afford monthly passes.

These are good lessons for Charlotte to learn from, and DUS is one of the crown jewels of transit achievement this century in this country. If CGS is anything like DUS, we are in for a treat.

Lots of very expensive projects in the VA suburbs of DC are being reimbursed for some costs to infrastructure projects (specifically Rail & Dulles Airport) that passed years ago. 

So for all we know, Denver could recoup some of those costs and get enough $ to get financing for the other lines.

I don’t feel like Charlotte has much of anything Rail-related to ask funding for (because nothing is advanced enough - after all these years). Maybe gold Line extension? 
 

Others probably know more than me in this topic though. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[blopp1234]

23 hours ago, kermit said:

Denver Union Station is fantastic, but there are a couple of important differences with Charlotte Gateway we should keep in mind:

• Its a renovation of a historic, grand, station. Unfortunately Gateway will have a much smaller station building and it is likely to be orders of magnitude less dramatic. The headhouse in Denver is huge and now houses a large amount of traffic generating retail (something Gatweay station will not have)
• DUS only sees 2 amtrak trains per day (we should have 12ish per day when Gateway opens), but they have a large amount of commuter service (90ish trains?) throughout the day (including airport trains). The commuter service is relatively new in Denver but the huge number of trains promise to create a large amount of steady pedestrian activity around the station that Gateway will lack (and would have lacked even w the Red Line since it was such low frequency)
• Simce  DUS is a terminal station it allows for pedestrian circulation on 3 sides (Gatweay’s through tracks create a barrier on two sides except where underpasses are available. While this is bad for pedestrians, it does give Gateway more capacity and faster access for trains.
• DUS has a good bit more transit (LRT and buses) running from it (although if the Silver Line ever gets built we will be about the same in terms of LRT (I believe)
• I feel like DUS is more central to 'central' Denver, while Gateway feels (to me) to be a bit more distant from Uptown activity spaces (I might be wrong about this)

tldr: Don't expect Gateway to be DUS, particularly in terms of pedestrian traffic generation.

 

I 100% agree with this analysis and it seems like it has so much potential. With that being said, I don’t think y’all should sell yourselves short, Charlotte has tremendous potential for passenger rail expansion, serving as a major lynchpin for the entire planned southeast rail network and I don’t think y’all should think small in terms of your station.

 

While it currently serves 12 trains per day, the infrastructure proposal Amtrak has proposed would add an additional four trains to Atlanta, plus improvements to the piedmont and southeast regional line which could bring an unspecified number of new trains. Im honestly surprised that NC hasn’t followed VA’s lead on the NC railroad from Greensboro to Charlotte, seeing how it has potential to be a massive intercity and regional rail route. Seems like a dedicated double track right of way could be extremely beneficial in fostering commuter rail to Kannapolis or Salisbury, as well as Amtrak service to points north. 
 

As far as possible comparisons for a station, I really think Sacramento and Albany have great stations in terms of scale (for some reason, most of the old circular gateway renderings seem very small to me, like something you’d find in a city like Durham or Wilmington, not Charlotte). You don’t need constant pedestrian activity to have a decent sized passenger space as that is usually determined by maximum passengers using the station at peak times.

 

While gateway won’t have the constant pedestrian activity like a station with a large regional rail network would have, doesn’t mean the station shouldn’t be able to handle that in the future, especially if it’s going to “last for the next 100 years.”

[B Randy]

12 hours ago, blopp1234 said:

I 100% agree with this analysis and it seems like it has so much potential. With that being said, I don’t think y’all should sell yourselves short, Charlotte has tremendous potential for passenger rail expansion, serving as a major lynchpin for the entire planned southeast rail network and I don’t think y’all should think small in terms of your station.

 

While it currently serves 12 trains per day, the infrastructure proposal Amtrak has proposed would add an additional four trains to Atlanta, plus improvements to the piedmont and southeast regional line which could bring an unspecified number of new trains. Im honestly surprised that NC hasn’t followed VA’s lead on the NC railroad from Greensboro to Charlotte, seeing how it has potential to be a massive intercity and regional rail route. Seems like a dedicated double track right of way could be extremely beneficial in fostering commuter rail to Kannapolis or Salisbury, as well as Amtrak service to points north. 
 

As far as possible comparisons for a station, I really think Sacramento and Albany have great stations in terms of scale (for some reason, most of the old circular gateway renderings seem very small to me, like something you’d find in a city like Durham or Wilmington, not Charlotte). You don’t need constant pedestrian activity to have a decent sized passenger space as that is usually determined by maximum passengers using the station at peak times.

 

While gateway won’t have the constant pedestrian activity like a station with a large regional rail network would have, doesn’t mean the station shouldn’t be able to handle that in the future, especially if it’s going to “last for the next 100 years.”

Great post. Previous analysis of Denver Union also good.

I will differ in saying that Charlotte actually has the potential to be much more interesting/ dynamic/ multilayered than Denver union station (as a fully mixed use development on the station block).  Choosing to be very optimistic and anticipating great things re: design and activation. 

[JRCLT]

While gateway won’t have the constant pedestrian activity like a station with a large regional rail network would have, doesn’t mean the station shouldn’t be able to handle that in the future, especially if it’s going to “last for the next 100 years.”

This.

[CLT Development]

On 12/23/2021 at 5:34 AM, go_vertical said:

These are great points and a good reality check for a lot of people watching this project closely.  I think there is this high expectation that once the station is complete this area will be some sort of hotbed of activity when in reality this will marginally increase foot traffic until the silver line is up and running in ten plus years.  Because of this I'm sceptical that we will see any sort of rapid build out of the parcels surrounding it.  The construction will come but I think it will be very drawn out and we should expect to see vacant lots here for some time. 

The most recent specs I saw had 1.45M sq feet of office, 1.35M sq feet of residential, 65K of retail and 115K sq. feet of hotel along with the 105K square foot station. I'm sure that has changed a lot in covid but saying this won't produce a lot of pedestrian activity is incorrect. 

[go_vertical]

46 minutes ago, The Real Clayton said:

The most recent specs I saw had 1.45M sq feet of office, 1.35M sq feet of residential, 65K of retail and 115K sq. feet of hotel along with the 105K square foot station. I'm sure that has changed a lot in covid but saying this won't produce a lot of pedestrian activity is incorrect. 

I think you should read my post a little closer.  What I said was until a majority or all of the surrounding development comes online and the silver line is up and running this won't bring the steady foot traffic some people think it will with just the opening of the station building.  Not once did I say this will not bring activity flat out. 

[videtur quam contuor]

How much foot traffic does the bus station provide? I wondered about bus scheduling and checked Greyhound online and their arrivals and departures compared to the train. Different context, I agree. Will the intercity bus station be included in this project?

[JRCLT]

Will the intercity bus station be included in this project?

Yep.

[DMann]

Not really, the intercity bus will be across 4th Street.

[JRCLT]

Not really, the intercity bus will be across 4th Street.

It is still part of the same project?

[15895]

11 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

How much foot traffic does the bus station provide? I wondered about bus scheduling and checked Greyhound online and their arrivals and departures compared to the train. Different context, I agree. Will the intercity bus station be included in this project?

Probably not a lot. And those taking the intercity bus from Charlotte probably aren’t going to be able to leisurely afford to stroll around uptown or enjoy surrounding amenities. 

The current CTC bus station has wayyy more foot traffic. 
 

Raleigh Union Station is really nice. It will probably always have more trains than Charlotte. But I personally don’t foresee Charlotte’s Gateway being nearly as vibrant as Raleigh Union Station - particularly the surrounding area.

There might be too many boo boo’s for the area around Gateway to become heavy on foot traffic (outside of office workers) with Circa, FNB tower,  Baseball stadium, courthouse, the Mint, etc. and Graham Street being fairly fast vs. Raleigh Union Station (RUS)being in the warehouse district. 

RUS is about to start its Phase II and it looks great. The Warehouse District is awesome and developments are coming too including what could be a 40-floor tower. In addition, Commuter Rail looks very likely with the passage of the Infrastructure Bill. I think anyone who hasn’t been to RUS take a hop over there and enjoy some time in Raleigh. Also, the renderings of Gateway have looked extremely bland and similar to the airport. RUS has a very good unique look as do other proposed stations/renovations. I’d hate Charlotte to get a station that lacks character.  In other words, one needs to look no farther than RUS on how to do a train station and how to fit it in an urban environment and create a sense of place. Also, it’s a better example than comparing to a historical structure. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[go_vertical]

23 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Probably not a lot. And those taking the intercity bus from Charlotte probably aren’t going to be able to leisurely afford to stroll around uptown or enjoy surrounding amenities. 

The current CTC bus station has wayyy more foot traffic. 
 

Raleigh Union Station is really nice. It will probably always have more trains than Charlotte. But I personally don’t foresee Charlotte’s Gateway being nearly as vibrant as Raleigh Union Station - particularly the surrounding area.

There might be too many boo boo’s for the area around Gateway to become heavy on foot traffic (outside of office workers) with Circa, PNC,  Baseball stadium, courthouse, the Mint, etc. and Graham Street being fairly fast vs. Raleigh Union Station (RUS)being in the warehouse district.

Oooohhhh, when Rick reads this he's going to tell you how wrong you are....... with numbers and everything. 

[kermit]

^ No doubt that RUS looks great and functions well as an Amtrak station. The thing that bugs me about RUS is that it sits on an island, the only (kosher) way in or out is via Martin street. If you are a pedestrian, its a long haul to anywhere west or South of the wye.

The other concern I have with RUS is the ramp that provides access to the current platform on the NCRR. Its a long walk from the platform, down the stairs, up the ramp and into the station. This isn't a big deal for intercity trains (passengers simply don't make those trips very often), but for commuter rail this can be a deal breaker since the passageway inside the station probably adds 5 minutes to every commute before you escape RUS.  There was speculation elsewhere on UP that a commuter rail platform would be built which would allow people to exit the platform directly into downtown closer to Davie / Cabarrus (although this would require some type of ped crossing over the east leg of the wye and fencing to keep folks off the main). This would certainly help commuter rail work better in Raleigh, but it would dilute the flow of peds around RUS a bit. 

None of this is meant to imply that RUS sucks (it certainly does not), but I feel like the designers didn't think much about daily walkability issues.  To bring this back on topic, I REALLY hope that Gateway station designers are aware of the negative aspects of RUS for pedestrians.  (I also REALLY hope that Gateway designers find a way to build an observation platform so folks can get a nice view of the tracks like at RUS but this is more of a nerd niche).

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by kermit

[15895]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

^ No doubt that RUS looks great and functions well as an Amtrak station. The thing that bugs me about RUS is that it sits on an island. The only (kosher) way in or out is via Martin street. If you are a pedestrian, its a long haul to anywhere west or South of the wye.

The other concern I have with RUS is the ramp that provides access to the current platform on the NCRR. Its a long walk from the platform, down the stairs, up the ramp and into the station. This isn't a big deal for intercity trains (passengers simply don't make those trips very often), but for commuter rail this will be a deal breaker (since the passageway inside the station probably adds 5 minutes to every commute before you even escape RUS).  There was speculation that a commuter rail platform would be built which would allow people to exit the platform directly into downtown closer to Davie / Cabarrus (although this would require some type of ped crossing over the east leg of the wye and fencing to keep folks off the main). If a commuter platform is built with a separate exit onto Davie/Cabarrus it would dilute the flow of peds from RUS a bit. 

None of this is meant to imply that RUS sucks (it certainly does not), but I feel like planners gave walkability a low priority. I agree that Triangle commuter rail is likely to see infrastructure bill dollars and get built  thanks to that. That should give RUS the same number of Amtraks as CLT plus another 20 (maybe) commuter trains per day). I just hope that designers take walkability to all parts of downtown seriously.  To bring this back on topic, I REALLY hope that Gateway station designers are aware of the negative aspects of RUS for pedestrians.  (I also REALLY hope that Gateway designers find a way to build an observation platform so folks can get a nice view of the tracks like at RUS).

 

There are office towers that came and are coming to RUS though. Besides, RUS is the same distance to PNC Tower & Wells Fargo tower as Gateway will be to BofA Corp. RUS is closer to the state capital than Gateway is to Charlotte city hall.  

 I don’t think the walk is a huge deal. And imagine with commuter rail underway the street improvements and further redevelopment of that area of downtown. 

My point is, I’m not sure Gateway Station is any more conveniently located to jobs than RUS is but. The area around Gateway getting food halls, retailers like urban outfitters, all the cool bars. Mark me down as skeptical. 
 

That’s just my opinion as a user of RUS, someone who likes the Warehouse District and thinks it’s almost as close to the dead center of Downtown Raleigh as Gateway is to Charlotte. The technical stuff - I’m a dummy in so no opinion on railroad technicalities from me. I just know, i really don’t want it to look like CLT airport. 

(and I mostly just voiced my opinion as a counter balance. It is my real opinion but I wouldn’t have posted if I didn’t see my opinion represented more) 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[JRCLT]

IMHO anything that happens at gateway will be much better than what Charlotte has now. The station is currently farther than RUS and where gateway would be. The station is 1.5 miles from Trade/Tryon. To put it in perspective, this station isn’t competing with Raleigh. Gateway station is designed to bring the station to Charlotte’s core.

Even though RUS is virtually just as far CGS, I would argue it is better connected and provides more transit options than RUS does. When and if CATS decides to get serious about commuter rail at this point in time the commuter rail services will be better served by CATS in center city than RUS.



RUS seems isolated at least for the time being, perhaps if Raleigh does get a commuter rail then the bus routes may be adjusted to accommodate it.

[carolina1792]

31 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

RUS seems isolated at least for the time being, perhaps if Raleigh does get a commuter rail then the bus routes may be adjusted to accommodate it.

 

Downtown Raleigh is heavily concentrated on the west side and future development will almost all go around the RUS or north of it in the Hillsborough/Glenwood South District.  For example, the tallest building in Raleigh by roof height will be the RUSBUS residential tower at 435 feet and will be directly connected to the RUS. Just recently a developer is seeking to redevelop two properties directly south of the RUS that are bisected by the rail lines for up to 20 stories. Could this mean a pedestrian bridge over the rail?  Either way if you consider 500 meters (0.3 mile) radius there's 10 major projects with high confidences of breaking ground in the next 4 years with quite a few other properties that are expecting redevelopment as well. 

As for the bus routes, RUSBUS will be the main hub for the Bus Rapid Transit system in Wake County so the RUS should be the busiest bus station in Wake County as well. 

 

 

[TheRealClayton]

20 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Probably not a lot. And those taking the intercity bus from Charlotte probably aren’t going to be able to leisurely afford to stroll around uptown or enjoy surrounding amenities. 

The current CTC bus station has wayyy more foot traffic. 
 

Raleigh Union Station is really nice. It will probably always have more trains than Charlotte. But I personally don’t foresee Charlotte’s Gateway being nearly as vibrant as Raleigh Union Station - particularly the surrounding area.

There might be too many boo boo’s for the area around Gateway to become heavy on foot traffic (outside of office workers) with Circa, FNB tower,  Baseball stadium, courthouse, the Mint, etc. and Graham Street being fairly fast vs. Raleigh Union Station (RUS)being in the warehouse district. 

RUS is about to start its Phase II and it looks great. The Warehouse District is awesome and developments are coming too including what could be a 40-floor tower. In addition, Commuter Rail looks very likely with the passage of the Infrastructure Bill. I think anyone who hasn’t been to RUS take a hop over there and enjoy some time in Raleigh. Also, the renderings of Gateway have looked extremely bland and similar to the airport. RUS has a very good unique look as do other proposed stations/renovations. I’d hate Charlotte to get a station that lacks character.  In other words, one needs to look no farther than RUS on how to do a train station and how to fit it in an urban environment and create a sense of place. Also, it’s a better example than comparing to a historical structure. 

The "It looks like the airport" renderings are the RFP renderings produced for the city, not what is planned, which is literally the densest project in the South. Gateway will be 4 towers over 30 floors, plus a large component along Smith St with another 20+ floor tower. Intermixed amongst the buildings will be an indoor/outdoor public spaces much like Essex Crossings in the Lower East Side. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by TheRealClayton

[TheRealClayton]

And in regards to the warehouse district providing more vibrancy, this is all the land at play right now between Carolina Pipe & Foundry, Current City Land Holdings tied to the Panthers, Gateway Station, Duke Energy's land they own, and a few projects that are active. Gateway will be just one of the catalysts for this area, and I can promise you its more comparable to Denver Union Station than it is to RUS. And Making sure that all these areas connect better with one another will be a huge part of the process. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by TheRealClayton

[kermit]

54 minutes ago, TheRealClayton said:

And in regards to the warehouse district providing more vibrancy, this is all the land at play right now between Carolina Pipe & Foundry, Current City Land Holdings tied to the Panthers, Gateway Station, Duke Energy's land they own, and a few projects that are active. Gateway will be just one of the catalysts for this area, and I can promise you its more comparable to Denver Union Station than it is to RUS. And Making sure that all these areas connect better with one another will be a huge part of the process. 

I think this images shows the trickiness of Gateway district design really well. Finding ways to make the tracks less of a circulation barrier is going to be a big determinant of how the final results feel. Is the city still working on punching MLK under the tracks?

I recognize that much of the remove the Belk discussion is cloaked in hyperbole (including what I am about to say), but... 
imagine keeping the elevated portion of the Belk (from Clarkson to Mint (ish) and converting that into a high-line ped connector of sorts. The Carson ramp could be tweaked to the West to provide a ped connection for the Gold District to the new stadium district.

Edited December 27, 2021 by kermit

[deleted account]

2 minutes ago, kermit said:

imagine keeping the elevated portion of the Belk (from Clarkson to Mint (ish) and converting that into a high-line ped connector of sorts. The Carson ramp could be tweaked to the West to provide a ped connection for the Gold District to the new stadium district.

I've had similar thoughts. Anyone that has been on the high-line in NY (or the facsimile in Chicago) knows this is a great idea. 

[15895]

I’ll say a one last thing

My crystal ball says if you’re happy with Legacy Union, you’ll be happy Gateway Station. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I’ll say a one last thing

My crystal ball says if you’re happy with Legacy Union, you’ll be happy Gateway Station. 

Ugh, this depressed me.

[TheRealClayton]

16 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I’ll say a one last thing

My crystal ball says if you’re happy with Legacy Union, you’ll be happy Gateway Station. 

This is being designed by one of the top architecture firms in the world Skidmore, Owings & Merrill. It has an incredible amount of public activation. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by TheRealClayton

[videtur quam contuor]

Clarkson street was almost certainly named for this man who was a founder of Little Switzerland among his astounding number of accomplishments*:

https://www.carolana.com/NC/Courts/hclarkson.html

If for nothing else, read about him for the Anti-Saloon League connection.

Heriot and Mary had a son Francis O Clarkson whose life is in synopsis here. I have seen his portrait hanging in the Mecklenburg County Courthouse with other Chief Judges of the past:

https://finding-aids.lib.unc.edu/03275/

The string ran out with Francis Clarkson, Junior.

*I stayed twice in the original Clarkson Cottage, 466 Laurel Lane, Little Switzerland, NC in the 1990's. It had not been improved since the 1910's. Extreme rusticity which MUST have been improved by now. Please, dear lord let it be improved with central heat, reliable plumbing. Charming it was, comfortable it was not.

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by tarhoosier